any point in moving from 4gigs to 8gigs ram?

stag3

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2005
3,623
0
76
system specs below.
its just cheap right now for another 4gigs (2x2gb)
i have 4, wondering if it's worth getting another 8
will it make any diff?

win7 pro x64

during some heavy gaming, i have gotten the please turn on virtual memory popups as
i disable the swap drive since i've never needed it.

thoughts?
 

TemjinGold

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2006
3,050
65
91
system specs below.
its just cheap right now for another 4gigs (2x2gb)
i have 4, wondering if it's worth getting another 8
will it make any diff?

win7 pro x64

during some heavy gaming, i have gotten the please turn on virtual memory popups as
i disable the swap drive since i've never needed it.


thoughts?

Huh?
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Some games REQUIRE a swap file even though they do not come close to using all available memory. Even if you went to 8GB, they would still ask for the swap file. I would just create a small, fixed swap file and see how it goes.
 

stag3

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2005
3,623
0
76

i disable the swap file as 4gigs has been plenty for awhile now.
when playing modern warfare 2, i get kicked out and a popup that says virtual memory is low, please enable virtual memory or something to that effect.

will 7 run better with 8 gigs? or should i just save the 75 bucks and wait for a future upgrade?
 

MagickMan

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2008
7,460
3
76
Some games REQUIRE a swap file even though they do not come close to using all available memory. Even if you went to 8GB, they would still ask for the swap file. I would just create a small, fixed swap file and see how it goes.

This. Just setup a small fixed swap file, like 1GB.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
during some heavy gaming, i have gotten the please turn on virtual memory popups as
i disable the swap drive since i've never needed it.

So stop that, disabling your pagefile doesn't do what you think it does.
 

Sahakiel

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2001
1,746
0
86
If it's cheap, go buy another 4 gigs and slap it in your rig.

Then, enable your pagefile on a new 4GB RAM disk.
 

Emulex

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2001
9,759
1
71
there is a thread that pages out memory that hasn't been used much so that you can not run out of ram. its as simple as that. you could overcommit the ram segment for your o/s (and the o/s itself) so it starts emptying the rams to the disk before it hits the full mark.

iirc for kernel side you can actually change this page mode % full start , not sure about user programs.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Well, up until someone suggests listening to you.

And yet you haven't proven me wrong about anything and have already resorted to ad hom attacks.

you could overcommit the ram segment for your o/s (and the o/s itself) so it starts emptying the rams to the disk before it hits the full mark.

Just by turning on the computer you overcommit your VM, that's just how modern OSes work. I think Solaris might be strict by default, but that's the exception and not the rule.

And the pagefile is only used for things that don't have another backing store on disk, unmodified open files, binaries, shared libraries, etc all have a backing store in the original file so they never touch the pagefile but can still be evicted from memory when it gets low and will just be paged back in when needed.

iirc for kernel side you can actually change this page mode % full start , not sure about user programs.

There is a registry key to disable the paging of kernel memory, however the kernel itself is relatively small and the only things that might get paged out are unused things like serial port drivers so there's no real benefit to disabling that.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,367
12,573
126
www.anyf.ca
since it's 64-bit and it can support it, I would go ahead and do it. Even if you don't use it NOW in the future when you get a new pc you can always turn that one into a server and at least it will have max ram. For gaming it might actually be beneficial though. Wont hurt to do it if it's cheap.

I would also reenable the page file. I don't know about the vista/7 architecture but I know in xp and before, windows insists on using the page file regardless how much ram is available. Just put it on a seperate drive if performance is your reasoning.
 

Sahakiel

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2001
1,746
0
86
And yet you haven't proven me wrong about anything and have already resorted to ad hom attacks.
You only think it's ad hominem because you don't like thinking you're wrong. The response I quoted is a rephrased version of the response that you directed at me, yet, somehow, not only was it a personal attack, it was the first. No wonder you completely missed the reasoning behind my first post.
Look at the posts before my first post in here before you start picking phrases out of context to support your inflated ego. If you want to turn this into flamebait, take it to PM's. I only have 20 messages, you're welcome to try filling the rest. Otherwise, address the topic by actually reading the thread before you launch into your own long-winded post that hardly even touches on what previous posters have written. (hint: I'm not the only one in here. Read stag and eng posts for my reasoning. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but dismissing it out of hand is unreasonable)
 
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Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
You only think it's ad hominem because you don't like thinking you're wrong.

No, I think it's an ad hom because it was directed at me, personally.

The response I quoted is a rephrased version of the response that you directed at me, yet, somehow, not only was it a personal attack, it was the first.

No, my post was directed at your advice, not you. There's a difference.

Look at the posts before my first post in here before you start picking phrases out of context to support your inflated ego.

The phrases I quoted of yours weren't out of context.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but dismissing it out of hand is unreasonable)

I only dismissed it so tersely because bad ideas like that get presented all of the time. At first glance it does seem to make sense because everyone thinks that when memory gets low the pagefile is automatically the source of any slowdown. But that's not how VM works and the pagefile is only 1 source/target of paging when memory is low, pretty much every other open file is also a backingstore for data in memory and is a potential source of paging so making 1 of those files fast is going to have minimal affect.
 

Sahakiel

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2001
1,746
0
86
No, I think it's an ad hom because it was directed at me, personally.

No, my post was directed at your advice, not you. There's a difference.
The same concept between my posts, so either you first came up with ad hominem, or neither of us did. Make up your mind. Personally, I didn't even consider either a personal attack until you took offense and started this crusade.
If you need an example of ad hominem to understand why the previous posts were not, here is one: I guess elite status simply means the poster blatantly crushes opposition to the party line and ignoring everything else.
Note it doesn't support or refute the topic at hand. On the other hand, what you seem to be taking as a personal attack does in fact overturn your previous post. I assume it seems personal to you only because I purposefully phrased it the way you phrased your remark. It seems doing so made it more amusing than I first thought.


I only dismissed it so tersely because bad ideas like that get presented all of the time. At first glance it does seem to make sense because everyone thinks that when memory gets low the pagefile is automatically the source of any slowdown. But that's not how VM works and the pagefile is only 1 source/target of paging when memory is low, pretty much every other open file is also a backingstore for data in memory and is a potential source of paging so making 1 of those files fast is going to have minimal affect.
Ah, see, that's what I meant by taking a phrase out of context. You're assuming it's a bad idea because of a preconception and assumed the advice was given in that previous context. It wasn't and I told you why in my previous post. Therefore, I assumed you were taking my first post out of context.

On a separate vein, when physical memory is used up, the pagefile is generally the default option for next source for storing new temporary data. Usually, there are other options to free up main memory before resorting to disks, but in the end, if you're out, you're out. Photoshop has had a scratch disk option for years due to permanently exceeding capacity, but the concept is not unique, nor is it the only one. Of course in that type of situation, speeding up the page file will speed up performance. However, the underlying issue is you're using up RAM in the first place. Fixing that problem gives better ROI because of the massive discrepancy in performance, which I think is what you are trying to insist even though it isn't even a topic of discussion.


Now, we already know disabling the page file is causing him problems.
We know he's currently not using enough memory to consistently reach RAM capacity.
We know he seems intent on upgrading at some time.
We don't know how much memory he will eventually use before switching to a new system core.
We don't know how much the extra memory will cost him.
We don't know what's an acceptable price for him in terms of money, time, or convenience.
We don't know when he will be upgrading.

Assuming the extra memory is cheap, he may as well put it to use. Other than running bloatware or programs requiring large temp space, his best option would be to turn on his pagefile and run it off a RAM disk given what we do know of the situation and providing reasonable assumptions on what we don't know.
His page file wouldn't be there for extra memory space or performance. It would be for fixing a problem. Since he would have the memory to spare, why bother taking up a chunk of disk space and also placing yet another load on it? Assuming Windows will use the page file once it's enabled, there's no point in degrading his performance or disk capacity when an option exists to maintain it at the previous level. If he runs into a program that does use more than he has available, that's a different topic.

If the memory is expensive, then the previous option may no longer be the best option. The definition of expensive lies in his personal tolerance. He may not wish to spend more than a few dollars. He may not wish to invest in time and labor for installation (don't laugh, I've known a few like that). He may weigh his options and decide it'd be better to wait a bit and put the money towards a new system. He may decide the problems he's having are worth the cost of fixing them.
 

hanspeter

Member
Nov 5, 2008
157
0
76
Creating a ram disk out of usable ram to store the page file on?

I guess that not creating that ram disk and disable the page file would be a better idea.
 

lsv

Golden Member
Dec 18, 2009
1,610
0
71
lol look at you queefs argue. where's that xkcd comic

just get 8 gigs of ram, you'll need it eventually and it's not that much $. big whoop
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
You're assuming it's a bad idea because of a preconception and assumed the advice was given in that previous context.

No, I know putting the pagefile on a RAM disk a bad idea regardless of context. I can't think of a single situation that would make it a good idea.

On a separate vein, when physical memory is used up, the pagefile is generally the default option for next source for storing new temporary data

Only data that's been modified or has no backing store on disk already, for everything that's read-only or unmodified it's original file is the backing store so it'll never get put in the pagefile.

Photoshop has had a scratch disk option for years due to permanently exceeding capacity, but the concept is not unique, nor is it the only one.

Photoshop has a scratch disk because it was designed on Mac OS <X where there was no real memory management so they had to do it all themselves. If it were written from scratch right now I doubt they would've done that.

We don't know how much the extra memory will cost him.
We don't know what's an acceptable price for him in terms of money, time, or convenience.

Not exactly, but he used the term "cheap" so we can assume that it's an acceptable price.

Other than running bloatware or programs requiring large temp space, his best option would be to turn on his pagefile and run it off a RAM disk given what we do know of the situation and providing reasonable assumptions on what we don't know.

No, his best option would be to put the memory in and let Win7 do it's job. Between normal filesystem caching and SuperFetch the memory will get used and he'll benefit better than wasting it on a pagefile that will hardly ever get touched. Putting the pagefile on there is essentially reserving that memory for something that will never happen.

It would be for fixing a problem.

The only problem I see so far is that he's disabled his pagefile, and the proper fix for that is to reenable it on his system drive and leave it system managed.

Since he would have the memory to spare, why bother taking up a chunk of disk space and also placing yet another load on it?

Because the memory would be better served actually being used by the system.

Assuming Windows will use the page file once it's enabled, there's no point in degrading his performance or disk capacity when an option exists to maintain it at the previous level.

Windows doesn't just use the pagefile for fun, enabling it won't automatically cause a performance degradation and in most circumstances it'll help. And wasting disk space on it is a lot cheaper than wasting memory.
 

hanspeter

Member
Nov 5, 2008
157
0
76
Photoshop has a scratch disk because it was designed on Mac OS <X where there was no real memory management so they had to do it all themselves. If it were written from scratch right now I doubt they would've done that.

They would. 32bit Photoshop will still only have 2GB (or 3GB) of user space to play with. Using the scratch disk it can reuse its own user space.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
They would. 32bit Photoshop will still only have 2GB (or 3GB) of user space to play with. Using the scratch disk it can reuse its own user space.

Or they could use AWE, not sure if OS X has something similar or not though.
 
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