Any vegans on ATOT?

[Kaido]

I guess my main problem with this argument is that you're saying that it's better than a bad diet. Well, no surprise there. Of course an extremely well-managed diet by an educated person is going to make you feel healthy, as opposed to a poor diet from a person who doesn't care.

Yeah, pretty much that. But it's the same with any diet, not just vegan. An extreme example is that girl who lived primarily on chicken nuggets:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...s-eating-McDonalds-chicken-nuggets-age-2.html

 

[cyclistca]

I ate them all

 

[nehalem256]

I have done vegetarian, vegan, raw vegan, and fruitarian (not out of ethical reasons, solely for energy). Been on fruitarian a good month now, it's pretty awesome. It technically falls under the raw vegan category (fruitarian is typically a minimum of 75% fruit, plus some dark leafy greens, nuts, and seeds - and tomatoes, cucumbers, and bell peppers are all fruits). It's ridiculously easy to follow (all you need is a blender & a knife with a cutting board) & provides more energ than vegan does. Vegan can get really expensive & time-consuming for prepwork, plus you have to go shopping all the time if you want to do raw vegan.

Regarding energy, most Americans follow the SAD diet (Standard American Diet), which is why heart disease is the leading cause of death, plus obesity, diabetes, heart attacks, heart failure, etc. imo, food is the best medicine. Clean up your diet, feel better. That doesn't necessarily mean you need to go vegan; I've felt equally as good on a bodybuilding diet filled with meat & carbs. But there are also levels to feeling good: meat is good, veggie is better, fruit is best in my experience. Recovery times from working out on a fruit-based diet are incredible.

Actually if you want to avoid heart disease I would advise not going vegetarian:

It showed that non-meat eaters have double the risk of allergies and a 50 per cent increased risk of heart attacks and cancer, CBS Atlanta reports.

They are also significantly more likely to experience depression and anxiety.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...-healthy-poorer-quality-life-meat-eaters.html

Seems like being a vegetarians are really the ones with the SAD diet. Probably because they miss out on the joys of meat

 

[GrumpyMan]

I like Vodka, which mine is made from potatoes or sometimes grain, therefore I am a Vegan today.

 

[Crono]

Actually if you want to avoid heart disease I would advise not going vegetarian:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...-healthy-poorer-quality-life-meat-eaters.html

Seems like being a vegetarians are really the ones with the SAD diet. Probably because they miss out on the joys of meat

That is a single study of Austrian vegetarians.

 

[bteeter]

Vegan here, not raw vegan though, that is just crazy. I have been for about 5 years now and it has definitely helped me stay healthier.

Favorite meal? Veggie and tofu curries, bean burritos, salads, kale, fried tofu, etc.

You will feel different when you transition. You will eat a LOT. This is normal. Vegan food is not as dense or calorie dense (generally) as meat based food. You will also poop a lot. You may or may not feel better or have better workouts, etc. Vegan diets don't work for everyone. It works pretty well for me though.

Good luck.

 

[Arkitech]

Incredible amount of information in this post. Especially Kaido, thanks man. I appreciate the effort, I plan on going through many of those resources.

My goal is to go raw for at least 1 week at the minimum and maybe 30 days or a little longer at the max. From what I've researched it's easily possible for a raw vegan to get all the nutrients a human needs without meat. However I think the reason there is a lot of hostility directed at vegans (and raw vegans) is that *some* of them tend to have a holier than thou type of attitude. And also I've noticed some vegans have horrible limited diets, basically eating just a few of the same foods day in and day out. Naturally on a diet like that, there are bound to be deficiencies.

I know a lot of people on this forum don't believe in God, but I believe that there's a plant created for almost everything that we need to stay healthy and plants to cure us when we're sick. I just found out yesterday that bananas can cure warts. Cayenne pepper can lower blood pressure, stop bleeding and in some cases even stop a heart attack in progress. Don't get me wrong I love bacon, rib tips, steak, burgers, etc.. as much if not more than the next guy. However I realize that a person eating a balanced %100 plant based diet can rapidly improve their health. That improvement is even faster on a properly planned raw diet.

 

[William Gaatjes]

When i make rice with vegetables and meat or rice with pasta saus and cheese i am already at a 80/20 ratio for vegetables/meat. Meat becomes a lot more tasteful with enough vegetables around it. A one person portion of meat for one meal, i divide over 2 to 3 days. And my digestive system has improved since i listen to a tip of a colleague of mine to use olive oil to wok/bake my vegetables and meat instead of butter. Olive oil does wonders to stabilize a sensitive digestive system. Occasionally i use potatoes and vegetables and meat but not often.

 

[lxskllr]

I eat minimal amounts of meat, but would never consider being vegan. Dairy is primary ingredient in my diet, and I will not quit that out of choice.

 

[Crono]

Incredible amount of information in this post. Especially Kaido, thanks man. I appreciate the effort, I plan on going through many of those resources.

My goal is to go raw for at least 1 week at the minimum and maybe 30 days or a little longer at the max. From what I've researched it's easily possible for a raw vegan to get all the nutrients a human needs without meat. However I think the reason there is a lot of hostility directed at vegans (and raw vegans) is that *some* of them tend to have a holier than thou type of attitude. And also I've noticed some vegans have horrible limited diets, basically eating just a few of the same foods day in and day out. Naturally on a diet like that, there are bound to be deficiencies.

I know a lot of people on this forum don't believe in God, but I believe that there's a plant created for almost everything that we need to stay healthy and plants to cure us when we're sick. I just found out yesterday that bananas can cure warts. Cayenne pepper can lower blood pressure, stop bleeding and in some cases even stop a heart attack in progress. Don't get me wrong I love bacon, rib tips, steak, burgers, etc.. as much if not more than the next guy. However I realize that a person eating a balanced %100 plant based diet can rapidly improve their health. That improvement is even faster on a properly planned raw diet.

You might want to ease into raw diet because the increase in fiber intake from even a moderate vegan diet - unless you are used to it - can make easily cause gastrointestinal discomfort at first and also make you hit the bathroom a lot.

There's one vitamin you have to be careful about if you stick with the vegan diet long term, and that's B12. All other vitamins, fatty acids, minerals, etc can be obtained sufficiently or even abundantly versus a non-vegan diet, but B12 (which is synthesized in nature by bacteria) is hard to come by in diet alone, though there is evidence of it in being present in fermented foods or tea like kombucha. If you are on a vegan diet past a month you should consider taking a B12 supplement.

Other than that, you can make a fairly healthy diet plan by eating a variety of fruits, vegetables, and grains. Ignore the nonsense some people spew about insufficient protein in the vegan diet, as you can easily get all amino acids you need without meat. Even "incomplete" protein sources can have enough of the essential amino acids for even someone with high daily protein requirement.

Also, I recommend going for as much leafy greens (kale, spinach, collard greens, broccoli, and others) as possible, since they tend to be extremely rich in most of the nutrients needed. After that you want a spectrum of colors when it comes to fruits and veggies, and a variety of nuts and seeds, which are rich in unsaturated fats, protein, and a balance of fatty acids.

Two general resources I like: Nutrition Data and WHFoods. Good ways to double check the nutrition of what you eat. Great for vegans and non-vegans alike. I've only been a vegan for a little over a year, but I plan on sticking with it for life because of what I've read and seen (the aforementioned The China Study and several Netflix documentaries being particularly compelling). It's possible to eat a relatively healthy diet without being a vegan, but almost all research and anecdotal evidence points to diets rich in fruits, vegetables, grains, legumes, seeds, and nuts as being very healthy. For anyone who doesn't want to go to the extreme of a vegan or a vegetarian diet, I would highly recommend trying to follow a Mediterranean diet, as there's a vast amount of research pointing to the health benefits and average longevity of people who follow that diet.

 

[natto fire]

You might want to ease into raw diet because the increase in fiber intake from even a moderate vegan diet - unless you are used to it - can make easily cause gastrointestinal discomfort at first and also make you hit the bathroom a lot.

There's one vitamin you have to be careful about if you stick with the vegan diet long term, and that's B12. All other vitamins, fatty acids, minerals, etc can be obtained sufficiently or even abundantly versus a non-vegan diet, but B12 (which is synthesized in nature by bacteria) is hard to come by in diet alone, though there is evidence of it in being present in fermented foods or tea like kombucha. If you are on a vegan diet past a month you should consider taking a B12 supplement.

Other than that, you can make a fairly healthy diet plan by eating a variety of fruits, vegetables, and grains. Ignore the nonsense some people spew about insufficient protein in the vegan diet, as you can easily get all amino acids you need without meat. Even "incomplete" protein sources can have enough of the essential amino acids for even someone with high daily protein requirement.

Also, I recommend going for as much leafy greens (kale, spinach, collard greens, broccoli, and others) as possible, since they tend to be extremely rich in most of the nutrients needed. After that you want a spectrum of colors when it comes to fruits and veggies, and a variety of nuts and seeds, which are rich in unsaturated fats, protein, and a balance of fatty acids.

Two general resources I like: Nutrition Data and WHFoods. Good ways to double check the nutrition of what you eat. Great for vegans and non-vegans alike. I've only been a vegan for a little over a year, but I plan on sticking with it for life because of what I've read and seen (the aforementioned The China Study and several Netflix documentaries being particularly compelling). It's possible to eat a relatively healthy diet without being a vegan, but almost all research and anecdotal evidence points to diets rich in fruits, vegetables, grains, legumes, seeds, and nuts as being very healthy. For anyone who doesn't want to go to the extreme of a vegan or a vegetarian diet, I would highly recommend trying to follow a Mediterranean diet, as there's a vast amount of research pointing to the health benefits and average longevity of people who follow that diet.

Depending on how militant your vegan-ism is, technically the cultures used to ferment foods are animals. That said, kimchi is an excellent source of B12, and happens to taste like a much better version of sauerkraut, IMO.

Proteins are easy to get from grains such as quinoa, farro, buckwheat, and amaranth, which also provide iron and magnesium.

 

[Kaido]

There's one vitamin you have to be careful about if you stick with the vegan diet long term, and that's B12. All other vitamins, fatty acids, minerals, etc can be obtained sufficiently or even abundantly versus a non-vegan diet, but B12 (which is synthesized in nature by bacteria) is hard to come by in diet alone, though there is evidence of it in being present in fermented foods or tea like kombucha. If you are on a vegan diet past a month you should consider taking a B12 supplement.

B12 is an interesting subject. The hardcore vegans I know take B12 supplements (apparently it has to be taken sub-lingual, aka under your tongue, either with a drop or with a shop, since your body can't absorb it in pill form, even though they sell it that way). However, as I've been digging into the B12 question since trying out the fruit diet, it turns out there's something like only a handful of people per year who actually suffer from deficiency issues...like half a dozen or a dozen in America or something (low levels being different from a deficiency that causes major issues).

I'd rather just eat a burger once in awhile :biggrin:

 

[Kaido]

Proteins are easy to get from grains such as quinoa, farro, buckwheat, and amaranth, which also provide iron and magnesium.

I know a few people who are gluten-free vegan by choice...I'm gluten-free but not by choice

 

[vailr]

B12 is an interesting subject. The hardcore vegans I know take B12 supplements (apparently it has to be taken sub-lingual, aka under your tongue, either with a drop or with a shop, since your body can't absorb it in pill form, even though they sell it that way).

There's 2 forms of B12 supplements: methylcobalamin & cyanocobalamin. It seems counter-intuitive to be needing a B12 supplement with either methanol or cyanide, but anyway: the methyl- form is supposedly more efficient at actually increasing the blood levels of B12. The cyano- form of B12 is the more commonly found on store shelves & also usually cheaper.

 

[destrekor]

There's 2 forms of B12 supplements: methylcobalamin & cyanocobalamin. It seems counter-intuitive to be needing a B12 supplement with either methanol or cyanide, but anyway: the methyl- form is supposedly more efficient at actually increasing the blood levels of B12. The cyano- form of B12 is the more commonly found on store shelves & also usually cheaper.

Neither methanol nor cyanide are found in the B12 supplements you listed. Chemistry is more complex than simply forcing similar-sounding things to behave the same.


As for uptake efficiency, yes there are probably differences, but the key is don't overdo it, and also you likely needn't fear under-doing it.

I also don't buy the idea that B12 can only be absorbed under the tongue. Outside of rare moments, and mostly only with people that hold various leaves in their mouth, chew, and let sit to absorb the drugs, you just aren't going to be holding most foods and drinks we consume to absorb important nutrients through the mouth.
That being the case, if B12 required that, unless we truly only need the tiniest nearly undefinable and minuscule amount, we'd all be deficient.

Since we are not all deficient, it must be absorbed along the same pathways with all of our other nutrients.

 

[Eug]

However, as I've been digging into the B12 question since trying out the fruit diet, it turns out there's something like only a handful of people per year who actually suffer from deficiency issues...like half a dozen or a dozen in America or something (low levels being different from a deficiency that causes major issues).

I'd rather just eat a burger once in awhile :biggrin:

Well then, you're not reading the right material, or are not approaching this logically

B12 deficiency is actually quite common in the general population, and is even more common in strict vegans who don't supplement.

You don't have to have major issues like psychological problems or major fatigue to be considered to have a B12 deficiency.

Furthermore, one of the reasons it isn't even more common in vegetarians than it is is because many vegans cheat on their diets, and also because it can take a very long time to manifest itself with significant symptoms. But if you're looking for major issues to show up before diagnosing a B12 deficiency, then ur doin it rong.

 

[Kaido]

B12 deficiency is actually quite common in the general population, and is even more common in strict vegans who don't supplement.

Do you have some links about this? I've hard a hard time finding much solid information beyond vegan bro-science. Severe deficiency seems much more rare than just having low levels based on what I've read.

 

[Kaido]

I also don't buy the idea that B12 can only be absorbed under the tongue. Outside of rare moments, and mostly only with people that hold various leaves in their mouth, chew, and let sit to absorb the drugs, you just aren't going to be holding most foods and drinks we consume to absorb important nutrients through the mouth.

That being the case, if B12 required that, unless we truly only need the tiniest nearly undefinable and minuscule amount, we'd all be deficient.

Since we are not all deficient, it must be absorbed along the same pathways with all of our other nutrients.

When one of my vegan friends told me she does yearly shots, I said I'd just eat a burger occasionally instead :biggrin: Per Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12_deficiency#Treatment

B12 can be supplemented in healthy subjects by oral pill; sublingual pill, liquid, or strip; intranasal spray; transdermal patch or by injection. B12 is available singly or in combination with other supplements. B12 supplements are available in forms including cyanocobalamin, hydroxocobalamin, methylcobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin (sometimes called "cobamamide" or "dibencozide"). Oral treatments involve giving 250 µg to 1 mg of B12 daily.[52]

Vitamin B12 can be given as intramuscular or subcutaneous injections of hydroxycobalamin, methylcobalamin, or cyanocobalamin. Body stores (in the liver) are partly repleted with half a dozen injections in the first couple of weeks (full repletion of liver stores requires about 20 injections) and then maintenance with monthly injections throughout the life of the patient. Vitamin B12 can also be easily self-administered by injection by the patient, using the same fine-gauge needles and syringes used for self-administration of insulin.

B12 has traditionally been given parenterally (by injection) to ensure absorption. However, oral replacement is now an accepted route, as it has become increasingly appreciated that sufficient quantities of B12 are absorbed when large doses are given. This absorption does not rely on the presence of intrinsic factor or an intact ileum. Generally 1 to 2 mg daily is required as a large dose.[53] By contrast, the typical Western diet contains 5–7 µg of B12 (Food and Drug Administration (FDA) Daily Value[54]). It has been appreciated since the 1960s that B12 deficiency in adults resulting from malabsorption (including loss of intrinsic factor) can be treated with oral B12 supplements when given in sufficient doses. When given in oral doses ranging from 0.1–2 mg daily, B12 can be absorbed in a pathway that does not require an intact ileum or intrinsic factor. In two studies, oral treatment with 2 mg per day was as effective as monthly 1 mg injections.[55][56]

I think most people do the drops under the tongue now. I don't remember the scientific explanation behind it, but you can absorb B12 from meat since the animal has already processed it in such a way that your body can absorb it through eating stuff like red meat, but not just by taking a pill. Kind of weird.

 

[Kaido]

I eat minimal amounts of meat, but would never consider being vegan. Dairy is primary ingredient in my diet, and I will not quit that out of choice.

Out of all the things I'm allergic to, I miss dairy the most. They have decent replacements for milk, ice cream, etc. but there's nothing on the market that replaces cheese. The closest thing avaliable is Daiya cheese, but it gives me (and everyone I know who has eaten it) stomach issues :thumbsdown:

 

[Eug]

Out of all the things I'm allergic to, I miss dairy the most. They have decent replacements for milk, ice cream, etc. but there's nothing on the market that replaces cheese. The closest thing avaliable is Daiya cheese, but it gives me (and everyone I know who has eaten it) stomach issues :thumbsdown:

Are you really allergic to dairy, or just lactose intolerant? Most people who claim to be allergic to dairy really are not.

Lactase enzyme supplements will solve this problem for most people. But of course, that means cheating on a vegan or fruitarian diet.

Do you have some links about this? I've hard a hard time finding much solid information beyond vegan bro-science. Severe deficiency seems much more rare than just having low levels based on what I've read.

That's my point. If you're looking only at severe deficiency, then you're looking at this all wrong. You don't want to get anywhere near severe deficiency. Hell, you don't want to get to low levels either.

To put it in practical terms. Let's say your normal level of hemoglobin is 145, but because of a B12 deficiency, you drop down to say 138. That is still well within the normal range for males, but do you really want to be there?

I'd rather fix it then, than wait until I'm at 115 and with other symptoms too. Or better yet, prevent that initial drop in the first place by eating a well-balanced diet, or in the case of vegans, taking supplements.

 

[shortylickens]

How do you know if someone is a vegan?



He'll tell you.

 

[Kaido]

Incredible amount of information in this post. Especially Kaido, thanks man. I appreciate the effort, I plan on going through many of those resources.

My goal is to go raw for at least 1 week at the minimum and maybe 30 days or a little longer at the max. From what I've researched it's easily possible for a raw vegan to get all the nutrients a human needs without meat. However I think the reason there is a lot of hostility directed at vegans (and raw vegans) is that *some* of them tend to have a holier than thou type of attitude. And also I've noticed some vegans have horrible limited diets, basically eating just a few of the same foods day in and day out. Naturally on a diet like that, there are bound to be deficiencies.

I know a lot of people on this forum don't believe in God, but I believe that there's a plant created for almost everything that we need to stay healthy and plants to cure us when we're sick. I just found out yesterday that bananas can cure warts. Cayenne pepper can lower blood pressure, stop bleeding and in some cases even stop a heart attack in progress. Don't get me wrong I love bacon, rib tips, steak, burgers, etc.. as much if not more than the next guy. However I realize that a person eating a balanced %100 plant based diet can rapidly improve their health. That improvement is even faster on a properly planned raw diet.

For me, it's just fun to change up my diet once in awhile, especially given my food limitations due to allergies. My tastebuds changed in my early 20's - I used to hate stuff like pickles, tuna fish, etc. and all of a sudden they started tasting good, so I've tried out a lot more foods since then, especially international foods like sushi, Thai curries, etc. There's loads of stuff that most Americans aren't exposed to, unless you happen to live in a city that has a lot of variety, like NYC.

One of the big discoveries for my own diet was this: "healthy food can taste good". Sounds obvious, but given the fact that most "healthy" food I had tried did not taste good, that was a big revelation. I always associated healthy food with either bland or bad-tasting dishes, or having to spend a lot of time making a "gourmet" meal rather than just throwing stuff together. Turns out you can cook tasty, healthy food pretty quickly if you want to, especially if you pick up some tools like a spiralizer to make things a little more fun.

 

[Kaido]

Are you really allergic to dairy, or just lactose intolerant? Most people who claim to be allergic to dairy really are not.

Lactase enzyme supplements will solve this problem for most people. But of course, that means cheating on a vegan or fruitarian diet.

Full-on...no lactose, whey, or casein. Can't do any animal milk, including sheep & goat

 

[Kaido]

How do you know if someone is a vegan?

He'll tell you.

To be fair, I don't think I've ever met a "vegangelical" person IRL. They're portrayed that way on TV a lot & it's easy to rally around the idea of hating on someone who is pushing their opinion on you, but most people I know with a veggie-based diet pretty much keep it to themselves because it's a personal belief. Plus, we all know that going Vegan gives you superpowers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqqGZBRBLcM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLpCZ8g5uK8

:awe:

 

[Arkitech]

For me, it's just fun to change up my diet once in awhile, especially given my food limitations due to allergies. My tastebuds changed in my early 20's - I used to hate stuff like pickles, tuna fish, etc. and all of a sudden they started tasting good, so I've tried out a lot more foods since then, especially international foods like sushi, Thai curries, etc. There's loads of stuff that most Americans aren't exposed to, unless you happen to live in a city that has a lot of variety, like NYC.

One of the big discoveries for my own diet was this: "healthy food can taste good". Sounds obvious, but given the fact that most "healthy" food I had tried did not taste good, that was a big revelation. I always associated healthy food with either bland or bad-tasting dishes, or having to spend a lot of time making a "gourmet" meal rather than just throwing stuff together. Turns out you can cook tasty, healthy food pretty quickly if you want to, especially if you pick up some tools like a spiralizer to make things a little more fun.

Any good recipes you'd like to share?