Anybody else unimpressed with new midrange Nvidia GPUs, and much higher MSRP?

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moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
It looks physically small because it is! Its still the fastest consumer grade GPU out there, and almost certainly the fastest that can be produced right now at a halfway sane price.

I'm not sure why people get emotive about this - NV are really stunningly predictable just now. ~30(?)% cumulative increase in top performance year on year. The top chip then gets a premium, as reasonably befits the fastest card in the world.

In all honesty, you can see them keeping it up for years to come too - Big pascal, then medium Volta (HBM2, much more mature process so bigger chips, architectural gains) then big Volta, by which time there will likely be a usable die shrink and so on.

Very easy to deal with as a consumer. Pick what performance (increase) you want and you can almost preorder the card

It might seem a bit calculated, but I suspect we do quite well out of it over time. The alternative 'moonbogg' style of approach - 980ti right off that bat at 28nm or something insane?! - would have the odd triumph but also the odd total fiasco.

FTFY...also, this would be better for all of us.
 

flopper

Senior member
Dec 16, 2005
739
19
76
The effect of needing a greater absolute increase in frequency to see the same percentage increase over a higher base clock and a lower IPC are potentially problematic for hopes of Pascal OCing like Maxwell.

we will see 2.5ghz OC on water most likely
thirdparty cards with added circuits.
 

Pneumothorax

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2002
1,182
23
81
It looks physically small because it is! Its still the fastest consumer grade GPU out there, and almost certainly the fastest that can be produced right now at a halfway sane price.

I'm not sure why people get emotive about this - NV are really stunningly predictable just now. ~30(?)% cumulative increase in top performance year on year. The top chip then gets a premium, as reasonably befits the fastest card in the world.

In all honesty, you can see them keeping it up for years to come too - Big pascal, then medium Volta (HBM2, much more mature process so bigger chips, architectural gains) then big Volta, by which time there will likely be a usable die shrink and so on.

Very easy to deal with as a consumer. Pick what performance (increase) you want and you can almost preorder the card

It might seem a bit calculated, but I suspect we do quite well out of it over time. The alternative 'moonshot' style of approach - 980ti right off that bat at 28nm or something insane?! - would have the odd triumph but also the odd total fiasco.
Oh, it's definitely calculated by Nvidia. It's not for benefit of the consumer it is for a corporation to make money and to remain in business with future node shrinks only available every 4-5 years for the price of blood, sweat and tears.
The moonshot approach would allow us to dump only $500-600 every 4 years and remain at state of the art.
 

Qwertilot

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2013
1,604
257
126
Sure, the big thing is for their benefit but I really don't think it hurts us either. If they could reliably go much faster then they would - a 2 year doubling in performance cycle would help them a lot with the faster upgrade cycle.

Isn't everyone on a basically 3-4 year upgrade cycle as it stands? That's about as long as it takes for these progressive changes to hit 2 x performance.

Compulsive upgraders get rather badly stung of course, but honestly that just takes a bit of self discipline. Or enough spare cash to not care

I do definitely think that we very likely get better cards at the end of each cycle with the current approach.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
This is actually terrible If 1080 is only 25% faster than the reference 980Ti then it makes it barely any faster then my aftermarket 980Ti which I unfortunately burned.(My 980Ti is itself about 20% faster then stock 980Ti) I had a leak in the WC. When is the real GPU launching? (I mean GP200 or the big die from AMD whichever is first)

Do some research for your next card to protect yourself. Gigabyte Xtreme series have Aerospace PCB coating, which makes them water resistant.

http://ca.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5726#kf

Might want to look into that series of cards next time.

HOCP seems to have swallowed it completely. Either extremely gullible or captured, financially or otherwise.

$649 Fury X has an AIO CLC and cards such as $299 HD6950/$369 6970 had a vapor chamber back in 2010. There is nothing exotic about the vapor chamber design. You can clearly see the soldering on the top left and the vapor chamber right underneath the HD6950's aluminum heatsink.





All NV did is put on a higher quality fan, nickel plated the heatsink (the 6950/6970's heatsink actually looks to have larger surface area than the Titan X's heatsink) and manufactured the top cover out of aluminum. The $70 and $100 premiums for FE cards are there to get free $ from tri-/quad-SLI users, OEM customers who buy pre-builds, gamers who water cool, and those with miniITX rigs. It has little to do with the cost of the reference blower or component quality. NV is essentially artificially raising the price under the guise that they don't want to compete with AIBs. The reality is probably more to do with NV simply raising prices on a subset of its loyal customers, which happen to be loyal blower/reference card buyers. They can get away with it because their customer base keeps buying so why not try raising the price on reference cards and marketing them as Founders Edition? Free $$$ to nV.

To add on to this post, this chart from RS is this 980 Ti sample's performance at factory OC/boost. This chart is that same card compared to a manual OC. A 11% gain over aftermarket stock and about 37% over reference stock...

Yup, that's why AIB 980Tis were so amazing, crushing everything from 290X/390X/980 and Fury/Fury X. 980Ti out of the box isn't special but it was with an OC. Unfortunately we know exactly how NV marketing works:

>>> Emphasis overclocking for 12 months straight because 970/980/980Ti OCed really well.

> Then once Pascal launches, at all costs compare reference 1075mhz 980Ti to a 1733mhz Pascal 1080.
http://www.overclock3d.net/articles/gpu_displays/gtx_1080_vs_gtx_980ti_-_specifications_comparison/1

That's why the comparison of 1070/1080 to Titan X is a marketing move for the masses. On paper it sounds like a $379 1070 is faster than a $999 GPU. In reality, it's going to be more like a $449 launch 1070 may actually be slower than a $530-550 AIB 980Ti (prices before 1070 showed up). It's still a big improvement but nowhere near as good as $999 -> $379. Of course, I also predict NV shifting driver focus to Pascal which means I wouldn't be surprised if 1070 OC beats 980Ti OC over time.

Look at modern games coming out now. 780Ti is starting to lose to an R9 290 in AAA titles...jaw dropping for a $700 card from the same generation to start losing in popular titles to a $400 card.





Maxwell -> Pascal may not be like this for DX12 games but what if it is? If after Pascal comes out, we start seeing Maxwell 970/980/980Ti cards dropping in their relative standing to R9 390/390X/Fury X cards, that would be the 2nd consecutive NV generation that degraded "magically" as soon as new cards launched. Over the next 6 months as more modern games and esp. DX12 games are added to test suits, replacing older games, we'll see what Maxwell is really capable of against Pascal.

TPU is showing that GP104 has 80 ROPs instead 64 ROPs on 980.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Oh snap!

EVGATech_ChrisB, a member of EVGA Tech support and a moderator of the EVGA Forums.

"We can confirm that 1080 cards only support up to 2-way SLI and anything above this will not work, no matter the SLI bridge."

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=38218617&postcount=192

More bombs on the way. Supposedly only the 1080 supports the new HB SLI bridge.

"Because the 1070 isn't getting the new bridge, and just bet the main focus was the SLI capability with the new bridge. The 1070 will use the old Bridge,"
 
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Lepton87

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2009
2,544
9
81
Do some research for your next card to protect yourself. Gigabyte Xtreme series have Aerospace PCB coating, which makes them water resistant.

http://ca.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5726#kf
That's great thanks, unfortunately that card wasn't available when I bought mine. Next time I'm going to consider waiting for this edition.

update:

I wonder why there is such a discrepancy between the approaches of M-GPU between AMD and NV. AMD dropped the external communication between cards while NV doubled the bandwidth but to make 1070SLI less appealing only made that change to the flagship. Only two-way SLI is somewhat curious because they just stopped the most extreme DIY desktops builders from upgrading their 3 or 4 way Titan X SLI on the other hand GP104 is just the middle GPU so in the long run it doesn't make sense to make it capable of 3 or 4 way SLI as such configurations are about the absolute best performance cost and other considerations be damned.
 
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poohbear

Platinum Member
Mar 11, 2003
2,284
5
81
Oh snap!

EVGATech_ChrisB, a member of EVGA Tech support and a moderator of the EVGA Forums.

"We can confirm that 1080 cards only support up to 2-way SLI and anything above this will not work, no matter the SLI bridge."

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=38218617&postcount=192

More bombs on the way. Supposedly only the 1080 supports the new HB SLI bridge.

"Because the 1070 isn't getting the new bridge, and just bet the main focus was the SLI capability with the new bridge. The 1070 will use the old Bridge,"


isn't 2 way SLI plenty for everyone? How much of the market is 3+ SLI?
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,362
5,033
136
Oh snap!

EVGATech_ChrisB, a member of EVGA Tech support and a moderator of the EVGA Forums.

"We can confirm that 1080 cards only support up to 2-way SLI and anything above this will not work, no matter the SLI bridge."

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=38218617&postcount=192

More bombs on the way. Supposedly only the 1080 supports the new HB SLI bridge.

"Because the 1070 isn't getting the new bridge, and just bet the main focus was the SLI capability with the new bridge. The 1070 will use the old Bridge,"

WTH? Well there goes tri-SLI for me. Triple Crossfire it is this generation. Assuming AMD doesn't screw it up
 

Lepton87

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2009
2,544
9
81
isn't 2 way SLI plenty for everyone? How much of the market is 3+ SLI?

Not really, there are some people who want absolute best but they must be such a minority that NV must have calculated that it is not worth it to optimize drivers for such a niche and for a relatively short period of time because those same people would jump to the big GPU anyway as soon as it is released.

ps. is anyone also wondering if the memory bandwidth will cripple the card's performance gain from overclocking assuming the card really overclocks to 2.5GHz+ on water?
 
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YBS1

Golden Member
May 14, 2000
1,945
129
106
Hell, if Vega's performance is up to snuff and AMD prices it right I may go QUAD-FIRE!!!

Mmmmmmmmmonster Kill !!!!!

Supposedly Samsung has some ~35" 21:9 144Hz 1440p curved panels on the way anyhow.
 
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Lepton87

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2009
2,544
9
81
Hell, if Vega's performance is up to snuff and AMD prices it right I may go QUAD-FIRE!!!

Mmmmmmmmmonster Kill !!!!!

I had 4x6970 and I can't say I enjoyed the experience just too much compatibility issues.
 

YBS1

Golden Member
May 14, 2000
1,945
129
106
I had 4x6970 and I can't say I enjoyed the experience just too much compatibility issues.

Crossfire issues are what pushed me to the green side to begin with. Recent Crossfire scaling has me intrigued though.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
Crossfire issues are what pushed me to the green side to begin with. Recent Crossfire scaling has me intrigued though.
I mean look at karlitos right?

I can't even believe comments like "isn't sli enough for everyone". Lol OK, well soon we'll say isn't single card enough for everyone?

Dude if you have the money get multiple cards Im super surprised Nvidia would stop being from buying tri sli. If crossfire is up to 4 cards this gen and if 4 cards is cheaper than 1080sli just lol.

But Polaris will probably disappoint me.
 

x3sphere

Senior member
Jul 22, 2009
722
24
81
www.exophase.com
I'm curious how the 1070 will perform at 4K, isn't there a chance it could be very bandwidth constrained? Same power as Titan X but with significantly less memory bandwidth... hmm. The 980 Ti could remain a better option at least at high resolution. The 1080 of course doesn't have this problem thanks to GDDR5X.

Also, it's interesting that Nvidia made no mention of 4K res during the presentation, their own benchmarks oddly don't even denote a resolution.
 

TidusZ

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2007
1,765
2
81
1080/1070 reference cards were 599/379.

The more expensive models are most likely water cooled models.

At least 25% faster than a 650$ gtx980ti for 50$ less and way more features.
Its well worth it.

Its 1000x faster than a riva TNT which was $150 so we are lucky we can get a 1080 for under $150,000. I was expecting at least $10,000 based on the pricing of the geforce 4 series so seeing as it's less than $1000 is just damn impressive.
 
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airfathaaaaa

Senior member
Feb 12, 2016
692
12
81
Not really, there are some people who want absolute best but they must be such a minority that NV must have calculated that it is not worth it to optimize drivers for such a niche and for a relatively short period of time because those same people would jump to the big GPU anyway as soon as it is released.

ps. is anyone also wondering if the memory bandwidth will cripple the card's performance gain from overclocking assuming the card really overclocks to 2.5GHz+ on water?

for a company that doesnt want to drop sli bridges because even this brings them money you think its about "developing" ?
 

JDG1980

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2013
1,663
570
136
All NV did is put on a higher quality fan, nickel plated the heatsink (the 6950/6970's heatsink actually looks to have larger surface area than the Titan X's heatsink) and manufactured the top cover out of aluminum.

If Apple's massive success has taught us anything, it should be that industrial design matters. A lot. Whether it performs better or not, an elegant aluminum shroud is going to look a lot more "premium" than cheap plastic.

Also, while the AMD heatsink may have a larger surface area, the Nvidia heatsink has wider fin spacing. Narrow fins like on the AMD cooler require high static pressure, and therefore more noise. A wider spacing is optimized for lower airflow.
 

JDG1980

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2013
1,663
570
136
Are you expecting 390 or even 1070 performance? Then I understand your expected disappointment.

Polaris 10 would be an epic fail if it couldn't even match 390 performance. That's the bare minimum level, at least for desktop SKUs. Between architectural improvements and higher clocks enabled by FinFET, it should be able to beat Hawaii easily.
 

flopper

Senior member
Dec 16, 2005
739
19
76
> Then once Pascal launches, at all costs compare reference 1075mhz 980Ti to a 1733mhz Pascal 1080.
http://www.overclock3d.net/articles/gpu_displays/gtx_1080_vs_gtx_980ti_-_specifications_comparison/1

That's why the comparison of 1070/1080 to Titan X is a marketing move for the masses.

If you need to educate the customer, your presenting the information badly.
People will note the mhz difference, and think its faster while pascal is actually slower with ipc than maxwell.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
Polaris 10 would be an epic fail if it couldn't even match 390 performance. That's the bare minimum level, at least for desktop SKUs. Between architectural improvements and higher clocks enabled by FinFET, it should be able to beat Hawaii easily.

I would probably just be done with AMD if they screwed up that badly. I wouldn't want to continue to support such a poorly run company.
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
4,444
641
126
Crossfire issues are what pushed me to the green side to begin with. Recent Crossfire scaling has me intrigued though.

The scaling on my 290s, when it works, is fantastic. It rarely works these days. There are so many bugs I actually leave my rig in default "CF off" mode and only turn it on for certain titles. I play either day 1 release for AAA titles I'm looking forward to, or small studio strategy games. Lots of EU4 and Stellaris now.

I would not suggest multi card to anybody like me right now. There's not enough of us that devs care to spend the money to make it work most of the time. Pretty much just DICE.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
The scaling on my 290s, when it works, is fantastic. It rarely works these days. There are so many bugs I actually leave my rig in default "CF off" mode and only turn it on for certain titles. I play either day 1 release for AAA titles I'm looking forward to, or small studio strategy games. Lots of EU4 and Stellaris now.

I would not suggest multi card to anybody like me right now. There's not enough of us that devs care to spend the money to make it work most of the time. Pretty much just DICE.

Ya Day 1 players should get Nvidia IMO.
Nvidia just offers the best performance for those who play the day the game comes out.
But I have RARELY come across a game that didn't have crossfire benches up, because I wait a while for games to get through the paid beta.

There aren't any major games I can think of that I want to play right now without CF support.
 
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