Anybody else unimpressed with new midrange Nvidia GPUs, and much higher MSRP?

[Daemyion]

One thing that I don't get is how NV/AMD control what kind of memory aftermarket cards will use. It'd be mental to design and use 2 different memory controllers on the same arch, so if the 1080 supports GDDR5x then certainly so should the 1070.

What's stopping an OEM slapping GDDR5x on a 1070 once price and availability are sorted?
And the reverse - why can't they put GDDR5 on a 1080 and sell it for a lower price?

IANAL, but I don't think it's a contract issue because that would discourage competition between OEMs, and runs the risk of an antitrust investigation.

 

[Daemyion]

But its NOT the thing you linked to. "Adaptive Vsynch has nothing to do with the Freesync/Adaptive sync standards.

Mea culpa. Missed the V.

Regardless, if NV adhere to the DP 1.2 standard then they implement Freesync, and all indications are that they will.

 

[Fire&Blood]

So the founder editions are binned chips that used to go to EVGA etc? 3rd parties probably not fans of NV tapping directly into kingpin/ftw cards market.

So end of May for 1080, June for 1070. Love the few weeks gap to push people to go for the more expensive card and founder editions when "stock" cards are out of stock.

$999 Titan for the holiday season then? And 1080TI ~March?

4K has me itching to upgrade but I'll still need two cards to drive it properly and I'm not paying those prices. Have to find a proper monitor first anyway, might as well wait for the prices to drop as well.

 

[linkgoron]

Mea culpa. Missed the V.

Regardless, if NV adhere to the DP 1.2 standard then they implement Freesync, and all indications are that they will.

That's not true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort

DisplayPort version 1.2a may optionally include VESA's Adaptive Sync.[15] AMD's FreeSync utilizes the DisplayPort Adaptive-Sync feature for operation. FreeSync was first demonstrated at CES 2014 on a Toshiba Satellite laptop by making use of the Panel-Self-Refresh (PSR) feature from the Embedded DisplayPort standard,[16] and after a proposal from AMD, VESA later adapted the Panel-Self-Refresh feature for use in standalone displays and added it as an optional feature of the main DisplayPort standard under the name "Adaptive-Sync" in version 1.2a.[17] As it is an optional feature, support for Adaptive-Sync is not required for a display to be DisplayPort 1.2a-compliant.

 

[Erithan13]

I won't declare 1070/1080 as a success or failure until I see proper benchmarks and what Polaris has to offer. My general thoughts are that the 1080 is going to do fairly well for what it is and how it's priced since it's practically certain at this point AMD won't have anything to compete with until Vega. Thing is that price point is so far above mainstream that Nvidia cleaning up with the 1080 just feels like a hollow victory.

The 1070 on the other hand, I see troubled times ahead. I'm predicting the performance in actual games and benchmarks is going to derail the hype train that I've seen building over at Neogaf. I don't think it's going to perform 'badly' but some people have been quick to declare the card a miracle with nothing to go on beyond the scarce information in the presentation. I'm fully willing to being proven wrong once the reviews hit although I suspect the pessimists are more likely to be right about the performance than the optimists (exactly the same for Polaris).

Speaking of Polaris, it looks likely to me the situation will come to pass where Polaris and Pascal broadly won't be competing with each other. If Polaris 10 succeeds in bringing 390X performance down in price AMD can mop up the <$300 market while Nvidia can be equally happy having the higher market all to themselves. The current gen cards (Fury X, 980Ti etc) coming down in price is going to make things interesting though.

I do think there's a decent chance the top end Polaris 10 will trade blows with the 1070 and bring some competition to that price point. It may not affect anyone looking for cards outwith that ~$350 band although I can hope it might bring the prices down further.

 

[Mopetar]

Question is why NV cut 1070 so much that 1070 will perform like 1060 or 1060TI from past?

For better yields. It looks like the 1080 is the full die, and as it's expected to be the largest yet shipped from TSMC, the yields probably aren't great.

If they wanted a better 1070, it would have meant more chips that didn't make the cut. The alternative is to harvest more aggressively and sell a lesser chip at a lower price, which is likely what they decided to do.

They could have also gone with 3 different bins and sold what's being called the 1070 as a 1060 Ti and then have a 1070 that's somewhere in the middle in terms of price and performance, but that also depends on yields as its pointless to make a 1070 if there won't be enough chips.

One thing that I don't get is how NV/AMD control what kind of memory aftermarket cards will use. It'd be mental to design and use 2 different memory controllers on the same arch, so if the 1080 supports GDDR5x then certainly so should the 1070.

What's stopping an OEM slapping GDDR5x on a 1070 once price and availability are sorted?

If the memory controllers require some hardware differences for comparability, all NV needs to do is disable the hardware before selling anyone the chips.

Either that or they just don't care. A sold chip is a sold chip as far as they're concerned. Let their aftermarket partners figure how the best configurations and let the market decide.

 

[Det0x]

I have a feeling we are going to see another HD4870 vs GTX280 this summer.

If Polaris 10 is 232mm2 and GXT 1080 only ~50% faster than GTX980 in DX-12 games.

I can see Polaris 10 give 90% the performance of GTX 1080 at almost half the price and lower power in DX-12 games.

Pretty much spot on... even better when you up those ~120 watts to ~170...

 

[kraatus77]

So much for 1070 having no external power connector. lol

also my prediction on availability was spot on.

On topic, price aren't really bad for (380$) 1070 but that 700$ for reference cooler 1080 is a ripoff for 1X4 chip. seems like early adopter fee with hype for extra oc.

Btw does anyone know how many CC does 1070 have ?

 

[Daemyion]

That's not true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort

It's optional on the display side because it's a cost adder on the display side. It needs extra chips for it work. It doesn't state whether it's optional on the source side as well. I'm guessing it's mandatory for the source because it isn't a cost adder. Also because it's wide standard body and if you by an A-Sync TV it's reasonable to expect it work with a DP 1.2 certified source (DVR/Receiver/etc.).

And it gets even more murky in DP 1.3. The only public reference I could find is from the DP 1.3 FAQ:

Q: Is VESA’s new AdaptiveSync supported?
A: Yes. AdaptiveSync was first supported by DisplayPort 1.2a, and it is already supported in some available products. This is also branded as “Free-Sync” from AMD, which is based on VESA’s AdaptiveSync Standard.

http://www.displayport.org/faq/#DisplayPort 1.3 FAQs

At DP 1.3 it doesn't sound optional anymore, even for displays. But I'll admit it's just a guess.

 

[Head1985]

So much for 1070 having no external power connector. lol

Btw does anyone know how many CC does 1070 have ?

Based on Teraflops 1792-2048SP
1792 if it have same clock as 1080
2048 if it have less clock

I am very disappointed by this Btw

 

[linkgoron]

It's optional on the display side because it's a cost adder on the display side. It needs extra chips for it work. It doesn't state whether it's optional on the source side as well. I'm guessing it's mandatory for the source because it isn't a cost adder. Also because it's wide standard body and if you by an A-Sync TV it's reasonable to expect it work with a DP 1.2 certified source (DVR/Receiver/etc.).

And it gets even more murky in DP 1.3. The only public reference I could find is from the DP 1.3 FAQ:

http://www.displayport.org/faq/#DisplayPort 1.3 FAQs

At DP 1.3 it doesn't sound optional anymore, even for displays. But I'll admit it's just a guess.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8533/...rt-13-standard-50-more-bandwidth-new-features

Meanwhile to no surprise (but always good for clarification), DisplayPort Active-Sync remains an optional part of the specification, so Adaptive-Sync availability will continue to be on a monitor-by-monitor basis as a premium feature.

It's also optional in eDP:

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...d-with-displayport-1-4a-allows-for-8k-scaling

As with DisplayPort 1.2a and 1.3, Adaptive-Sync is supported in embedded DisplayPort 1.4a but remains an optional part of the specification.

and in DP 1.4:
http://deliddedtech.com/2016/03/02/the-displayport-1-4-open-standard-has-been-published-by-vesa/

Unfortunately, Adaptive-Sync remains an optional specification, meaning consumers will still have to pay a premium for a Freesync monitor as it is not required by the standard.

 

[SPBHM]

the shift happened from Fermi to Kepler, they are just continuing the same very successful strategy, also the 970 would probably have sold well for the 1070 price, I remember everyone expected over $400 for the 970 before the official price was confirmed.

 

[Det0x]

For pricing and availability, NVIDIA has announced that the card will be available on May 27th. There will be two versions of the card, the base/MSRP card at $599, and then a more expensive Founders Edition card at $699. At the base level this is a slight price increase over the GTX 980, which launched at $549. Information on the differences between these versions is limited, but based on NVIDIA&#8217;s press release it would appear that only the Founders Edition card will ship with NVIDIA&#8217;s full reference design, cooler and all. Meanwhile the base cards will feature custom designs from NVIDIA&#8217;s partners. NVIDIA&#8217;s press release was also very careful to only attach the May 27th launch date to the Founders Edition cards.

If you want a card, you pay $699/$449 for it -> The only cards available for sale at launch will be "Founders" cards.

 

[linkgoron]

If you want a card, you pay $699/$449 for it -> The only cards available for sale at launch will be "Founders" cards.

Just to make sure I understand everything correctly:

nvidia is basically releasing the cards at 700$/450$ for "early adopters", and trying to make it look cool by calling it "founders edition"? Looks like a great way to increase MSRP even though they're saying that the MSRP is really 600/380...

The above is of course based on the assumption that there will only be founder cards at the beginning, which is what the AT article is implying.

 

[Daemyion]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8533/...rt-13-standard-50-more-bandwidth-new-features



It's also optional in eDP:

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...d-with-displayport-1-4a-allows-for-8k-scaling



and in DP 1.4:
http://deliddedtech.com/2016/03/02/the-displayport-1-4-open-standard-has-been-published-by-vesa/

Thanks for the clarification, but it still doesn't mention whether it's optional on the controller side as well. I don't think that it is. Every post specifically mentions monitors, and having consumers verify compatibility up and down the chain (source, monitor, cables even?) sounds... meh.

I've sent VESA a question regarding controllers through the "Ask displayport" page. Will update if/when I get an answer.

 

[Det0x]

Just to make sure I understand everything correctly:

nvidia is basically releasing the cards at 700$/450$ for "early adopters", and trying to make it look cool by calling it "founders edition"? Looks like a great way to increase MSRP even though they're saying that the MSRP is really 600/380...

The above is of course based on the assumption that there will only be founder cards at the beginning, which is what the AT article is implying.

Yes

The Founders Edition is both a good idea (hey, we have working engineering sample dies of both GP104 and GDDR5X, let's make a limited run to claim a launch, AND charge more for them!) and annoying (obfuscates the true launch time, which is likely two months away given full production time cycles at the fab, GDDR5X availability, etc).

 

[maddie]

That's all anyone has to go on. Why would the 1070 be $379 if they weren't worried about how Polaris performs at lower prices. It tells me they want as many people as possible to bite on that price quickly before AMD drops anything.

If AMD marketing had any brain at all they would release information about their cards immediately. If they don't do that then I expect p10 actually does perform like a 390x and they have no answer at all and will lose more market share.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

Unless you think there are huge quantities of GP104 dies ready, there won't be much effect on market share in the short term [couple months].

A completely "out of the blue" drop of Polaris with unforeseen high performance will have a much bigger shock effect. This shakes individual's fundamental beliefs and AMD needs this to start on the road-back in the retail consumer space.

 

[airfathaaaaa]

can someone recap what jhh said about open source?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

can someone recap what jhh said about open source?

"I love open source standards!" *Wink wink*

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

 

[Zanovar]

haha

 

[maddie]

Based on Teraflops 1792-2048SP
1792 if it have same clock as 1080
2048 if it have less clock

I am very disappointed by this Btw

There are some impending battles. This seems very much within Polaris territory.

 

[Insomniator]

Not sure I see the problem with $380 for the 1070 if it really delivers 980TI performance. Add in a few mail in rebates, some competition from AMD and you could be paying $325 for a 1070 in a few months (though 380 sounds fine to me). The 980TI has been a 'slickdeal' at $550 for the past 6 months. What more do you expect?

Just ignore the founders editions -- stupid cash grab by Nvidia.

 

[Head1985]

Just ignore the founders editions -- stupid cash grab by Nvidia.

but founder editions are reference cards...
how aftermarket cards can be 100USD cheaper?I think 1070 will cost 450 even aftermarket and 1080 will cost 700USD.
When last time aftermarket cards was 100USD cheaper?

 

[Sonikku]

Founders Edition is just more of that Nvidia marketing to take advantage of the impressionable.

 

[Mopetar]

Just ignore the founders editions -- stupid cash grab by Nvidia.

If the only cards at launch are Founders Edition, then you can't. I know that supply is tight, probably because NV is selling as much as it can produce, so it makes business sense to increase the price, but until the non-reference cards go on sale (whenever that may be) the MSRP is meaningless.

I think that they'll have more supply by the end of July, but for a month or two it's the FE or bust.