Anybody else unimpressed with new midrange Nvidia GPUs, and much higher MSRP?

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.vodka

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2014
1,203
1,537
136
Still, everyone's products so far on 14/16nm processes have had a nice increase in frequency at similar power consumption. Apple's A9 and A9X (was it 400-600MHz on a constrained environment?), GP104 and that 2.1GHz shot and this rumor that custom cards might do 2.3-2.4GHz (so, around 0.6-1GHz up from GM204? If I may, these 2.3-2.4GHz GP104 cards are probably going to be consuming north of 225-250w, it sounds like they're pushing the chip as far as it'll reasonably go)

No reason not to think that P11 in that demo was running conservative clock speeds as with like any other usual engineering sample be it CPUs or GPUs, or to emphasise perf/w. AMD's video there states 850MHz at 0.8375v, that could do wonders in a notebook... which is its intended place. P10 will use higher voltage and higher speeds.

From the new process alone you have this inherent clockspeed increase that might put GCN at around 1.3-1.6GHz comfortably, if we keep 28nm's GCN perf/power curve. GCN doesn't clock as high as Maxwell, that's clear, yet it doesn't need such high clockspeeds to be competitive or outright beat or embarrass nV's competition in >2015 games. This is particularly clear of Hawaii vs GM204, Fiji as imbalanced as it is can't overcome GM200 this way. Tonga and the dinosaur Pitcairn do alright for what they are vs GM206. Just think of what a hypothetical >1.5GHz Hawaii could do, that is reference GM200 performance right there, if this were just a straight shrink.


Obviously GCN's power/perf curve is going to change, most of the architecture's critical parts are "new", and this time CUs are included (I remember reading GCN1-3 CUs are mostly the same in B3D, the rest of the GPU is what's been changed), so yeah, not much more to go by at this point. P10 might punch way above its weight with just 2304-2560SPs, just like a >2GHz 1xxx-2560SPs GP104 will just because of sheer clockspeeds, taking into account the hardware both chips have vs their 28nm 600mm^2 relatives. This is a node shrink after all, last time we had one of those was back in 2011-2012.

Computex can't come soon enough.
 
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xpea

Senior member
Feb 14, 2014
449
148
116
The demo ran with vsync on. Very likely temp never shot up due to low GPU load. Plus, the GPU has a tdp of 180w. I bet the cooler is the same as previous gen but with a different cover.
The new GTX1080 cooler has a vapor chamber, so a big improvement over previous reference designs
 

swilli89

Golden Member
Mar 23, 2010
1,558
1,181
136
Still, everyone's products so far on 14/16nm processes have had a nice increase in frequency at similar power consumption. Apple's A9 and A9X (was it 400-600MHz on a constrained environment?), GP104 and that 2.1GHz shot and this rumor that custom cards might do 2.3-2.4GHz (so, around 0.6-1GHz up from GM204? If I may, these 2.3-2.4GHz GP104 cards are probably going to be consuming north of 225-250w, it sounds like they're pushing the chip as far as it'll reasonably go)

No reason not to think that P11 in that demo was running conservative clock speeds as with like any other usual engineering sample be it CPUs or GPUs, or to emphasise perf/w. AMD's video there states 850MHz at 0.8375v, that could do wonders in a notebook... which is its intended place. P10 will use higher voltage and higher speeds.

From the new process alone you have this inherent clockspeed increase that might put GCN at around 1.3-1.6GHz comfortably, if we keep 28nm's GCN perf/power curve. GCN doesn't clock as high as Maxwell, that's clear, yet it doesn't need such high clockspeeds to be competitive or outright beat or embarrass nV's competition in >2015 games. This is particularly clear of Hawaii vs GM204, Fiji as imbalanced as it is can't overcome GM200 this way. Tonga and the dinosaur Pitcairn do alright for what they are vs GM206. Just think of what a hypothetical >1.5GHz Hawaii could do, that is reference GM200 performance right there, if this were just a straight shrink.


Obviously GCN's power/perf curve is going to change, most of the architecture's critical parts are "new", and this time CUs are included (I remember reading GCN1-3 CUs are mostly the same in B3D, the rest of the GPU is what's been changed), so yeah, not much more to go by at this point. P10 might punch way above its weight with just 2304-2560SPs, just like a >2GHz 1xxx-2560SPs GP104 will just because of sheer clockspeeds, taking into account the hardware both chips have vs their 28nm 600mm^2 relatives. This is a node shrink after all, last time we had one of those was back in 2011-2012.

Computex can't come soon enough.

Well said. I agree that we may see a very stout little Polaris 10 die that could rival GM200, it really comes down to bandwidth imo.
 

EliteRetard

Diamond Member
Mar 6, 2006
6,490
1,021
136
So people want a poll, can this thread be edited to add one?
I don't know how to do it if it's possible...
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
Honestly though, is anyone else ready to be disappointed by Polaris 10? I mean we've all thought amd had easy layups in the past. I know Polaris 10 should be an easy layup to hit 390x at 250 but... This is amd. They could fail me miserably.
 

ZGR

Platinum Member
Oct 26, 2012
2,054
661
136
I am not. This is the first time I have been interested in AMD's mobile lineup in a long, long time. NVIDIA has dominated the notebook market share for awhile.
 

showb1z

Senior member
Dec 30, 2010
462
53
91
Depends on what you want from it. Polaris and GM204 are irrelevant to anyone with a 290 and up who's at least somewhat budget conscious imo.
Polaris could be the greatest performance/$/W chip ever, but it won't increase absolute performance. 1080 is a small bump over 980ti, while being more expensive. Could've just gotten a 980ti a year ago.
These releases make it easy to wait it out for the big chips in 2017.
 
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book_ed

Member
Apr 8, 2016
29
0
6
I've been thinking this myself. I'm wondering how much optimizing nVidia has been doing lately for Maxwell.

Look at 970/980 vs. 290/290X.



If when GM104 was released the performance stacked up like this against Hawaii cards how many would have sold? Especially when you consider what the pricing was. I think the performance tanking is already underway.

Well, check this review from December 2014. A R290 is put at $230 while the stock GTX970 is $330 and the model tested is $350.

If you check the performance in 1440p back then, there isn't such a vast difference between that point and now. The R290 series was strong all along:





GTX970 did great under dx11 in 1080p, more so the aftermarket cards that were benchmarked against stock speed R290/x, while you had anyway faster variants at around 1GHz or so.

People went nuts over power efficiency and off fans while idling although there were problems here and there with coil whine.

AMD shot themselves in the foot with the original coolers that set a bad example, a bad imprint in people's minds. Only recently through GPU Open they actually showed some fighting desire other than making good products (but sucking at selling/marketing them).


What nVIDIA did so far, including with this series, is a lesson AMD needs to learn and improve upon ASAP.
 

flopper

Senior member
Dec 16, 2005
739
19
76
Still, everyone's products so far on 14/16nm processes have had a nice increase in frequency at similar power consumption. Apple's A9 and A9X (was it 400-600MHz on a constrained environment?), GP104 and that 2.1GHz shot and this rumor that custom cards might do 2.3-2.4GHz (so, around 0.6-1GHz up from GM204? If I may, these 2.3-2.4GHz GP104 cards are probably going to be consuming north of 225-250w, it sounds like they're pushing the chip as far as it'll reasonably go)

No reason not to think that P11 in that demo was running conservative clock speeds as with like any other usual engineering sample be it CPUs or GPUs, or to emphasise perf/w. AMD's video there states 850MHz at 0.8375v, that could do wonders in a notebook... which is its intended place. P10 will use higher voltage and higher speeds.

From the new process alone you have this inherent clockspeed increase that might put GCN at around 1.3-1.6GHz comfortably, if we keep 28nm's GCN perf/power curve. GCN doesn't clock as high as Maxwell, that's clear, yet it doesn't need such high clockspeeds to be competitive or outright beat or embarrass nV's competition in >2015 games. This is particularly clear of Hawaii vs GM204, Fiji as imbalanced as it is can't overcome GM200 this way. Tonga and the dinosaur Pitcairn do alright for what they are vs GM206. Just think of what a hypothetical >1.5GHz Hawaii could do, that is reference GM200 performance right there, if this were just a straight shrink.


Obviously GCN's power/perf curve is going to change, most of the architecture's critical parts are "new", and this time CUs are included (I remember reading GCN1-3 CUs are mostly the same in B3D, the rest of the GPU is what's been changed), so yeah, not much more to go by at this point. P10 might punch way above its weight with just 2304-2560SPs, just like a >2GHz 1xxx-2560SPs GP104 will just because of sheer clockspeeds, taking into account the hardware both chips have vs their 28nm 600mm^2 relatives. This is a node shrink after all, last time we had one of those was back in 2011-2012.

Computex can't come soon enough.

AMD choose unless they run a total mask to adress the lower/mid range with price/performance.
if priced accordingly might be the best upgrade people can do in a decade.
so whats a reviewer going to do?
cant compare Polaris and Pascal as they are intended for different markets.

Might be so Polaris is the only choice for anyone to upgrade to that isnt an entusiast.
which btw outsell any 400+ cards a lot.
 

linkgoron

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2005
2,334
857
136
Honestly though, is anyone else ready to be disappointed by Polaris 10? I mean we've all thought amd had easy layups in the past. I know Polaris 10 should be an easy layup to hit 390x at 250 but... This is amd. They could fail me miserably.

Yes, that's exactly how I feel.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
Honestly though, is anyone else ready to be disappointed by Polaris 10? I mean we've all thought amd had easy layups in the past. I know Polaris 10 should be an easy layup to hit 390x at 250 but... This is amd. They could fail me miserably.

I will be disappointed if Polaris 10 will not give +20-25% over Hawaii at lower TDP at $299.
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,193
2
76
Well said. I agree that we may see a very stout little Polaris 10 die that could rival GM200, it really comes down to bandwidth imo.
I understand the bandwidth argument, but I think people forget that Hawaii sees basically zero improvement from memory overclocking. With improved memory compression and faster gddr5 I think Polaris will be able to stretch it's legs more than Hawaii before it hits a memory bottleneck.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
 

digitaldurandal

Golden Member
Dec 3, 2009
1,828
0
76
I will be disappointed if Polaris 10 will not give +20-25% over Hawaii at lower TDP at $299.

If Polaris is 20% better than Hawaii at that size Nvidia will be in trouble. However, not even AMD has pushed this narrative so.. prepare yourself for disappointment.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
I understand the bandwidth argument, but I think people forget that Hawaii sees basically zero improvement from memory overclocking. With improved memory compression and faster gddr5 I think Polaris will be able to stretch it's legs more than Hawaii before it hits a memory bottleneck.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

Hawaii's mem bus has 2x the bandwidth too.
 

MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,584
1,743
136
I will be disappointed if Polaris 10 will not give +20-25% over Hawaii at lower TDP at $299.

If Polaris is 20% better than Hawaii at that size Nvidia will be in trouble. However, not even AMD has pushed this narrative so.. prepare yourself for disappointment.

Well, GP104 is ~55% of GM200's size, and the 1080 is supposedly 20% faster than a Titan X. The proposed 232mm² die is almost the exact same ratio to Hawaii, so an uplift over Hawaii isn't out of the question.

The other part of P10's market position is more questionable. Ignoring the ludicrous pricing of the Titan series, the 1080 is launching at 108% of the launch price of the 980Ti. Launch price of the 390X was $430, and launch price of the 290X was $550. I don't think we'll see P10 launch for more than the 390X, but I also don't think we'll see it launch for 70% of the 390X's launch price. Not if it does give +20% on a 390X's performance.
 

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
0
0
What used to be the "Pascal will be 50-100% faster than Maxwell" argument from certain folks has now turned into "What? People are expecting huge performance improvements from a node change and that's unrealistic nowadays"...

Fact is that Pascal is a disappointment because of the founders fiasco. Seeing a GTX 980 replacement at $700 is quite the price increase no? It's faster than a Titan X? Wasn't the GTX 980 faster than a Titan for a lot less money?

I'm waiting on reviews because the"1070 is faster than TitanX" argument is based on NVIDIA graphs which specifically mention power usage and performance. So that's a perf/watt graph.
 

R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
2,582
162
106
Well, GP104 is ~55% of GM200's size, and the 1080 is supposedly 20% faster than a Titan X. The proposed 232mm² die is almost the exact same ratio to Hawaii, so an uplift over Hawaii isn't out of the question.

The other part of P10's market position is more questionable. Ignoring the ludicrous pricing of the Titan series, the 1080 is launching at 108% of the launch price of the 980Ti. Launch price of the 390X was $430, and launch price of the 290X was $550. I don't think we'll see P10 launch for more than the 390X, but I also don't think we'll see it launch for 70% of the 390X's launch price. Not if it does give +20% on a 390X's performance.
I predict 70% of Fury X's launch price, if it performs close to the water cooled X & has GDDR5x. Otherwise 70% of plain Fury's price, given that P10 just beats the 390(x) :sneaky:

All possible price points covered
 

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
0
0
GTX 1080 has a vapor chamber so $700 makes sense :/ LOL

Ok I'm off...this thread is making me laugh way more than Dave Chapelle.

Have fun guys
 

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
0
0
Uh, what? nVidia's had vapor chamber coolers since the GTX580, six years ago.

They've been standard for quite some time... That's what has me laughing.

Heck my bitcoin mining rig used 3 Sapphire VaporX 7970s.

I think it's best to wait for the reviews before we go on any further. Maybe there's a logical reason for the drastic price hike.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,787
4,771
136
Are there not going to have the potential for many Polaris 10 models? Why are so many limiting the performance to narrow slots. As in I expect Polaris 10 to be FuryX, or 390X, etc.

With good clock gating, small die, 14nm Finfet properties, architectural improvements, surely we might get a huge range of performance.

The top uncut model should battle GTX1070, others ranging down to highly efficient notebook editions.
 
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