Discussion Anyone else bored out of their mind due to mainstream CPU market stagnation?

Jul 27, 2020
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Raptor Lake and Zen 4 launched late in 2022. The single thread performance needle is kinda stuck since. Sure we have 7800X3D and soon there will be a 14900KS but the basic architectures are still the same. In other words, boring. There's the Apple M3 but that's hardly a mainstream CPU due to the pretty high price of admission for a decent 16GB/512GB laptop.

I really wish AMD had unveiled the Zen 5 performance figures on January 2nd, as a New Year's gift to techies. Unfortunately, their priorities have shifted to the enterprise sector, much to our collective detriment. I feel that these companies are getting lazier and more complacent due to rising costs of development and also because rich people these days have a lot more money to waste than the common man. I see people buying multiple CPUs just to find a golden sample. People showing off their TR Pro 7000 series rigs. So these people are spending enough FU money to keep these companies comfy and complacent and unwilling to make progress at a breakneck speed. Gone are the days of intense competition where we would get a new CPU in a matter of months, just to claim the performance crown from the competitor.

I really, really miss the good ole days. I wish I could be transported back in time, with the income I have now, to have some fun buying cool hardware and feeling the rush of running the AAA titles of the time at max settings.

I'm gonna let AMD off the hook coz they are at least coming out with Zen 5 in the very near future. However, Intel, I have some tough questions to ask you:

1) Is Pat Gelsinger STUPID??? What in the world makes him think that Raptor Lake Refresh is enough for much of 2024??? How can he be fine letting AMD walk all over Intel with Zen 5? They had plenty of time after Alder Lake to do enough tweaks to at least make the RPL-R have 20% more performance. It seems to me that Pat is not really running the show. Someone else behind the scenes is pulling the strings. But if Pat really has all the power he needs to make a positive and meaningful change, shame on him for letting Intel be so unproductive!

2) When is Intel gonna take its head out of its backside hole and start producing eDRAM again???? 256MB or 512MB eDRAM would do wonders for Raptor Lake Refresh, especially with stock DDR5-5600 RAM due to its higher latency. Heck, they could design a CPU package that has eDRAM as L4 and 16GB Enterprise Grade Optane as L5 cache to really boost system responsiveness to the moon. The Optane could be just an M.2 stick integrated into the CPU package that could be replaced in the event its write cycles get exhausted over several years.

3) Why can't Intel design a simple low height cooling solution with a copper heatsink that cools the CPU's underside, in addition to the cooling solution on the top??? Cooling 300W is asking too much with just one outlet for the heat to dissipate. Look, I don't support Intel's heinous power consumption figures but if they are gonna go that way, at least let the CPU lose the heat effectively so it doesn't throttle and it can maintain a much higher all-core clockspeed. I firmly believe that with the proper focus on cooling, Raptor Lake could do 6.5 GHz EASY! That's the only in-house process node benefit Intel has over the competition so Intel should have the brains to capitalize on it. Why is it that some random shmuck on the internet has this idea and not one genius soul INSIDE Intel????? Which again brings me to my suspicion that there are plenty of innovative suggestions from bright Intel people on how to progress forward effectively but some numbnut doofus in charge is vetoing their suggestions.

I'm not even gonna begin to explain how mad I feel at this very moment. In the animal world, evolution makes sure that the fittest lead the pack. In the human world, slimy, dishonest and utterly selfish politics dictate the outcome of any situation which is why the world is in the mess it finds itself in. Consider this post a wake-up call, my mighty super intellectual friends. Take back what's yours and kick the dumb people out of higher positions where the only thing they do is ruin it for everybody.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,027
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I wouldn't say the CPU market has stagnated, but I would agree that it's high time that Intel made a comeback or the market will stagnate.

I completely agree with the gaming point, though that has very little to do with CPUs.
 
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At least the CPU competitive landscape in the consumer desktop space is far better than the consumer desktop GPU space.
I would say that is again Intel's fault for not competing hard enough. Imagine if they had a 32GB card with at least 4080 level of performance. AMD and that other company would be shocked at the sales figures for that card. I really, really don't understand why Intel fabs are not being used to fab their GPU dies. Why have their semi con engineers still not discovered what it takes to fab a high yield GPU die?
 
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You're not gonna believe if I tell you what happened since Intel launched Sandy Bridge until AMD launched Ryzen 1....
I'm so glad that I was so busy in those years that it didn't matter to me one bit what was going on in the CPU world. I had a Sandy Bridge Core i3 in a Z77 mobo and I believe I upgraded that to an i7-3770 pretty cheap in 2016(?). It was a pretty nice bump in performance for me and I really didn't feel I needed more than that at the time (not that much would have been available to me at the time for a reasonable amount of money). 2020 was when I got the i7-5775C from Ali Express and that paired with a used Geforce GTX Titan X got me through the pandemic. Around mid-2021, I think I got the 12700K. Current plan is to upgrade that to a 14900KS when it's on sale in 2025. After that, it's gonna be either Nova Lake or Zen 7. That is assuming Zen 5 is not so good that I wash my hands off Intel and become an AMD groupie.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,761
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Im bored with the technology we get for quite a few years now. Everything is nice, but nothing is game changing. The only thing that would start the fire of passion in me for the technology is really good, balanced APUs in terms of both: CPU, GPU performance, AND efficiency. And maybe something unusual in terms of feature set(like quad channel memory controller).
 
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The only thing that would start the fire of passion in me for the technology is really good, balanced APUs in terms of both: CPU, GPU performance, AND efficiency. And maybe something unusual in terms of feature set(like quad channel memory controller).
Yes, my friend. I would also love an APU that manages maximum boost speed on its CPU chiplet yet the GPU tile is fast enough to at least enjoy the majority of AAA titles at 1080p with XeSS @ 60 fps. A huge cache, one for the CPU chiplet and one for the GPU, both 128 MB in size, would just be icing on the cake.

In future, an 8P+32E CPU chiplet on 14A or N2 would get me really, really excited.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,761
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Yes, my friend. I would also love an APU that manages maximum boost speed on its CPU chiplet yet the GPU tile is fast enough to at least enjoy the majority of AAA titles at 1080p with XeSS @ 60 fps. A huge cache, one for the CPU chiplet and one for the GPU, both 128 MB in size, would just be icing on the cake.

In future, an 8P+32E CPU chiplet on 14A or N2 would get me really, really excited.
To be honest - It would not make me move out from my chair, even for a moment.

8 CPU cores(plus maybe efficiency cores), iGPU performance of RTX2060/5600 XT, within 65W TDP for 350$. Thats all is needed here. Thats what would be a game changer in my eyes.
 

Saylick

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2012
3,385
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Im bored with the technology we get for quite a few years now. Everything is nice, but nothing is game changing. The only thing that would start the fire of passion in me for the technology is really good, balanced APUs in terms of both: CPU, GPU performance, AND efficiency. And maybe something unusual in terms of feature set(like quad channel memory controller).
Strix Halo is hopefully that part.
 
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Jul 27, 2020
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I completely agree with the gaming point, though that has very little to do with CPUs.
It depends on the game engine. Some of them (strategy and flight sims in particular) really, really crave the highest ST performance. I have a feeling that Zen 5 X3D will cause quite a few people to involuntarily wet their boxers.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,761
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Strix Halo is hopefully that part.
Not yet. iGPU is powerful, but not to the degree that I am interested in.

BTW, yes, I am interested in Strix Point normal APUs more than the Strix Halo.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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8 CPU cores(plus maybe efficiency cores), iGPU performance of RTX2060/5600 XT, within 65W TDP for 350$. Thats all is needed here. Thats what would be a game changer in my eyes.
The only problem with that is the 65W TDP limit. Maybe with 14A or N2. So that's 2027 or 2028. I don't see that happening before that in the x86 world. Unless Qualcomm turns its full attention to the gaming market and gets serious about real innovative competition, rather than chasing the dollar.
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
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1) No, he's not. Unfortunately, Intel is playing extreme makeover: semiconductor edition and are doing the best with what they have.

2) EDRAM is way too slow, you wouldn't want that on a modern CPU.

3) Physics.
 
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By the way, If AMD releases the Zen 5 X3D in late 2024 to rain on Intel's Arrow Lake parade, pairing that CPU with Intel Battlemage 24GB graphics card would make a pretty nice, relatively inexpensive build, especially during end of the year sales season. It would be a pretty ironic build though. Products from two fierce competitors, working in tandem to make the user happy and satisfied, without having to sell a kidney
 
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1) No, he's not. Unfortunately, Intel is playing extreme makeover: semiconductor edition and are doing the best with what they have.

2) EDRAM is way too slow, you wouldn't want that on a modern CPU.

3) Physics.
Please don't be adroc_thurston. Kindly elaborate.

I'm pretty sure that modern eDRAM would be at least 10 to 15 nanoseconds faster than stock DDR5-5600. I really prefer not having to waste time tightening memory timings. It's a time consuming, hair pulling process.
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
5,600
8,790
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Please don't be adroc_thurston. Kindly elaborate.

I'm pretty sure that modern eDRAM would be at least 10 to 15 nanoseconds faster than stock DDR5-5600. I really prefer not having to waste time tightening memory timings. It's a time consuming, hair pulling process.

EDRAM hasn't been developed in quite a while now. HBM or things like Infinity/V-cache took over and are superior solutions depending on the need.
 
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yottabit

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2008
1,375
240
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My bank account certainly appreciates the reduced rate of advances

There’s been plenty of major and interesting innovations in the past few years (heterogenous architecture with e-cores, chiplets, 3D V-cache) but I guess if you’re just focusing on the IPC uplifts it could be a bit of a letdown. Personally I’m quite excited to see which new technologies (like rentable units, AI co-processors) stick and which will be a flash in the pan.

Why not just adjust your CPU upgrade cycle expectations to a every few years instead of every year or two ?

It’s not like there’s a ton of low hanging fruit anymore for single thread performance

Or if you really want, get into the prosumer or server hardware for the fun of it. I’ve been tempted by some of the used Epyc rigs floating around on eBay
 
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SarahKerrigan

Senior member
Oct 12, 2014
602
1,467
136
1) No, he's not. Unfortunately, Intel is playing extreme makeover: semiconductor edition and are doing the best with what they have.

2) EDRAM is way too slow, you wouldn't want that on a modern CPU.

3) Physics.

What a strange take on eDRAM.

eDRAM can be as fast (in terms of bandwidth) or as low-latency (within reasonable limits) as needed, and it's dense. IBM was throwin' around on-die 80MB eDRAM caches well over a decade ago, on a 32nm SOI node, with no exotic packaging needed. A modern evolution of that could be many hundreds of MB of fast on-die cache - on 14HP, IBM was doing z15, with 352MB eDRAM L2 and L3 and 12 cores for the CPU and then 960MB (!) of eDRAM on the external L4 chip. z15 eDRAM was even low-latency enough to be used for branch prediction structures.
 

Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,365
12,737
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How long until we have a required subscription to activate full CPU features?

It isn't as ridiculous as it sounds, IMO. Want the use of ALL those cores? Pay the monthly sub. Want the full cache? Pay the sub. Want to use that iGPU? Pay a sub.

Subscription required to use the heated seats in your car?
Subscriptions for other industries and markets has been expanding for a bit now...how long until it applies to computer hardware?
 
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SarahKerrigan

Senior member
Oct 12, 2014
602
1,467
136
How long until we have a required subscription to activate full CPU features?

It isn't as ridiculous as it sounds, IMO. Want the use of ALL those cores? Pay the monthly sub.

Subscription required to use the heated seats in your car? Subscriptions for other industries and markets has been expanding for a bit now...how long until it applies to computer hardware?

It has in high-end CPUs and systems for a while (Capacity On Demand.) I'd be surprised if it doesn't come to mainstream.
 
Reactions: Pohemi
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I’ve been tempted by some of the used Epyc rigs floating around on eBay
Nah. Unless you are talking about the 768MB V-cache Epyc, it's boring for a regular consumer. Only people with specialized workloads like data science or distributed computing benefit from those. I was really tempted to get a Zen 3 Epyc with 768MB cache but it will be a year or two before I have enough disposable cash to justify throwing on it.
 
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A big downvote for both Sarah and Pohemi regarding subscription. Are you people nuts? Why give ideas to the idiot marketing people from the big companies lurking on these forums????
 
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