Discussion Anyone else bored out of their mind due to mainstream CPU market stagnation?

[igor_kavinski]

It has in high-end CPUs and systems for a while (Capacity On Demand.)

A company can afford an expense like that. An individual cannot. We have to scrimp money for months just to get what's enough for our needs!

 

[SarahKerrigan]

A company can afford an expense like that. An individual cannot. We have to scrimp money for months just to get what's enough for our needs!

I didn't say it's a good thing, just that it's probably going to happen. Intel already flirted with this with their "Intel Upgrade Service" stuff.

That being said - and I'm not really interested in getting into an extended discussion on this, since consumer PC hardware is not an area I care much about - most SKUs are already made out of existing dice with stuff disabled. Some are due to yield issues, but not all (or necessarily even most, in mature products.) I don't really see what's being lost by a company saying "you can enable the disabled bits" vs "the disabled bits are there and there's nothing you can do with them."

 

[igor_kavinski]

I don't really see what's being lost by a company saying "you can enable the disabled bits" vs "the disabled bits are there and there's nothing you can do with them."

I'm fine with a software upgrade turning Core 3 to 5, 5 to 7 and 7 to 9 but what I'm dead against is a subscription. That would be a pretty dick anti-consumer move.

 

[Ajay]

No, I’m not bored out of my mind. There are other things to do in life.

 

[igor_kavinski]

There are other things to do in life.

Yes, we know you have a wife and she keeps you busy.

Same fate as @BoomerD

 

[igor_kavinski]

@DigDog @biostud @Torn Mind @adroc_thurston @DAPUNISHER @mikk @SteveGrabowski @VirtualLarry @uzzi38 @mxnerd

You guys wanna chime in with your wisdom?

 

[H433x0n]

Raptor Lake and Zen 4 launched late in 2022. The single thread performance needle is kinda stuck since. Sure we have 7800X3D and soon there will be a 14900KS but the basic architectures are still the same. In other words, boring. There's the Apple M3 but that's hardly a mainstream CPU due to the pretty high price of admission for a decent 16GB/512GB laptop.

I really wish AMD had unveiled the Zen 5 performance figures on January 2nd, as a New Year's gift to techies. Unfortunately, their priorities have shifted to the enterprise sector, much to our collective detriment. I feel that these companies are getting lazier and more complacent due to rising costs of development and also because rich people these days have a lot more money to waste than the common man. I see people buying multiple CPUs just to find a golden sample. People showing off their TR Pro 7000 series rigs. So these people are spending enough FU money to keep these companies comfy and complacent and unwilling to make progress at a breakneck speed. Gone are the days of intense competition where we would get a new CPU in a matter of months, just to claim the performance crown from the competitor.

I really, really miss the good ole days. I wish I could be transported back in time, with the income I have now, to have some fun buying cool hardware and feeling the rush of running the AAA titles of the time at max settings.

I'm gonna let AMD off the hook coz they are at least coming out with Zen 5 in the very near future. However, Intel, I have some tough questions to ask you:

The CPU market has been historically great since 2017. AMD has had +25% ST perf gains every generation for 4 generations at this point. Zen 4 managed +30% in a single generation (over a solid baseline of Zen 3). If you're upgrading from Zen 2, in just 2 generations you've got >=50% performance increase.

Despite the hate that Intel has gotten both ADL & RPL brought big ST perf gains. Alder Lake got +20% & 35% ST performance improvement over Rocket Lake & Comet Lake respectively. Raptor Lake then got +13% ST uplift over Alder Lake one year later. If you upgraded from a 10900K to a 13900K right now you'd gain +50% in single threaded applications such as web browsing and almost 40% more gaming performance.

tldr: CPU competition on client side has brought big improvements in a short amount of time. We're just currently in a lull between 2 generations.

1) Is Pat Gelsinger STUPID??? What in the world makes him think that Raptor Lake Refresh is enough for much of 2024??? How can he be fine letting AMD walk all over Intel with Zen 5? They had plenty of time after Alder Lake to do enough tweaks to at least make the RPL-R have 20% more performance. It seems to me that Pat is not really running the show. Someone else behind the scenes is pulling the strings. But if Pat really has all the power he needs to make a positive and meaningful change, shame on him for letting Intel be so unproductive!

He's not stupid.. he just has no other options at the moment. I don't think it was complacency that left them stuck with RPL-R until Q4 2024.

 

[igor_kavinski]

tldr: CPU competition on client side has brought big improvements in a short amount of time. We're just currently in a lull between 2 generations.

AMD isn't hibernating, unlike Intel. Zen 5 is coming soon although it's still later than I wish.

He's not stupid.. he just has no other options at the moment. I don't think it was complacency that left them stuck with RPL-R until Q4 2024.

Then what's so hard about tacking on an L4 cache to Raptor Lake Refresh, even just for the Core 9 CPU, to make it the absolute gaming champ?

I really hope for Intel's sake that they come out with a Core 5 and a Core 9 Ultra desktop CPU at 125W and 150W respectively, for the AI PC boom with base DDR5-6400 or 7200 support in the IMC. They probably won't be enough to threaten Zen 5's predicted absolute domination in benchmarks but at least the sum of parts would look appealing to prospective customers.

 

[Torn Mind]

Demand has crashed due to "yesteryear's output".

Heck, I nabbed a hexacore Acer prebuilt for about $75 of craigslist.

Thus, the market needs to find ways to stimulate demand. That means more integrated, disposable products.

This is basically "deflation" occurring. Fully functional PCs can't sell even at cheap prices on the used market.

So unless the market gets back to "tipping" the manufacturers by buying top-of-the-line, there will only be further contraction.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Heck, I nabbed a hexacore Acer prebuilt for about $75 of craigslist.

Specs?

 

[Torn Mind]

Specs?

i5 8400
2TB HDD. I purchased a 2 TB SSD to replace that and keep that original HDD if I sell it again.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Too much coffee Igor?

Speaking for myself, the real fun in this hobby is where it has always been; used and low end stuff. Spend a bit of money and your build will do everything great = boring. For GPUs, ARC is the best thing in ages. These cards are actually fun to use i.e. the box of chocolates.

I just picked up a Ryzen 5500 for cheap to play with. I am playing around with overclocking coupled with trying to get the IF and ram synced with 4133MT/s. I could use tips on which voltages I need to be bumping up right now, if anyone is willing to help. I know what I can push with DDR and CPU, but how high do I go on the SoC? Which CPU load line level? I usually just set Zen 3 to ECO +200MHz PBO. But I have seen reports of the 5500 at 4700MHz all core regularly with little effort. No one mentions ram and IF speed though. I think that is where my stability challenge is. I am using the A750 LE with it to increase the challenges for gaming. And to add to the fun, it's in an m-ITX box. /hijack.

It's a hobby, if you aren't having fun with it, do something else. Some only DIY so they can enjoy their actual hobby of PC gaming. It isn't about the hardware itself, it's a means to an end. Some of us like messing with the hardware for its own sake. When I burnout on it for awhile, I focus on other hobbies more. Got a bread machine for Xmas, never owned one before, so I'm having a good time with it.

Heck, I nabbed a hexacore Acer prebuilt for about $75 of craigslist.

Cheap OEMs are fun too. I picked up one of those little HP gaming PCs during the pandemic. Putting in an APU that wasn't on the support list. Figuring out which "gamer ram" I could make work in it. Changing the cooler by finding the right M2 screws. That kind of stuff.

 

[igor_kavinski]

i5 8400

Pretty great deal. Considering I'm using a Haswell 4C/8T at my work, you've got more firepower than me

 

[Torn Mind]

Too much coffee Igor?

Speaking for myself, the real fun in this hobby is where it has always been; used and low end stuff. Spend a bit of money and your build will do everything great = boring. For GPUs, ARC is the best thing in ages. These cards are actually fun to use i.e. the box of chocolates.

I just picked up a Ryzen 5500 for cheap to play with. I am playing around with overclocking coupled with trying to get the IF and ram synced with 4133MT/s. I could use tips on which voltages I need to be bumping up right now, if anyone is willing to help. I know what I can push with DDR and CPU, but how high do I go on the SoC? Which CPU load line level? I usually just set Zen 3 to ECO +200MHz PBO. But I have seen reports of the 5500 at 4700MHz all core regularly with little effort. No one mentions ram and IF speed though. I think that is where my stability challenge is. I am using the A750 LE with it to increase the challenges for gaming. And to add to the fun, it's in an m-ITX box. /hijack.

It's a hobby, if you aren't having fun with it, do something else. Some only DIY so they can enjoy their actual hobby of PC gaming. It isn't about the hardware itself, it's a means to an end. Some of us like messing with the hardware for its own sake. When I burnout on it for awhile, I focus on other hobbies more. Got a bread machine for Xmas, never owned one before, so I'm having a good time with it.


Cheap OEMs are fun too. I picked up one of those little HP gaming PCs during the pandemic. Putting in an APU that wasn't on the support list. Figuring out which "gamer ram" I could make work in it. Changing the cooler by finding the right M2 screws. That kind of stuff.

I haven't asked my sister recently, but I originally wanted to upgrade the RAM to 16 gigs on the Acer....bought a bad pair; she reported crashing.
Right now, it has 8GB, one 4GB stick that was original. Then another 4GB stick from a super cheap Dell(i3-10100) also purchased this year for $75-85(I think). This Dell came with monitor, soundbar, Logitech wireless mouse, Lenovo keyboard. The person died and his son was trying to sell what he could out of the house(still might be on Craigslist).

 

[igor_kavinski]

Too much coffee Igor?

I had tea after a 4 day grueling water fast. It tends to have the same effect as coffee on me. I unfortunately cannot drink coffee anymore. It shoots up my blood sugar. For a few days in 2018, I was pissing acidic urine and wondering what the heck was going on? Then I visit the local mall after having two cups of coffee in the afternoon and suddenly, my eyes get all blurry. I immediately knew what the heck was going on. My blood sugar had skyrocketed. It was pretty hard getting back home with blurry and distorted vision and yep, the urination was painful as heck. That was the end of coffee for me.

Fortunately, I think I had some supplements like heavy dose Vitamin C or even Berberine (I don't document this stuff so it's all vague and hazy for me) so that probably helped me get my blood sugar down enough to sleep and survive the night. I'm just glad that I didn't end up in a coma or go to the hospital. Coma would've been OK but the doctors here in UAE are crap and they would've made things worse.

Once I lost sensation in my skin and I couldn't feel any pinches. Went to the hospital. They took four hours running various tests. In the morning, a neurologist came to question me about my symptoms and he deduced that I suffered some sort of epileptic seizure and recommended the relevant test for that. Of course, the test came back negative. That should give you some idea of the "expert" doctors I have the honor of meeting and why I prefer not to visit a hospital.

 

[maddie]

But it's not coming to desktop, is it?

Can it, with quad channel ram?

 

[igor_kavinski]

I just picked up a Ryzen 5500 for cheap to play with. I am playing around with overclocking coupled with trying to get the IF and ram synced with 4133MT/s.

I wish you much success in your super interesting endeavor! I hope you will keep us posted on your progress.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I haven't asked my sister recently, but I originally wanted to upgrade the RAM to 16 gigs on the Acer....bought a bad pair; she reported crashing.

Just get Kingston or Crucial for peace of mind. Bit pricey but you get trouble free operation.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Can it, with quad channel ram?

Good joke

Even frickin' AMD doesn't wanna give us quad channel RAM in the consumer space. It shoud've come down to us by now, leaving hexachannel and 12-channel RAM for workstations and servers.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee a quad channel system in my lifetime, short of a miracle or a lottery win.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Just get Kingston or Crucial for peace of mind. Bit pricey but you get trouble free operation.

OEMs can be really picky about ram. As I mentioned, I only had one kit that worked with the HP I had. The rest threw up error codes. Buying dirt cheap OEM ram off of Ebay is the safest bet. Since it was all harvested from similar systems.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Good joke

Even frickin' AMD doesn't wanna give us quad channel RAM in the consumer space. It shoud've come down to us by now, leaving hexachannel and 12-channel RAM for workstations and servers.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee a quad channel system in my lifetime, short of a miracle or a lottery win.

Isn't DDR5 technically virtual dual channel with one stick?

 

[igor_kavinski]

OEMs can be really picky about ram.

I think Dell mobos are pretty robust. My Haswell Dell PC was able to utilize the stupid Corsair RAM error free that wouldn't stop crashing on my Z97 Gigabyte mobo. Finally got Kingston and everything was dandy. That stupid Corsair RAM is collecting dust.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Isn't DDR5 technically virtual dual channel with one stick?

Yes but the bits are halved. It allows more data movement but the bandwidth isn't enough to call it quad channel.

@JoeRambo can probably elaborate better.

Or maybe @Gideon

 

[Glo.]

Good joke

Even frickin' AMD doesn't wanna give us quad channel RAM in the consumer space. It shoud've come down to us by now, leaving hexachannel and 12-channel RAM for workstations and servers.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee a quad channel system in my lifetime, short of a miracle or a lottery win.

AM6 should be Quad Channel IF we want to innovate the desktop DIY space, and move it towards HEDT.

And higher margins, I mean, Higher premiums. I mean, better prices. For OEMs. Obviously.

 

[yottabit]

If you get really bored you can always start hanging out on Vogons forums and reliving your past like I’ve been. That Pentium 200i I had collecting dust ended up getting the 233 MMx upgrade, a Voodoo 2, 120 GB Sata SSD and 8 GB compact flash for removable storage running a customized Win95 OSR2. Yes I hunted down and bought a pci SATA adaptor that had Win9x drivers. The disk speed is about as fast as the RAM bandwidth IIRC.