Anyone have spinal fusion surgery done?

[Homerboy]

My son was just officially diagnosed with Kyphosis. While there are several possible fixes, due to his age (15.5) the most likley "slam dunk" is to undergo surgery to straighten out his back. This would relieve the pain he has and fix it cosmetically going forward.

For obvious reasons, we're leery in pulling the trigger and we've been talking to doctors, reading up online etc etc. He's a VERY active kid with (what was) a promising baseball career (not pro, but college of some level).

I guess I just wanted to see if anyone has had the surgery, or know anyone that has and how it all went down. Recovery time. Pain. Rehab etc etc. Trying to ingest as much info as possible before we decide.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Ruptga]

Have you tried a Chiropractor or other physical therapy? Once you fuse bones and stuff there's not much else that can be done except for more surgery, it would be the last thing I tried.

I haven't had it done, but I do have three Chiropractors in my extended family. I'm pretty familiar with their biases and even after accounting for those I'm very sure I don't want anyone going near my back with a knife.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I am PMing you and should have my first response completed shortly.

 

[eits]

Don't get a fusion. All the newer research coming out is advising against using fusions anymore because of the same thing chiropractors and doctors of physical therapy have been saying all along; they destroy biomechanical movement and increase degeneration in adjacent areas, which will require surgery after a couple years.

The literature supports manipulative and manual therapy for these areas and strengthening the spine. Pain management is also an option to include in with chiropractic and physical therapy treatment for these areas.

 

[eits]

Homerboy, let me know if you have any questions or concerns. I'd be more than happy to help guide you in the right direction and try and find recommendations for you in your area.

 

[FIVR]

I had C6/C7 Spinal fusion in december of 2014 and it took me about a year to fully recover but I now am back to surfing every day for 1-3hrs a day without issue. I had fractured my C6 vertebrae and put pressure on the C6/C7 nerve bundle after a bad fall and hitting my head surfing on a rock reef in Laguna Beach and I had lost 50% of the strength in my right arm and all feeling in my index and thumb. It all came back after surgery, but it took about 9 months for feeling to come back.


The surgery is pretty serious and I was in the hospital for 3 days afterwards. I would recccomend you find a specialist, the doctor I had do this was out of network so it cost me and extra 20k to get him but it was worth it to get somebody who knew what they were doing.

If I had not gotten the fusion i wouldn't be able to play any sport again, period. My arm was lame. Poster above doesn't know what he's talking about, if you need surgery you need surgery. The alternative was 100-200mg/day of oxycodone for the rest of my life plus being partially paralyzed. No thanks I'm good off of your drugs. Wait, he's a chiropractor? Ok that makes sense now why he's giving you bad medical advice.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Don't get a fusion. All the newer research coming out is advising against using fusions anymore because of the same thing chiropractors and doctors of physical therapy have been saying all along; they destroy biomechanical movement and increase degeneration in adjacent areas, which will require surgery after a couple years.

The literature supports manipulative and manual therapy for these areas and strengthening the spine. Pain management is also an option to include in with chiropractic and physical therapy treatment for these areas.

And when you have severe degenerative disc disease in four discs causing three to be herniated pinching nerves causing sciatica with pain running down both legs, physical therapy can only do so much and chiropractors can not manipulate your spine to alleviate the condition. Strange you don't mention a physiatrist or even acupuncture for pain management. A foraminotomy and spine fusion can alleviate the sciatica.

 

[eits]

I had C6/C7 Spinal fusion in december of 2014 and it took me about a year to fully recover but I now am back to surfing every day for 1-3hrs a day without issue. I had fractured my C6 vertebrae and put pressure on the C6/C7 nerve bundle after a bad fall and hitting my head surfing on a rock reef in Laguna Beach and I had lost 50% of the strength in my right arm and all feeling in my index and thumb. It all came back after surgery, but it took about 9 months for feeling to come back.


The surgery is pretty serious and I was in the hospital for 3 days afterwards. I would recccomend you find a specialist, the doctor I had do this was out of network so it cost me and extra 20k to get him but it was worth it to get somebody who knew what they were doing.

If I had not gotten the fusion i wouldn't be able to play any sport again, period. My arm was lame. Poster above doesn't know what he's talking about, if you need surgery you need surgery. The alternative was 100-200mg/day of oxycodone for the rest of my life plus being partially paralyzed. No thanks I'm good off of your drugs. Wait, he's a chiropractor? Ok that makes sense now why he's giving you bad medical advice.

It isn't bad medical advice whatsoever. It's what the NEMJ, BMJ, and other credible sources outlined, unless you're considering them to be sources of bad medical advice.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/04/...eration-is-next-to-useless.html?mabReward=CTM

http://www.thespinejournalonline.com/article/S1529-9430(14)01544-7/abstract

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19657122

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26957098

etc.

Also, there are disc replacement options, even after you've had a fusion, which could be helpful.

Unless you're old and don't expect to be active or alive 15 or so years after the fusion, a fusion is fine. But if you enjoy moving around and expect to live longer than 20 or so years in good health, it's not a good option.

This also isn't just my opinion, it's also the opinion of the many orthopedists and neurosurgeons who refer patients to me and I refer patients to.

 

[eits]

And when you have severe degenerative disc disease in four discs causing three to be herniated pinching nerves causing sciatica with pain running down both legs, physical therapy can only do so much and chiropractors can not manipulate your spine to alleviate the condition. Strange you don't mention a physiatrist or even acupuncture for pain management. A foraminotomy and spine fusion can alleviate the sciatica.

I mentioned pain management, which is usually a physiatrist.

Acupuncture can help with certain pain issues, but not if faulty movement is the main cause of the problem. Acupuncture isn't magic. It helps decrease pain by releasing natural opioids in the brain and by helping release myofascial restriction.

If the degeneration is caused by abnormal movement patterns that you're unaware of or don't know how to change, then that's something that needs to be investigated to try and correct.

Look for someone in your area who is certified in SFMA and has good working knowledge of DNS (dynamic neuromuscular stabilization). I can help you find someone in your area, if you'd like.

 

[eits]

The bottom line is that if you destabilize areas that are designed for stability, then you increase the amount of dysfunctional mobility in those areas, most commonly lower cervical and lower lumbar regions. When that happens, you increase the wear and tear in those areas, which translates to disc degeneration, disc herniation, and/or facet hypertrophy, which can lead to foraminal or central canal stenosis, which leads to neurological issues.

I'm not saying that surgery is never necessary. What I'm saying is that fusions are being widely reconsidered due to these new studies coming out saying that, long-term, they do more harm than good, and rehab is showing way more promise toward alleviating symptoms and restoring quality of life.

 

[FIVR]

^^Everything you cited was outcomes after surgery for degenerative disc and osteoporosis. How does this support your conclusion that younger individuals should avoid surgery? If anything your data shows that older people should consider the possibility that the fusion will not be successful, but it says nothing about people with regular sports injuries.


My surgery was for a C6 fracture and C6/C7 disc herniation, and I was 28 when I had the surgery. I am now 31 and have fully recovered with zero physical therapy beyond my usual sports activities. I was in so much pain before the surgery that they had me on extremely strong opioid painkillers at all times. I could barely lift my right arm without screaming in pain. Traction could've killed me as there were flakes of bone broken off my C6 vertebrae that could have gotten into the spinal cord.


For younger non-smoking people surgery is the better option, because younger people have a better chance of successful fusion and have better recovery outcomes. Older people and smokers should stick to snake oil I guess, but I know as a non-smoking young person it was very clear that surgery was a way better option than drugs and a chiro.

 

[eits]

^^Everything you cited was outcomes after surgery for degenerative disc and osteoporosis. How does this support your conclusion that younger individuals should avoid surgery? If anything your data shows that older people should consider the possibility that the fusion will not be successful, but it says nothing about people with regular sports injuries.


My surgery was for a C6 fracture and C6/C7 disc herniation, and I was 28 when I had the surgery. I am now 31 and have fully recovered with zero physical therapy beyond my usual sports activities. I was in so much pain before the surgery that they had me on extremely strong opioid painkillers at all times. I could barely lift my right arm without screaming in pain. Traction could've killed me as there were flakes of bone broken off my C6 vertebrae that could have gotten into the spinal cord.

Obviously, a cervical fracture causing instability and risk to the spinal cord is a completely different issue.

Also, the logical inference can be made that if fusions cause more damage in the long run, due to the tons of evidence, that young people should not have a fusion, if possible, and try other things instead.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26957098
"CONCLUSION:
Circumferential lumbar fusion provides good clinical results at short-term follow-up. From 2- to 15-year follow-up, outcome worsened significantly. The high rate of ASD occurrence and reintervention questions the reliability of this technique for lumbar fusion."

It also just makes sense, too, right? I mean, if there's a global segment in which one of the motion segments is fused, that would require additional movement from the adjacent motion segment in order to compensate. That's why it degenerates so quickly. This happens, which is why it's an actual thing called "adjacent segment disease".

Again, as I mentioned before, your case is different than a majority of people who get or have gotten spinal fusions. My wife has a fusion in her neck from breaking it in a car crash when she was 19. She's in constant pain now. She's actually considering going to an orthopedic surgeon or a neurosurgeon to see about removing the fusion and getting disc replacements, because her neck just keeps getting worse, and she knows it's because C5-7 aren't moving and causing worsening degeneration to the levels above.

It may be something you might consider doing in the coming years when your neck starts to hurt, you get frequent tension headaches (i.e. 1+ per month), or the muscles in your shoulders and neck start stiffening up, and physical therapy or chiropractic care haven't been able to help.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I mentioned pain management, which is usually a physiatrist.

Acupuncture can help with certain pain issues, but not if faulty movement is the main cause of the problem. Acupuncture isn't magic. It helps decrease pain by releasing natural opioids in the brain and by helping release myofascial restriction.

If the degeneration is caused by abnormal movement patterns that you're unaware of or don't know how to change, then that's something that needs to be investigated to try and correct.

Look for someone in your area who is certified in SFMA and has good working knowledge of DNS (dynamic neuromuscular stabilization). I can help you find someone in your area, if you'd like.

YHPM

 

[DidelisDiskas]

Don't know much about surgeries, but i have had really serious back pain since i was 14 years old (at times i could not even stand up). A few years ago i was getting so fed up with constantly repeating pain, that i decided that i would find some kind of exercises that would help, no matter how long it took me. Well, i actually did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKH_JVlTGDQ

This guy has a book also, but the exercises he shows here are actually enough for me (although i do them for longer periods, up to and over a minute. Really hard to do also). I very rarely have back pain now that i do the exercises and also incorporate good posture in all of my movements. I'm not sure if it's what's happening, but sometimes when i start feeling pain after some sudden movement, i do the foundation exercise and seems as if something pops back into place (after a few short pain stabs) and the pain goes away.

While my lower back is pretty good now, still haven't found a way to deal with my neck pain issues. But those are much more mild than my back were back in the day. So would advise anyone with back pain to at least try out the exercises in the video and see if it helps (it will definitely make your back stronger).

 

[eits]

Don't know much about surgeries, but i have had really serious back pain since i was 14 years old (at times i could not even stand up). A few years ago i was getting so fed up with constantly repeating pain, that i decided that i would find some kind of exercises that would help, no matter how long it took me. Well, i actually did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKH_JVlTGDQ

This guy has a book also, but the exercises he shows here are actually enough for me (although i do them for longer periods, up to and over a minute. Really hard to do also). I very rarely have back pain now that i do the exercises and also incorporate good posture in all of my movements. I'm not sure if it's what's happening, but sometimes when i start feeling pain after some sudden movement, i do the foundation exercise and seems as if something pops back into place (after a few short pain stabs) and the pain goes away.

While my lower back is pretty good now, still haven't found a way to deal with my neck pain issues. But those are much more mild than my back were back in the day. So would advise anyone with back pain to at least try out the exercises in the video and see if it helps (it will definitely make your back stronger).

Mercola isn't exactly a great source for reliable information, but I'm glad that you're doing things to keep your back healthy and pain-free

 

[DidelisDiskas]

Mercola isn't exactly a great source for reliable information, but I'm glad that you're doing things to keep your back healthy and pain-free

This is not Mercola's exercise, Eric Goodman is the one who created them. These are the only exercises that helped me and i was really active in sports before that (basketball, weights), so i tried various things over the years. I also made some of my own variations of these exercises. I would advise you to try them out yourself, just to see how you feel after a week or so of these short morning sessions. I think you could find the full session of exercises somewhere on the internet (they are pretty good even if you don't have back pain). The one really good thing i took away from this, is that my weight should always be on the heels and the ass (glutes and hamstrings?) should be doing most of the support of the upper body. When i brush my teeth, or try to pick something up from the ground i automatically go into the posture that these exercises provide.

 

[FIVR]

Well I just googled Kyphosis and from what I can see, it doesn't really at all resemble the issue I had. My injury was extremely acute, debilitating, and painful... and it was a problem that had to be dealt with as soon as possible due to bone fragments possibly migrating and cutting the spinal cord. Kyphosis appears to be a more long term condition that develops over time. It might be a good idea to look into non-surgical means (depending on the degree of pain and disability) with this kind of condition.


Nonetheless, I do maintain that my surgery basically saved my life. I think spinal fusions are dangerous if you are a smoker or immunocompromised and they definitely should not be the first option you pick unless your life is threatened (as mine was).

 

[umbrella39]

I've had 2 fusions since 2012. C3-C4 ACDF and 2 years later T1-T2. Best decisions I have ever made. Could not feel my hands and feet any more and could barely walk due to a terrible stenosis in the cervical spine. Now single level fusions are much easier to get over and recover from.

 

[eits]

This is not Mercola's exercise, Eric Goodman is the one who created them. These are the only exercises that helped me and i was really active in sports before that (basketball, weights), so i tried various things over the years. I also made some of my own variations of these exercises. I would advise you to try them out yourself, just to see how you feel after a week or so of these short morning sessions. I think you could find the full session of exercises somewhere on the internet (they are pretty good even if you don't have back pain). The one really good thing i took away from this, is that my weight should always be on the heels and the ass (glutes and hamstrings?) should be doing most of the support of the upper body. When i brush my teeth, or try to pick something up from the ground i automatically go into the posture that these exercises provide.

Hehe I'm not sure if you know what I actually do for a living

I'm glad you're feeling much better and incorporating better stability and motor control in your daily movement patterns

The better you move, the longer you live.

 

[Homerboy]

Update Bump:

Sadly, after 2 years of being able to put it off, our son has decided to go ahead with the fusion surgery. He's been able to stave off a lot of the pain and discomfort with therapy and exercise, but sadly, it's now winning and he just wants to move on and get it over with and start working from a different angle. He can no longer sit in the school desks, he can no longer play his (more than) beloved baseball. The latter being the absolute crusher for him. He loves playing baseball more than anything in the world and really had potential to play at a high D1 level it wasn't for this scheuermann's kyphosis diagnosis. It sucks, but there are more important things in life which he realizes. There's a slight chance he can go back to playing, but certainly not at the level he aspired too a couple of years ago.

To give you some idea, while this isn't his xrays, they are pretty much an indication of what is the before and after he's dealing with.

This sucks.

 

[highland145]

Best of, homer. IIRC our boys are the same age.

Is the 42 normal or normal after surgery?

 

[Homerboy]

Best of, homer. IIRC our boys are the same age.

Is the 42 normal or normal after surgery?

That would be after. He's at roughly a 81* curve now. Post surgery, they aim for ~40* as that is (near) normal spinal curve. Not entirely sure what range of vertebra will be fused yet - we'll find that out next week during the pre-op. You can see the (approximate) hardware he'll be getting too in the photo on the right.

Edit: and he will turn 18 in June, so yeah, I think they are around the same age. He's a logical, responsible thinker. He's thought about this A LOT and I trust his choice. He wouldn't do it rashly or without weighing things through. I'd rather him do it now too, while he's under our roof and we can take care of him. The sick bastard wants a video of the surgery though!

 

[Fritzo]

Oh God...

My wife had spinal fusion done in 2003, however it involved using a titanium cage and I don't believe this method is done anymore. She's been in constant pain ever since...she was even disabled for about 8 years due to it. In 2013 she had corrective surgery and is back to 85% normal (she still lives with chronic pain and nerve damage, but not on the scale as before).

It's a risky surgery. I'd be leery of doing it while your son is still growing.

 

[Homerboy]

Oh God...

My wife had spinal fusion done in 2003, however it involved using a titanium cage and I don't believe this method is done anymore. She's been in constant pain ever since...she was even disabled for about 8 years due to it. In 2013 she had corrective surgery and is back to 85% normal (she still lives with chronic pain and nerve damage, but not on the scale as before).

It's a risky surgery. I'd be leery of doing it while your son is still growing.

Sorry to hear about your wife's problems. That sounds horrible

Yeah, no cages used any more - at least not in this scenario. This is 2 rods and screws attached to the posterior of the spine (cages were to the anterior). He is done growing - they actually won't do it if they are still growing. Which was good we didn't do it 2 years ago as he still grew 1-2" since then. He's about 6'3" now and, once straightened should gain 2-3" which will be crazy.

The doctor who is doing it does 2-3 a week at Children's Hospital of Wisconsin which luckily is right in our backyard and is world renown children's hospital. We've talked to and heard "testimony" from former patients ranging from 2 to 18 months post-op. Generally speaking, they had no regrets whatsoever.

 

[highland145]

Edit: and he will turn 18 in June, so yeah, I think they are around the same age. He's a logical, responsible thinker. He's thought about this A LOT and I trust his choice. He wouldn't do it rashly or without weighing things through. I'd rather him do it now too, while he's under our roof and we can take care of him. The sick bastard wants a video of the surgery though!

18 next month here. Absolutely, under your roof (and wallet). The logistics of him living somewhere else and needing care would suck. College?

video...just find one of the predator pulling out a spine.