Anyone here actually think Citizen Kane was the best movie ever?

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kgraeme

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2000
3,536
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Okay, first Citizen Kane is a better movie than LOTR.

As was mentioned, CK was fundamental in shaping the way movies are made and told. Now I also agree with the comment that it's like watching paint dry. Okay, it's not that bad, but the introductory bit is the hardest to get through.

Now I'm not a huge fan of LOTR, but I acknowledge that it was important in the history of the fantasy genre. I read the books way back when, probably before most of you were born. I remember really liking it, and being really, really bored at the same time. I mean come on folks, the story is tedious and dull. It's a lot of wandering around, eating lunch, wandering some more, running away, talking about wandering, eating lunch, and wandering some more. But much like Citizen Kane was important to movie making, LOTR (or more accurately The Hobbit) was important to fantasy.

I will admit that while I think CK was a better movie, I'll probably be more inclined to watch LOTR again. Shallow entertainment is just easier.
 

LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
3,679
0
0


<< oh, while i'm here. Our class just finished watching Easy Riders, and um, anyone want to explain that movie to me because I really really don't get it All I saw were lots and lots of drugs, a shotgun, two motorcycles, and people praying. >>




Oooh. Good flick. Been a while since I've seen it though. Ever seen "The Deer Hunter"?


Lethal
 

AaronP

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
4,359
0
0
"I will admit that while I think CK was a better movie, I'll probably be more inclined to watch LOTR again. Shallow entertainment is just easier."
-------------

hehe I'm the same way, I revere CK as a movie, and put it on a pedastol above all others, however there's a lot of movies that get put in my dvd player more often that CK.
 

Soybomb

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
9,505
1
0
Best movie ever? No. The best movie ever isn't just about technique, its also about the story the movie tells and the emotions it conveys and makes the viewer feel. While I will confess that the movie used many revolutionary techniques, the film based on Mr. Hurt's life wasn't all that particularly fascinating or moving. Of course this will all vary on a person to person basis.
 

AaronP

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
4,359
0
0
wanna know one interesting factoid about the movie, one that really shows how much of a trickster Welles was. Rosebud is the pet name Hearst used for his girlfriend's \*/ !!!
 

pulse8

Lifer
May 3, 2000
20,860
1
81
Yup and the puzzles that she does in the film are the same kind that Hearst's wife did.

Xanadu also mocks Hearst's castle.

Hearst tried to buy up every print of the film so that it wouldn't be released. He put pressure on and blackmailed several studio heads to also try and stop the movie from being released.
 

kgraeme

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2000
3,536
0
0


<< kgraeme:

I think you want this thread.
>>



Yeah, yeah. I'm just extra annoyed at all the LOTR stuff. I don't know if Citizen Kane is the best movie of all time, but I won't discount it either. I'm a little disappointed that neither Dr. Strangelove nor Wings of Desire are on the list at all.
 

Braves

Banned
Dec 16, 2001
884
0
0


<<

<< oh, while i'm here. Our class just finished watching Easy Riders, and um, anyone want to explain that movie to me because I really really don't get it All I saw were lots and lots of drugs, a shotgun, two motorcycles, and people praying. >>




Oooh. Good flick. Been a while since I've seen it though. Ever seen "The Deer Hunter"?
>>




Can't say I have. What we've seen so far in film class...

the original dracula
original wolf man
original frankenstein
dumb and dumber (for fun!)
pleasantville (teacher loves that movie)
citizen kane
on the waterfront
sunset blvd
easy riders
many charlie chaplin movies
couple marx brothers (personally i liked em better then mr. chaplin's)
couple hitchcock movies (vertigo, rear window, among others)
psycho
casablanca
we were a couple minutes away from finishing the graduate when the bell rang on the last day before winter vacation
dr. strangelove
the third man (oh god, our class almost killed the kid who suggested we watch that, even though we were going to watch it anyways)
rebel without a cause

wow, i realize now that i've listed these that i've seen more movies in film class this year then i've seen in the movie theatures my entire life (usually wait till their out at blockbuster )

 

kgraeme

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2000
3,536
0
0
You didn't like The Third Man???? I loved that movie.

Sorry you had to watch all that Hitchcock. Not my personal favorite.
 

LordHavoc

Junior Member
Aug 16, 2001
11
0
0
Ok,

Wait a sec? Citizen Kane was revolutionary in filmmaking, so that makes it the best movie ever? Pleeeze, give me a break. Doom and Wolfenstein were revolutionary and great games, AT THE TIME. There are probably and handful of people that sit down and actually play the original DOOM and Wolf-3D, and you know what, they're missing out, because there are way better 1st person shooters out there. In my opinion, Half-Life is king in that department right now, not Doom or original Wolfenstein.

Even though it's a shorter cycle for games, the same parallels can be made to film. Citizen Kane may have broken new ground in filmmaking, but that doesn't make it good, let alone the BEST movie ever, that just makes it ground breaking. Make another analogy to science. Anybody remember names liek Tesla, Millikan, Rutherford? No?? They broke ground, and made cool discoveries. Are they the best scientists ever?? Nope, because dudes like Einstein came along and made cooler discoveries.

How about technology? I remember my TNT was the best video card ever. Wait?? What?? TNT2 Ultra?? No? Geforce 256? Geforce 2 GTS? Pro? GeForce 3? Titanium?? Radeons?? Oh my?!?!

You get the point? As time goes on, advances are made in everything, including film. This is still a subjective thread, so you can stick to what you believe and stop the act about it being groundbreaking therefore it's the best . . . .

In my opinion, GodFather 2, Army of Darkness, and the first Lord of the Rings movie are the best movies ever. Kane doesn't come close to these films. And in another decade or two, somebody will top these movies and make better ones. That's how progress works.
 

Braves

Banned
Dec 16, 2001
884
0
0


<< You didn't like The Third Man???? I loved that movie.

Sorry you had to watch all that Hitchcock. Not my personal favorite.
>>



Actually, I slept through the two days that we watched the third man because I had come down with an illness that somehow made my eyes hurt really bad when watchign tv/computer and I missed those days. But from what I heard everyone in the class hated the movie, thought the music was really annoying. For me the music kinda helped me sleep

And as for hitchcock, I liked the ending to Vertigo, kinda twisted and weird and stuff. I didn't enjoy the documentaries on his movies though
 

pulse8

Lifer
May 3, 2000
20,860
1
81
As LethalWolfe already pointed out my analogy wasn't completely accurate. You can't compare science or technology to that of filmmaking. It's an art that hasn't changed all that much since Citizen Kane. The process is virtually the same. It wasn't just groundbreaking, it laid the foundation for every movie after it.
 

AaronP

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
4,359
0
0
CITIZEN KANE
BY ROGER EBERT

``I don't think any word can explain a man's life,'' says one of the searchers through the warehouse of treasures left behind by Charles Foster Kane. Then we get the famous series of shots leading to the closeup of the word ``Rosebud'' on a sled that has been tossed into a furnace, its paint curling in the flames. We remember that this was Kane's childhood sled, taken from him as he was torn from his family and sent east to boarding school.
Rosebud is the emblem of the security, hope and innocence of childhood, which a man can spend his life seeking to regain. It is the green light at the end of Gatsby's pier; the leopard atop Kilimanjaro, seeking nobody knows what; the bone tossed into the air in ``2001.'' It is that yearning after transience that adults learn to suppress. ``Maybe Rosebud was something he couldn't get, or something he lost,'' says Thompson, the reporter assigned to the puzzle of Kane's dying word. ``Anyway, it wouldn't have explained anything.'' True, it explains nothing, but it is remarkably satisfactory as a demonstration that nothing can be explained. ``Citizen Kane'' likes playful paradoxes like that. Its surface is as much fun as any movie ever made. Its depths surpass understanding. I have analyzed it a shot at a time with more than 30 groups, and together we have seen, I believe, pretty much everything that is there on the screen. The more clearly I can see its physical manifestation, the more I am stirred by its mystery.

It is one of the miracles of cinema that in 1941 a first-time director; a cynical, hard-drinking writer; an innovative cinematographer, and a group of New York stage and radio actors were given the keys to a studio and total control, and made a masterpiece. ``Citizen Kane'' is more than a great movie; it is a gathering of all the lessons of the emerging era of sound, just as ``Birth of a Nation'' assembled everything learned at the summit of the silent era, and ``2001'' pointed the way beyond narrative. These peaks stand above all the others.

The origins of ``Citizen Kane'' are well known. Orson Welles, the boy wonder of radio and stage, was given freedom by RKO Radio Pictures to make any picture he wished. Herman Mankiewicz, an experienced screenwriter, collaborated with him on a screenplay originally called ``The American.'' Its inspiration was the life of William Randolph Hearst, who had put together an empire of newspapers, radio stations, magazines and news services, and then built to himself the flamboyant monument of San Simeon, a castle furnished by rummaging the remains of nations. Hearst was Ted Turner, Rupert Murdoch and Bill Gates rolled up into an enigma.

Arriving in Hollywood at age 25, Welles brought a subtle knowledge of sound and dialogue along with him; on his Mercury Theater of the Air, he'd experimented with audio styles more lithe and suggestive than those usually heard in the movies. As his cinematographer he hired Gregg Toland, who on John Ford's ``The Long Voyage Home'' (1940) had experimented with deep focus photography--with shots where everything was in focus, from the front to the back, so that composition and movement determined where the eye looked first. For his cast Welles assembled his New York colleagues, including Joseph Cotten as Jed Leland, the hero's best friend; Dorothy Comingore as Susan Alexander, the young woman Kane thought he could make into an opera star; Everett Sloane as Mr. Bernstein, the mogul's business wizard; Ray Collins as Gettys, the corrupt political boss, and Agnes Moorehead as the boy's forbidding mother. Welles himself played Kane from age 25 until his deathbed, using makeup and body language to trace the progress of a man increasingly captive inside his needs. ``All he really wanted out of life was love,'' Leland says. ``That's Charlie's story--how he lost it.''

The structure of ``Citizen Kane'' is circular, adding more depth every time it passes over the life. The movie opens with newsreel obituary footage that briefs us on the life and times of Charles Foster Kane; this footage, with its portentous narration, is Welles' bemused nod in the direction of the ``March of Time'' newsreels then being produced by another media mogul, Henry Luce. They provide a map of Kane's trajectory, and it will keep us oriented as the screenplay skips around in time, piecing together the memories of those who knew him.

Curious about Kane's dying word, ``rosebud,'' the newsreel editor assigns Thompson, a reporter, to find out what it meant. Thompson is played by William Alland in a thankless performance; he triggers every flashback, yet his face is never seen. He questions Kane's alcoholic mistress, his ailing old friend, his rich associate and the other witnesses, while the movie loops through time. As often as I've seen ``Citizen Kane,'' I've never been able to firmly fix the order of the scenes in my mind. I look at a scene and tease myself with what will come next. But it remains elusive: By flashing back through the eyes of many witnesses, Welles and Mankiewicz created an emotional chronology set free from time.

The movie is filled with bravura visual moments: the towers of Xanadu; candidate Kane addressing a political rally; the doorway of his mistress dissolving into a front-page photo in a rival newspaper; the camera swooping down through a skylight toward the pathetic Susan in a nightclub; the many Kanes reflected through parallel mirrors; the boy playing in the snow in the background as his parents determine his future; the great shot as the camera rises straight up from Susan's opera debut to a stagehand holding his nose, and the subsequent shot of Kane, his face hidden in shadow, defiantly applauding in the silent hall.

Along with the personal story is the history of a period. ``Citizen Kane'' covers the rise of the penny press (here Joseph Pulitzer is the model), the Hearst-supported Spanish-American War, the birth of radio, the power of political machines, the rise of fascism, the growth of celebrity journalism. A newsreel subtitle reads: ``1895 to 1941. All of these years he covered, many of these he was.'' The screenplay by Mankiewicz and Welles (which got an Oscar, the only one Welles ever won) is densely constructed and covers an amazing amount of ground, including a sequence showing Kane inventing the popular press; a record of his marriage, from early bliss to the famous montage of increasingly chilly breakfasts; the story of his courtship of Susan Alexander and her disastrous opera career, and his decline into the remote master of Xanadu (``I think if you look carefully in the west wing, Susan, you'll find about a dozen vacationists still in residence'').

``Citizen Kane'' knows the sled is not the answer. It explains what Rosebud is, but not what Rosebud means. The film's construction shows how our lives, after we are gone, survive only in the memories of others, and those memories butt up against the walls we erect and the roles we play. There is the Kane who made shadow figures with his fingers, and the Kane who hated the traction trust; the Kane who chose his mistress over his marriage and political career, the Kane who entertained millions, the Kane who died alone.

There is a master image in ``Citizen Kane'' you might easily miss. The tycoon has overextended himself and is losing control of his empire. After he signs the papers of his surrender, he turns and walks into the back of the shot. Deep focus allows Welles to play a trick of perspective. Behind Kane on the wall is a window that seems to be of average size. But as he walks toward it, we see it is further away and much higher than we thought. Eventually he stands beneath its lower sill, shrunken and diminished. Then as he walks toward us, his stature grows again. A man always seems the same size to himself, because he does not stand where we stand to look at him.

 

LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
3,679
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0
The video game analogy is a limited one. Books, movies, films, music, paintings, etc. don't "become obsolete" like technology (or things related directly to technology) do. "Treasure Island" or "The Hobbit" aren't lesser books because newer books have been written.

Lethal
 

BlackSoul

Senior member
Feb 13, 2001
384
0
0
CK may be the best movie of all time, but damn if it didn't put me to sleep faster then a Kubrick film
 

LordHavoc

Junior Member
Aug 16, 2001
11
0
0


<< Lord, Army of Darkness wasn't even the best evil dead movie. >>




Ok, I agree that Evil Dead 2 is an awesome movie. Hell I'm a big Campbell and Raimi fan, but it wasn't better than AOD. You need to stop smoking the crack.

But they should start showing ED2: Dead By Dawn in HS film classes, if nothing else but to show kids Raimi's cool film techniques, preparing them for Spider-Man this summer

 

zod

Senior member
Oct 10, 1999
825
0
0
whoa whoa
now you've hit a chord.
i was just lurking in this thread... but kubrick?
cmon!

his last movie aside (not AI), how can his stuff put u to sleep (fine, 2001)
But Full Metal Jacket?
cmon!
Dr. Strangelove?!
CMON!
the shining?

heck, even spartacus was good (but too long).

and i havent even seen Paths of Glory.


 

LordHavoc

Junior Member
Aug 16, 2001
11
0
0


<< The video game analogy is a limited one. Books, movies, films, music, paintings, etc. don't "become obsolete" like technology (or things related directly to technology) do. "Treasure Island" or "The Hobbit" aren't lesser books because newer books have been written.

Lethal
>>




I agree with books and paintings, you have a point. But you're missing MY point. Movies don't fall under the "Timeless" grandfather cluase, so to speak, because motion pictures are a product of technology, and as that changes, storytelling through film will change and better movies get made.


 

LordHavoc

Junior Member
Aug 16, 2001
11
0
0
<<<SORRY!! DOUBLE POST!! >>>




<< The video game analogy is a limited one. Books, movies, films, music, paintings, etc. don't "become obsolete" like technology (or things related directly to technology) do. "Treasure Island" or "The Hobbit" aren't lesser books because newer books have been written.

Lethal
>>




I agree with books and paintings, you have a point. But you're missing MY point. Movies don't fall under the "Timeless" grandfather cluase, so to speak, because motion pictures are a product of technology, and as that changes, storytelling through film will change and better movies get made.


 

BlackSoul

Senior member
Feb 13, 2001
384
0
0


<< his last movie aside (not AI), how can his stuff put u to sleep (fine, 2001) >>



I have tried, and tried to get into his movies, I just can't. Not all them mind you. The Shining is one of my favorites, but that is because of Jack, he has a knack of even making crappy movies able to watch. I forgot about FMJ, I liked that too. Aside from that *yawn*. 2001, Eyes Wide Shut, and THE clunker of all time A Clockwork Orange. I have tried to watch that 3 or 4 times, have never made it halfway through yet. Oh well, I am more of a horror movie person anyway, the cheeiser the better.
 

LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
3,679
0
0


<<

<< The video game analogy is a limited one. Books, movies, films, music, paintings, etc. don't "become obsolete" like technology (or things related directly to technology) do. "Treasure Island" or "The Hobbit" aren't lesser books because newer books have been written.

Lethal
>>




I agree with books and paintings, you have a point. But you're missing MY point. Movies don't fall under the "Timeless" grandfather cluase, so to speak, because motion pictures are a product of technology, and as that changes, storytelling through film will change and better movies get made.
>>



I disagree (surprised? ). Movies are stories, and technology doesn't tell stories, people do. Books used to be written by hand, then people used typewriters, now computers are used. Does that mean that books written on computers are inherently better than those written by hand?


Lethal
 

uncouth

Golden Member
Mar 23, 2000
1,707
1
0
I disagree with your last question there, Lethal. Technique is one of the most important aspects of film making. You are referring to technique more as a medium, which it is not. If you were to compare 16mm film and 35mm or DV then your paper-computer analogy would be more relative but your comparison of technique to that is incorrect. Technique in filmmaking is like the rhyming scheme in poetry or the wording of a story. Let me nitpick one aspect of "Citizin Kane" to emphasize my point that technique is more important than just the way something is written or shot.

If you listen to the conversations in "Citizen Kane" there should be something that you notice that's different than in other movies or on television shows. Each speaker in the conversation does not usually wait for the other party to finish before they start talking or they sometimes talk right though someone else creating a complex and sometimes confusing conversation. The point is though that this is very different style, ie technique, of portraying a dialouge between characters it is effective and realistic. Plug in an episode or movie of "Star Trek" or the majority of movies and see if they have a similar way of showing conversation. This may seem like something subtle but I find this style of editing sound to be particualarly unique and fresh.

My personal favorite films are "Chinatown", "Casablanca", and "High Noon". "Citizen Kane" was excellent in many most/all ways but for some reason when I saw it although I realized its significance it did not ring the same cord in my heart as those listed above. Perhaps I saw it when I was too young... I was only about 12 to 14 when I saw it. Historically speaking I would have to agree that "Citizen Kane" made the largest changes to film as a whole than any other film.

And as long as I have your attention check out a movie I've made and PM or e-mail me your take on it. You seem like a pretty knowledgable group, in respects to films at least , nah, just joking, you guys are all right.[
 
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