anyone know 'roof pitch' ~ Construction / Architects discussion

[UnixFreak]

my freind knows roof pitch real well, when he went sledding down our steep roof right onto his face LMFAO!!

 

[IBhacknU]

I appreciate all the feedback. Let me answer a few quesions one step at a time:

flippinfleck ~ If you are doing the plans yourself, you may want to get in contact w/a pro before you fall in love w/a house that does not work!

How right you are. When I say I am working on the plans myself, I am only working out some ideas and basic floor plans. I will leave the real work to a PRO. I just want to be able to take 2D and 3D pictures to someone to better help them visualize the ideas in my head. Don't hear me wrong... there is nothing radical I want to do, I just want to be able to get my hands involved as much as possible.

Also, the original question about rise over run had to do with me keeping the height under the restrictions set forth by the Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions (CCR). Here is a scan of a diagram showing those restrictions.

For a two story structure, the 30' is not a problem. My lot slopes very similar to the diagram. For the best view, I hope to keep the house nearest the top of the lot. I will share some scans later of elevations I've drawn up, to give you a better idea what I'm talking about.

cpars ~ If you have more questions just look up my profile and visit my website or mail me and I will answer any questions you have. I am a licensed building contractor.

Thank you... I will do that

matter of fact send me some plane tickets and we will come build it for you... would love to see the place in person though

This is exactly what we need. An AnandTech community house raising project Don't worry, when I get this thing going, you'll all be bombarded with pics and questions.

MISTER 2 U ~ you are from Hawaii... I do not know what the building codes are there but,what I have seen on TV they seem strict. What are the building materials that you will be using to build your house???

Yes... from what I've heard, the codes are fairly strict (given the need to brace against flood and hurricane). If I can afford it, I'd like to build steel frame. Then again, my father-in-law is a mason, so I may do hollow tile 1st story and wood for the second? I haven't decided entirely yet. A lot is going to have to do with the costs involved. I raised the whole question of building materials a few months back: steel vs. wood

BTW, thanks for the detailed description on rise/run. You can be sure I'll PM you if I have any specific questions.

chansen ~ If you need any structural advice (calculating loads, etc.), I'm a structural engineer by trade.

COOL!

dcdomain ~ By the way, I'm trying to get some sort of construction job this summer, I don't really care if I get paid or not, but I think it'll be pretty hard finding one am I right? .... by the way, how's the industry looking like in the next couple of years? From my perspective, it doesn't look too good. Economy's cooling off, by the time I get out of school it'll probably be a b1tch for me to find a job huh?

Right now the construction industry (for residential) is very strong in Maui. LOTS of building going on. There are ads in the paper each week for construction workers. Wanna come to Maui for a bit?

OK.. time to get back to the proverbial drawing board. I'll post some scans later

Thanks again everyone!

 

[MrPALCO]

<< if you are implying that architects design cranes you are severly misguided, this is the domain of civil engineers. >>

 

[chansen]

Yes, structural engineers see lots of odd preliminary drawings from architects. Some appear to come from M.C. Escher himself - one would need a fourth dimension to build some of this stuff.

And yes, there are disputes between almost all the trades and designers. Building is an exercise in compromise. Probably the most common phrase uttered by structural engineers to architects is, &quot;Yes, you can raise the ceiling height by reducing the depth of the beams, but then the beams will be heavier and the structure will cost more.&quot; We should make stamps with this phrase. Same for mechanical - they have to somehow snake huge ducts around structure without all kinds of bends that decrease airflow. A decision made to move a structural element for them causes a ripple effect, perhaps all the way to the layout of the foundation (in the case of a column).

About the need for engineers, rahvin is basically correct. Up to three stories there are basic charts and tables that govern structural design. i.e. input the joist span and spacing, and a table will give you the size of the joist. Same works for wall assemblies, short lintels, and all kinds of simple structural components used in housing. When you get into longer lintels, steel and large wood beams, etc., then you need a structural engineer - at least in Ontario.

The worst type of architect is the artist. He has no bloody clue how a building is built, but he can draw an incredibly beautiful elevation of the entrance, complete with watercolours. When his buildings come out and the owner is happy, that means he had excellent engineering consultants and a good builder. Often though, the results are a beautiful building that is too hot or cold, has systems that are almost impossible to service, and cost way too much to build.

Whew, I guess I needed to vent...

Regards,
Craig

 

[MISTER 2 U]

Nice post Chansen,
I would rather have a engineer stamp on my plans instead of a architect.The artist part made me lol.

IBhacKnu,
another product which I like but , do not know if it will work in your area is SIP's
Structual Insulated Panels I have worked with them and like them enough to build my home with.
SIP info

 

[rahvin]

If you decide to go wood frame there are some really good manufactured products out there (not sure if you can get them in HI), my personal fav is TJI's from Truss-Joist McMillin, it's a manufactured wood beam for truss joists, has cut outs for utilities in the pieces and they go together pretty good and are a LOT cheaper than using 2x4 or 2x6's, well at least state side they are.

 

[IBhacknU]

I am considering having materials sent in (via container) as I think the costs will be less than purchasing them locally. I am totally open to these other materials mentioned and superior products. I think for lumber, it has to be treated specially (for bugs) in Hawaii. This is one of the reasons I'm leaning to a non wood building material.

 

[Ornery]

Mega dittos on chansen's post

IBhacknU, if you're willing to be the &quot;contractor&quot; on this project, you can save a bundle. The architect, engineers and designers just bump the price into the stratosphere with no value added. Well, if you got something complicated going on, that's different...

But anyway, all you need is a competent carpenter or &quot;builder&quot; in your corner. He'll know what is within code and help with the plans. You submit the plans to the city, make any necessary adjustments and voila, you're an architect!

Your builder will have leads to masons, electricians, drywall hangers, plumbers etc.. I doubt you'll have any more trouble lining them up than any other contractor does. Money talks and you'll have plenty to spare if you keep it out of an architect's pocket.

Good Luck Getting That Carpenter/Builder!

 

[BiggieN]

i'm up for a good Barn Raising!

 

[chansen]

Instead of wood, consider Cold-Formed Steel - similar in size to dimensional lumber, but causes tremendous problems for termites. It's common usage is for partitions (24 gauge), but heavier gauges (20, 18, 16 and 14) are now becoming common in residential housing as a structural system. Just don't try to cut the stuff with a Skilsaw.

Companies are springing up all over that will custom build panels. You assemble the house like Lego. I know, I used to work indirectly, but in house, for KML Engineered Homes out of Cambridge, Ontario. Very cutthroat people - really put the screws to us engineers to remove weight (money) from the structure when there was nothing else to remove that would satisfy building code.

Also called Light Gauge Steel Framing. Do a Google search.

Regards,
Craig

 

[dcdomain]

IBhacknU sorry for taking up so much space in your thread... perhaps I will take a trip out to Maui, never been there before. MISTER2U did hook me up with a lead back here in New Jersey though, so I'll be looking there first, have to take a class at Rutgers anyway (hopefully night class/school).

Anyway, with the comments about the engineers and such, I definitely agree. If I were to build my own home, I'd definitely run it by an engineer. For a small building, I guess for us having some structural knowledge, it would be more cost effective if we just laid out the structural plans ourselves. I know my math isn't that great, and you should see how a lot of the students struggle with the Statics and Structures classes.

The architects are definitely not to be relied on for any complex structural buildings, my view on the architects is that we are the GUI designers in the overall equation. We design a building first on how it people will interact with it, how they feel, how they move through the spaces/rooms and how they will utilize the spaces. But we also need to know a little about everything else, or it would take forever for our designs to become reality. We need to know how hard we can push before it reaches the point where it just won't work.

By the way, I learned a lot by reading this and the other thread Ibacknu started about steel vs. wood, are there any forums like this around about construction, architecture and what not?

 

[MISTER 2 U]

Ornery,

<<<<<<<<<<<You submit the plans to the city, make any necessary adjustments and voila, you're an architect! >>>>>>

LOL builders have the biggest mark up off all.

you better make sure he has a VERY good and CHEAP builder because he will spend MORE MONEY with the builder correcting his errors!!!I belive this is called &quot; on site changes&quot; it's a b!tch to go thru with the building and find out something does not work then have to work around and fix the error.

I have no prolems with people being thier own contractor just know what you are doing first.

 

[dcdomain]

Here I go posting again, about the architectural/construction forum I asked about. I currently own www.archcore.com and was going to put my portfolio up there, along with a general site about architecture, like new materials I read about it magazines (the light weight solar panels, the ductal concrete stuff and various other snippets I have read about in NONarchitectural magazines). Anyway, you guys think there's a demand for a forum like that? I don't really have the time to build my site yet cuz of school, but I could get a forum up and then build the site around it...

Looking into the forum software at this site...
http://www.infopop.com/

 

[highme]

being a CAD monkey definitely sucks!


Hey now, how else would I get to surf ATOT at work???


Speaking of which, I should be getting back to the proverbial digitizer.



Oh, I work for a small structural/civil/mechanical engineering firm in Portland, Or. Most of our work is figuring lateral loads for large scale residential and light commercial design.

Our biggest client Alan Mascord Design Assoc.

<edit>Oh yeah, about the lack of practical schooling in CAD software for Arch. students. In Oct/Nov I was doing some exploratory job searching. Seeing what was out there and what not. I had an interview with an architectural firm that specialized in hospital construction. Dude near crapped his pants when I answered his &quot;How much are you looking to make&quot; question $20 an hour. Apparently they just stopped hiring intern archs. to do the CAD work and started hiring trade professionals. He gave me some song and dance about $12 an hour being industry standard in the Northwest. Which led me to believe that Architects don't pay much to their support in general. Especially considering I have seen many engineering CAD positions that start at $20 an hour. So back to the point, I think it's a way for them to keep the cost of labor down. If they don't teach you CAD in school, then they can pay you less as you learn.

Back to the interview. They had me sit down with their top CAD jock to take a little &quot;test&quot;, it was really quite humorous. He asked me, &quot;How do you update all the text in the dimensions&quot; which is a pretty vague question, considering all the DIMVARIABLES in AutoCAD. I went through and changed variable after variable in the Dim dialogue box. Finally I changed the font scale of the dimensions, which was the right answer. The kid was pretty flabbergasted with the way I flew through the command line changing things. I should have given him a test and turned off a couple of hard to find, yet important variables. Such as ATTREQ and HIGHLIGHT. But I didn't. Amazing how this really made no sense, oh well.</edit>

And in answer to the first question (rise/run) a 6/12 pitch is 45degree angle if you haven't figured that out yet, and in my unsolicited, unprofessional opinion, as steep as you want to go with roof pitch. 8/12 looks good sometimes depending on the rest of the structure.

 

[MrPALCO]

I am still chuckling over the mental picture of a civil engineering group trying to design a crane.....

Anyway, here are a few thoughts:

For home construction, hire a local professional building co. and insist on a well developed and fully detailed set of specifications and drawings. These drawings should be review and stamped by a PE but should be designed by the builder and you. Also a standard contract which is crafted to apply to your project and reviewed by a construction attorney, will protect you in the event the contractor does not build according to plan. Insist on a small reputable firm and know who the key players on your project will be before you sign up.

Your best guarantee of a job that is constructed according to your plan with quality and integrity is your careful review of the builder and his people . Do not rely on the legal system to force your way to quality. You will not win in that arena.

With all due respect to the engineers who have voiced views in this thread, an engineer is not skilled at taking a small project from dream phase to completion with the same ease as an experienced builder.

If you have the skill, you can substitute your ability where appropriate.

If you have a very large project, a whole new set of rules apply. A professional engineering firm or construction manager riding herd on the contractors is the only way to go.

 

[highme]

<< I am still chuckling over the mental picture of a civil engineering group trying to design a crane..... >>




We (not really me, the engineers) have designed several cranes. However, we did have a lawsuit last year where one of the cranes failed (oops.) There was no loss of life or property damage, some of the lateral bracing failed somewhere and it just wouldn't work. However it did set the project back a long ways.


About MrPALCO's statement about engineers not being able to take a project from dream to structure. It's mostly true, however the 2 most senior engineers here were partners in a general contracting firm, for about 25 years, before they decided to focus solely on engineering. So, we could do a project like that if we wanted. But like MrPALCO said, it's best to take your strengths and focus them in one place.

Now, back to that Garage/Office addition I am designing.

<yetanotheredit>I have been doing some work for the structural drawings of a house to be built in Portland, designed by an Arch. in CA, that could be the worse set of drawings I have ever had to work with. Not drawn on snap, half of the freaking endpoints at wall corners don't meet, and plenty of SKYCRANE features.</yetanotheredit>

 

[MISTER 2 U]

Highme,
I went to interview with a design build firm as a drafter.
I do not have any CAD experience I still draw by hand.
The firm used mostly cad and was willing to hire me at a starting rate of $25.00/hr (east coast)
The head architect said &quot;I would be able to learn CAD with out any prolems because my drafting/building back ground.
Just to let you know.

 

[rahvin]

<<I am still chuckling over the mental picture of a civil engineering group trying to design a crane.....>>

Hate to break it to you but large construction cranes (the ones built on site to errect large sky scrapers) are designed by civil engineers. 3 people from my graduating class went to work for the company that designs 70% of the truss structures on those cranes. Civil engineers may not design the engine system but the truss is designed by structural civil engineers.

<<With all due respect to the engineers who have voiced views in this thread, an engineer is not skilled at taking a small project from dream phase to completion with the same ease as an experienced builder.>>

You don't hire engineer's to build houses, you hire them to make sure the structure meets code. Engineers are perfectly capable of design and managing a construction project, but the cost would be well over 10% of construction costs on a small project. Frankly I think people should be their own general contractor (for building a personal home), find a good drywall contractor and work back from them. (they know who the good carpenters are, the carpenters know who the good foundation and roofers are, etc..). Be prepared for a couple of disputed bills when you get done.

 

[IBhacknU]

this thread contains some HUGE info, and I will be printing it out at some point for further review.

If the damn customers would stop coming in a bothering me, I might actually get some fun 'work' done on this project of mine.

As for the whole project I'm talking about here, I already own the land.

Whoops... gotta run!

 

[cpars]

hate to correct ya Highme but a 6/12 is 27.5 or 62.5 on the reverse.

 

[cpars]

Mister2u,


I love change orders,everyone get 3d home architect and draw your plans !!!

:Q:Q

 

[Ornery]

MISTER 2 U, if you're talking about builders that merely assemble crews to construct houses, I might agree. I'm talking about a person that actually does the hands on work. The guy who is going to be laying up the walls for IBhacknU.

Any carpenter/remodeler that's got 10-15 years in that area with solid jobs under his belt will know what's what. IBhacknU will not have any plan approved by the city that doesn't meet code. This ain't rocket science by any stretch. As long as it's just one or two story residential, I don't see the need for an engineer or architect. Just check the references for your &quot;man&quot; and let him help you. By all means get the plumber in there at the beginning too, he'll probably kiss you!

 

[cpars]

I don't know about all that now, i know tons of them and have some working for me that still cannot lay out a set of steps unless you give them the rise and run, been in the trade all their lives.

I personally like the owner to have a set of architectural plans, what you see is what you get and thats what I bid, never never do verbal contracts as they are open to interpretation as the memory fades. architects act as a buffer at times for both parties. alot of times the owners want you to draw and submit plans for them and just figure its part of his job (it,s not) at least not for free.

Now to be on the real side if your building a garage or room addition and hire an architect you have way too much money and it should be taken from you for your own good (kidding)

 

[highme]

<< hate to correct ya Highme >>



It's ok, I am married and used to it


Another good alternative bldg. material is BlueMaxx. It's a hollow polyfoam lego type system that has internal support for rebar and after the wall is erected it's filled with concrete. One of the eng's in the office has done the lateral work on a couple of those projects.


And another visit from the &quot;Client from Hell&quot; file-

We did the gravity and lateral load design for a home that an Intel engineer designed for himself. First of all the plan was butttttt fugly. The worst part is that the guy was trying to micro manage everything. Super anal type stuff. He would get on the phone with the engineer on his project and ramble for 3 hours, all on the bill, and then wondered why we couldn't ever get anything done quickly. He must of have called 3-4 times a day for a progress report from me when it was in the drafting stage.



Also, there are quite a few contractors that are completely clueless as well. We should have a stupid contractor emergency phone here. Because the concrete truck is always &quot;On it's way and I need this fixed now&quot; and it's usually the contractor not bothering to read the specs and/or notes.

 

[cpars]