anyone know 'roof pitch' ~ Construction / Architects discussion

[MISTER 2 U]

Cpars,
<<<<<<<I love change orders,>>>>>>>>>>
I bet you make more money with change orders on napkins

Ornery,
<<<<<<<Any carpenter/remodeler that's got 10-15 years in that area with solid jobs under his belt will know what's what. IBhacknU will not have any plan approved by the city that doesn't meet code. This ain't rocket science by any stretch. As long as it's just one or two story residential, I don't see the need for an engineer or architect. Just check the references for your &quot;man&quot; and let him help you. By all means get the plumber in there at the beginning too, he'll probably kiss you! >>>>>>>

Any carpenter/remodler with 15 yrs experience NO maybe a contractor /builder.
Just because someone FROM THE CITY has approved his plans does not mean a thing (city employee need I say more?)
AS LONG AS IT IS RESIDENTIAL just a simple residental house never heard of such a thing.
He could do his own drawing's but I would have them stamped by a engineer.I lived in New Mexico for awhile and you draw your own plans and sumit them as long as they were under 3,ooo square feet.I now live in New Jersey and plans that are summited must be stamped by a architect so I think that depends where you live.
PLUMBERS = it easy SH!T FLOWS DOWNHILL
ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE no its not but I have worked on a house designed by a rocket scientist what a mess would not let him design my house.


<<<<<<<I personally like the owner to have a set of architectural plans, what you see is what you get and thats what I bid, never never do verbal contracts as they are open to interpretation as the memory fades. architects act as a buffer at times for both parties. alot of times the owners want you to draw and submit plans for them and just figure its part of his job (it,s not) at least not for free.

Now to be on the real side if your building a garage or room addition and hire an architect you have way too much money and it should be taken from you for your own good (kidding)>>>>>>>>>>>>

could not have said it better

Highme,
<<<<<<<<It's ok, I am married and used to it


Another good alternative bldg. material is BlueMaxx. It's a hollow polyfoam lego type system that has internal support for rebar and after the wall is erected it's filled with concrete. One of the eng's in the office has done the lateral work on a couple of those projects.>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have used a product call polysteel froms or AA block it is very popular and similar to blue max.
A engineer mentioned that by the time you add the rebar it is pretty expensive.
(#4 rebar every 24&quot; horizontal and vertical)




waaaaaahooo senior member and first on page two

 

[MrPALCO]

<< I love change orders, >>



Again advising for the Home owner, the least expensive place to make changes on your home is on the construction drawings, well before construction.

If you wait until you have started construction to finalize design, you will end up paying a big chunk of cpars new Vette, by running up expensive change orders.

 

[Ornery]

OK, how's this? Just buy drawings that are already done.* No sense reinventing the wheel. I doubt there's anything you want to build that hasn't already been built. Anybody see the need for an engineer or architect given that scenario?

* for a home in your particular area
(gotta cover all angles around here!)

 

[cpars]

been fun folks Im off to bed, h3ll its 10:00 and Im still up amazing!
As I said IBhacknU would be glad to help anyway I can and seems you got plenty more offers,really surprised me to see all the people in the trade here. OT is alright glad I stopped by

 

[rahvin]

<<OK, how's this? Just buy drawings that are already done.* No sense reinventing the wheel. I doubt there's anything you want to build that hasn't already been built. Anybody see the need for an engineer or architect given that scenario?

* for a home in your particular area
(gotta cover all angles around here!)>>

To build, it must have an engineers or architects seal (some states allow the homeowner to 'design' their own home and to not have a seal. In particular the foundation plan and the site plan are specific to the individual lot, even using stock plans.

 

[highme]

<< Anybody see the need for an engineer or architect given that scenario? >>




Yes and no.

In the UBC (codes) there is a way to design a home called prescriptive path. It's basically a cookbook, you design a home to meet their requirements and you don't need an engineer or architectural stamp. There is an exemption in the code for any 2 story structure up to 4000 sq. ft. per floor. There are a bunch of requirements in the lateral load department (seismic and wind loads) that require you to have a 4'x8' at 25' distances, not less than 8' (I think) in from the corners. So if you want to do a narrow house with a bunch of glass on the narrow wall you will need an engineer to figure out how. I draft up the lateral requirements for 20-30 plans a month from our main client, a large residential design firm here in Portland. With building codes getting more strict every year, the use of an engineer is going to be required more often. For all the jobs that we do that I do any drafting on, there are 2-3 per job more that the engineers have. A lot of that is mistakes (you mean there is supposed to be a steel frame in this house??,) and design changes (nah it won't be a problem to put a window there.)



Of course, if you live somewhere that the building codes aren't as strict, none of this matters.

 

[MrPALCO]

<< Anybody see the need for an engineer or architect given that scenario? >>



I like that idea Ornery, it would cut down on the number of redraws you CAD operator needs to do. Catalog home plans can provide a huge number of ideas at low cost.
Get your catalog plans in CAD formate and they will be easily modified by your own engineer during the review process.

All this may be overkill if you are building a one story 30 x 40 gable roof home on slab. But if you are building a multi faceted home with complex roof, wall and partition layouts, do it thoroughly on paper, first.

Here is another thought, have your builder approve stamp the catalog drawings before construction. That way, if he comes to you later and says he has to knock down a load bearing wall, cabinet or anything else, and relocate because of an ambiguity in the plans, you can remind him that it will be on his nickle.

Builders love screwed up plans, it means lots of rework and expensive change orders for the naive first time homeowner. One more reason to check out your builder very well in advance of hiring him.

Builders hate screwed up plans on large projects where you have to take on a well staffed developer owner with lots of lawyers to fend off your change order claims.

 

[cpars]

LOL, I do run a small const co now, but used to be a super for the larger commercial companies. 95% of change orders are on large commercial projects such as hospital work. lawyers are seldom involved but not ever.
It is widely known if you have been around a while that a seasoned project manager can see omissions and discrepencies in a very well detailed catalog of plans, and he bids the job with this in mind and is able to come in as low bidder and still make his profit. Change orders as they have been referred to here in a negative light are as much a part of the industry as choosing your finishes, anyone thats actually been around awhile would know this. many times a change order is not due to any one persons neglect, someone just changed their mind about layout or aesthetics after actually physically viewing.

On the residentail side(and I will be serious since my comments seem to be taken seriously) The contarctor is usually aware that if the owner is involved (not a spec house) that there will be some variations due to the nature of the client since building is not their trade and will take those in stride. But if you choose to be your own contractor that is fine by me, supply me the drawings you have wherever they came from and I will build it for you as long as you have permits and zoning.

Alot of those premanufactured plans are very generic and will require some additional cuts and details for approval from the local bldg dept.
for instance, footing depth to freeze line is region specific,perimeter insulation,concrete PSI and reinforcing, wall anchor depth and spacing and size,(all for slab). crawl space will need proper venelation per area of sq.ft specified and height from ground to bldg materials, bond beams with rebar#4or#5 depending on reigion, also poured cells at those locations for anchors if block foundation. Insulation- region specific with vapor barrier, 1 not 2. Spray for termite and pest control during build process. .25 PT material where in contact with masonery that is in direct contact with ground, .40 ground contact PT for decking posts etc.
Use engineered trusses or look at span tables and modules of elasticity and bending force for type of material used for rafters, rafter spacing and deck thickness are directly porportional (typically 2' OC with 1/2 decking residential)fastening systems are region specific according to wind zone. If you choose engineered lumber for your floor the manufacturer will provde you with the appropraite members per your specifications for span and live load. But be sure to ask for deflection!!!

We true building contractors know the structure from the ground up not just how to hammer some nails, and we have also actually done the work many many times, knowledge is never a bad thing but ther is NO substitute for practical experience period.

We just finished A job building the set for our local Tv station and 2/3 of our cost was in &quot;change orders&quot; and they are as happy as the law allows.
Do not be misguided that contractors are out to get ya, although some probably are just like any other business.
Our small co.


<< Builders hate screwed up plans on large projects where you have to take on a well staffed developer owner with lots of lawyers to fend off your change order claims. >>

never had a law team confront me on a change order although I have had our attorneys start a lien process on a chain store for ovedue accounts. people seem to think that money we pay our men with and purchase those materials, and rental equip. is somehow monopoly money that we really dont need back any time soon.

 

[cpars]

Ok whos from Austin I know your lookin

 

[MISTER 2 U]

good morning all,
As far as ordering home plans from a catalog I agree with Cpars they are very generic.
They still have to be adjusted to your local building codes.One client of mine use to buy the plans then have me make the adjustments needed and we would still have them stamped by a local enginner.If some came to me to design thier house but did not know what they wanted I would tell them to buy a plan book find what they liked and then come up with a design for them.What I tell my clients is &quot;You are going to live in the house not me&quot; I would take thier design and correct any mistakes that would not work I.E. = wrong door size,egrees windows , traffic flow ect.

As far as changes and change orders yes they are going to happen, people change thier mind.Yes it is cheaper to get all the changes done on the drawings before hand then in the field.Sometimes when the building is being built the client will change something.I was not trying to say that builders rip you off with change orders but,if someone drew his own plans with out any building knowledge there would be alot of change orders on the job site.

 

[Ornery]

Well, I'm really curious what you got going there, IBhacknU. How many stories? How many square feet? You want a steep pitch for aesthetics? Dormers?

As a homeowner here in NE Ohio, I can basically contract a job like that myself. The city I live in will give me the exact details of what codes need to be met. If you were to buy a complete set of drawings and list of materials, you could tweak it to meet your own local code.

I've got nothing against an engineer or architect's &quot;stamp&quot;. My beef is with having a architect, engineer and contractor piling overhead on a simple project like this. Paying a reasonable fee to &quot;stamp&quot; a drawing is one thing. Paying 30% extra for them to oversee a project is another.

There's no doubt that a good plan up front is the best way to keep costs down. I just can't see paying the insane premium that architects are asking. I don't know how things are done where you live, but slapping houses together around here is not that big a deal. The houses built here are very sound structurally. The corners that are usually cut involve fixtures, trim and the like. You probably have stricter codes for certain things, but the trades people you hire will be aware of them. And if your building department is like ours, you'll have a complete list of what needs to be done.

Can't wait to see pics of you swinging a hammer!

 

[cpars]

:Q, actually we strayed way far from original topic, but it was just alot of fun to find something here in my field. I would not consider such an exchange in a computer or network tech thread

Thats me up on top of those trusses in the treetops.

 

[Ornery]

Hey cpars, I hope you appreciate living in Asheville. That's beautiful country there! My wife and I were down there looking for work and a place to live about 20 years ago. There was no work for me, so we stayed here near Cleveland. We sure like the weather in that particular area. Actually, we were in the Winston-Salem and Greensboro section, but we passed through Asheville. A bit too pricey for us at the time! Hah, probably still is

Keep up the good work!

 

[cpars]

Ornery,

Yes I do appreciate our little city, I lived in New AWlenz(orleans) and Atlanta before coming back here for good and settling down. It is not that bad pricewise, but you can find those exclusive districts just like any other city that are outrageous such as Biltmore forest. Pay scale a bit lacking for several occupations though.



IT'S HOME

 

[highme]

Our main client has several hundred (thousands???) of plans. Most are marketed in the Better Homes &amp; Gardens type plan books, some are customs, some are the base plan out of the catalog with some tweaking on it. The engineering charges vary depending upon the plan. If you buy one of Mascords plans to be built in Washington or Oregon out of the planbooks and don't do any tweaking to it, the lateral will cost you $150, and most of the plans can't be built in Oregon or Washington without the lateral packet. Most of our custom and option work runs from $300-2500 depending upon the house. The biggest, most expensive plan that I have worked on was a 8000 sq ft monster. We also did an option in the fall for a lady that was super paranoid and wanted her house engineered to the strictest requirements, she ended up with 4 steel frames in it, which cost about $1000 a piece, just for the engineering. That was what we call overkill here.

 

[MISTER 2 U]

all you need is a competent carpenter or &quot;builder&quot; in your corner


<<<<<<<<<<<BETHLEHEM, Pennsylvania (AP) -- A Pennsylvania construction worker accidentally cut off his hand with a power saw and then shot himself in the head with a nail gun several times, apparently hoping to end his pain, police said.

William Bartron, 25, had at least a dozen 1-inch nails protruding from his scalp, police said. He underwent surgery to reattach the hand and was hospitalized in stable condition Wednesday, said his employer Greg Soltis.

Bartron severed his hand Tuesday while using a miter saw in the basement of another man's home, police said.

After finding Bartron, the man called emergency. Soltis arrived a short time later.

Soltis said Bartron had shot several nails into his head with a pneumatic gun &quot;because he could not stand the pain from the amputation,&quot; according to police. >>>>>>>


NOT THIS ONE LOL

 

[dcdomain]

Oh man, you guys are scaring me... does everyone dislike architects?! I know my pay will be dirt poor, but damn, it seems like architects are overcharging too? How's that work anyway, overcharge and still make dirt pay... damn, I'm guessing I'll definitely be sent over to China. :disgust:

 

[IBhacknU]

Welcome back guys (I don't see any gals here):

I had to leave this thread 10 days ago. I call from the hospital said it was time for the latest addition to our family

Anyway, a HUGE thanks to everyone who contributed info to this thread. I was gonna start a new thread, but this one got such a good response, I thought I'd just bump it here.

Ornery asked:

<< Well, I'm really curious what you got going there, IBhacknU. How many stories? How many square feet? You want a steep pitch for aesthetics? Dormers? >>

The whole roof/pitch thing came up because of design standards by the association in my neighborhood. &quot;the roof pitch must be between four(4) in twelve(12), and eight(8) in twelve(12). Low pitched roofs with large overhangs are recommended.&quot;

The house I'll most likely build will be two stories, have the living space upstairs (kitchen, dining room, living room, master bedroom) and the other bedrooms/office and garage downstairs. This is to make the most of the view. Square footage will be determined by how much I can afford to build (read, how much I can afford to borrow). When all is said and done, I need to be able to afford the monthly mortgage.

As for the designing and building of the project. I can't do the building myself or act as the GC. No owner/builder permits allowed in this development. I'd like to be involved in all aspects of the design and building, and try to get most of it right before we break ground.

I've got some time to get ready for this project. My plans don't have me starting construction till sometime in the middle of next year (16 months). Do any residential builders ever get it right the first time (on a custom design). Then again, how many have used the resources of those on this forum?

 

[Ornery]

Wow, this is exciting! Beautiful view :Q Hate to waste that in any way!

Already it sounds like you are doing something pretty unconventional. You would want the living area to be at grade level usually. You might be better off going to a bi-level (very efficient design), but the first thing visitors see when they step in your front door will be stairs. Not a first choice, but many people go that route.

One thing I've had in the back of my mind, if I were to build a &quot;dream&quot; house, is the fact that my wife or I may become disabled in our old age. In other words, think about accessing this house in a wheel chair. Wide doorways and passageways would be a must as well as most living space on the same level. The entrance would have to be at grade level to avoid ramps and such. To add these changes at the beginning of a project is cheap. To incorporate them in an existing house is very expensive and aesthetically poor.

What does the neighbor's house look like? Their view? Don't reinvent the wheel here. I'm sure there are houses already built in that area that would suit you, no? I'm not going to say you might need a designer here, but man, I'm on the verge!

Who is going to be doing the contracting for you? Get the numbers for his contacts for plans and designs. Pick his brain too. I'm know he'll have a lot of his own notions. Might be a good way to weed out one builder from another if you find their ideas to be against yours.

Keep bouncing those thoughts back here. This is really cool. Beats the hell out of politics and religion!

 

[IBhacknU]

In this development, of the lots that are currently built, or in the process of being built, close to 75% of them utilize the 'unconventional' upstairs living space. I know this creates the issue of forcing guests upstairs, and that's not always the welcoming of foyers.

The split desin will probably be the approach I take. From the foyer, half a staircase up, and the other half of the staircase down. If the upstairs is bright with lots of windows, then the moment someone enters the upstairs living space, they are going to be rewarded with a view worthy of the short trip they just took. Besides, the door to door salespeople need not see my house

I am doing my homework with the homes in the framing stage, and making copies of plans, and getting architects names when I see a plan that may fit my lot size. I don't want to re-invent the wheel, nor do I want to spend gobs of money designing a house that's already been designed. While I will have some specific desires, those can be tweaked easily before the thing ever gets started.

As for the houses next to mine... well, right now there are none. Not a single house on my street yet. The guy next to me is breaking ground sometime next month, and I'll be able to see what they are doing with their lot and elevations.

I really need to get working on floor plans and elevations and then post some of those ideas here on the board. I'm sure the feedback would be ideal.

 

[Ornery]

I don't think I could pull this off around here, but you may be able to. Since the grade drops off quite a bit, maybe you could have a normal ranch that uses the basement as living space. It possibly could walk out at grade level from the rear. Uh, the slope is down from the back, right?

There is no way we would be allowed to count basement space as &quot;living&quot; space here. Perhaps it doesn't matter there. That would be really efficient use of space and materials too. Same with heating and cooling. Awesome way to go.

My wife gasped when she saw the view. She wants to move next door!

 

[IBhacknU]

I was looking for the pictures I've taken of the site, but I can't seem to find them now. The link I gave doesn't even do the view justice (if you can beleive that).

The whole elevation and slope thing has me the most concerned right now. There are certain convenants in the CC&amp;Rs which specify building height and I'm trying to work around those.

From the front of the lot (on the curb where the driveway would be) you face the ocean. The lot slopes about 12' down over its 110' length. Given this sloping, I have considered the idea of a 'daylight basement'

con't

 

[IBhacknU]

With this design, the entry level is ground level from the street, but because of the natural contour of the lot, you have a 'basement' which peeks out from the back of the property. For all intents and purposes, it's a two story, with a garage and entry on first floor.

The only reason I am against this design is because I want maximum height. Keeping the foundation near the top of the lot (by the street), I can get more height, and thus a better view. This type of construction will be more expensive though.

Let me cut and paste something I've been playing with. BRB!

 

[IBhacknU]

This is an idea using post and pier for a portion of the property. The main reason I'm considering this is the additional storage space. The convenants would require the house to appear to 'grow' from the ground. I would need to install siding to cover the lower storage area.

post/pier

I would consider building a true basement, but the CC&amp;Rs only allow for two stories

 

[Ornery]

No basement? :Q Would they let you drop the front into the ground by, oh, 5 feet like so? You lose that storage, but the entry may be able to be just a few steps up on the outside.

Perhaps the garage could be on the piers with storage underneath instead. But talk about needing an architect! Might not be worth the trouble...