Apparently powerline adapters aren't completely transparent, can anyone explain why?

[Viper GTS]

The g/f worked out a deal with her friend/landlord where she would share her Comcast internet service with him and he would give her a discount on rent. He's cheap, she could use the discount, so everybody wins.

This leaves me with the responsibility of getting wifi coverage into his area of the triplex. Her primary wireless router is nearly invisible from his part of the building so my idea was to connect a wireless AP to powerline ethernet adapters. He'd have his own SSID and should have great coverage within his house.

Unfortunately it hasn't turned out to be that simple. While I can connect to the AP and pull a DHCP address from her core router (and my wireless devices show up in her client list on the physical port the powerline adapter is connected to) I have no IP connectivity. Wireshark reveals that my laptop is not receiving responses to the ARP request when I attempt to ping the core router. A laptop connected directly to the powerline adapter (instead of the AP) works fine.

My basic setup looked something like this (with the Trendnet TEW-637AP N upgrader):

(Core router) <- CAT5 -> (Powerline Adapter) <- House wiring -> (Powerline Adapter) <- CAT5 -> (Trendnet AP) <- WIFI -> (End device)

I then took my old WRT54G router running Tomato and used it in the same fashion (disabled the WAN port, turning it into an AP of sorts). Initially I thought I had solved it, when I was configuring it via CAT5 it worked perfectly but it failed in the same manner when on WIFI.

So now we have:

Works:

(Core router) <- CAT5 -> (Powerline Adapter) <- House wiring -> (Powerline Adapter) <- CAT5 -> (WRT54G AP) <- CAT5 -> (End device)

Doesn't Work:

(Core router) <- CAT5 -> (Powerline Adapter) <- House wiring -> (Powerline Adapter) <- CAT5 -> (WRT54G AP) <- WIFI -> (End device)

I then went back to the g/f's space and eliminated the powerline adapters. Then the Trendnet AP worked exactly as I would expect.

(Core router) <- CAT5 -> (Trendnet AP) <- WIFI -> (End device)

This config works flawlessly and is fast.

So. What am I missing here? I'm not capable of explaining what is going on here, particularly since using wired connections on the WRT54G works fine. For what it's worth I've tried this with AP isolation on and off, with no difference. Since both the Trendnet and the WRT54G/Tomato behave the same way I'm convinced there must be something fundamentally correct about what is happening, and I'm guessing it's because the powerline adapters are not behaving as a transparent (albeit high latency) CAT5 cable.

Any ideas as to what's going on? Better yet any suggestions on how I can make it work without running CAT5?

Viper GTSa

 

[Engineer]

So you had the WRT54G with Tomato set for Access Point in the Basic setup (wireless subsection)?

Also, did you turn off DHCP of the AP?

Did you give the WRT54G an IP address on the same subset of the main router's network or did you let it try to get one through DHCP (not sure if that works or not, never tried)?

The reason it works when directly to CAT from WRT54G is the fact that it's simply acting as a switch. I personally think there is a setup issue with the WRT54G/Tomato and nothing to do with the powerline adapters.

 

[Pulsar]

Are the powerline adapters passthrough, or do they require their own IP address? If they are indeed passthrough, did you disable DCHP on your router after the powerline adapter and let the router up front assign IP addresses?

 

[Modelworks]

Install wireshark and see what the network is reporting

 

[Viper GTS]

In all cases DHCP was only coming from the core router. In the case of the Trendnet it is just an AP - No routing capability.

I tried both static and DHCP for IP assignment on the remote connected AP, it made no difference. In all cases connected clients can ping the AP but nothing beyond it.

I've already run Wireshark, the issue is there is no ARP response when going over powerline adapters. I captured these last night, they were run back to back with the same exact config on the Trendnet. I just swapped network cables feeding it.

Over powerline:

http://www.fileswap.com/dl/XOB9lFtXam/powerline.pcap.html

Over direct CAT5

http://www.fileswap.com/dl/qPmVHHMrvE/cable.pcap.html

The Powerline adapters don't have IP addresses, they're pre-paired out of the box and don't require any configuration as long as you're only using the two.

Viper GTS

 

[Engineer]

When setting the AP IP Address manually, did you plug in your main router IP address in the Gateway box?

Have you ever tried connecting the WRT54G directly via CAT5 to see if the result is the same as powerline?

Here is my setup for reference (MAC and SSID blocked out):

 

[jjboller]

I'm having the exact same problem. For me it appears that the netgear powerline adaptors are not allowing the AP to hit the DHCP server from my main router.

My configurations are:

WORKING
internet ------Fios Router --- Cat5-----Netgear WNDR3700 as AP -- CAT5 or WiFi----end device

WORKING
internet ----Fios Router----Cat5-----Netgear Powerline ---home wire-----Netgear powerline -----Cat5----Netgear WNDR3700 as AP------ Cat5----end device

NOT WORKING
internet ----Fios Router----Cat5-----Netgear Powerline ---home wire-----Netgear powerline -----Cat5----Netgear WNDR3700 as AP------ WiFi----end
device

When using the powerline adaptors and attempting to connect via WiFi from the AP there is no response from the DHCP. If you find a way to correct this problem please let me know. I don't know if a different brand of powerline adaptors would work. Maybe they would allow a clearer pass through of the signal.

 

[Lansharks]

I'm seeing the same thing:

Works:
Main Router/DHCP server > Cat 5 > AirPort Express or Extreme (in bridge mode = AP) > WiFi (WiFi clients get DHCP served 192.168.50.x addresses)

Works
Main Router/DHCP server > Cat 5 > NetGear XAV1501 PowerLine > Home Wire > NetGear XAV1501 PowerLine > Cat 5 (Cat 5 clients get DHCP served 192.168.50.x addresses)

Works:
Main Router/DHCP server > Cat 5 > NetGear XAV1501 PowerLine > Home Wire > NetGear XAV1501 PowerLine > AirPort Extreme (in bridge mode = AP) > Cat 5 (Cat 5 clients get DHCP served 192.168.50.x addresses)

Broken:
Main Router/DHCP server > Cat 5 > NetGear XAV1501 PowerLine > Home Wire > NetGear XAV1501 PowerLine > AirPort Express or Extreme (in bridge mode = AP) > WiFi (client self assigns a 169.x.y.z address)

It seems as though the NetGear XAV1501 isn't passing the DHCP request for WiFi clients for some strange reason.

I've also tried this with some old EX102 PowerLine adapters - same thing. And I've tried in two different houses, with 3 different AirPorts (all in Bridge/AP mode).

It's making me pull my hair out... anyone?

Thanks!

 

[fhturner]

Did y'all ever figure out what's going on here? I am experiencing the EXACT same behavior as Lansharks lists w/ his AirPort network. Why on earth would connecting the client machine via Ethernet to the PowerLine adapter work while using WiFi via AirPort Extreme (Express in my case) doesn't?? Oddly, I have another client setup that has a "distant" AP Express and does not show the same issues. I don't recall the model of PowerLine adapters though...

Thx,
Fred

 

[SoCalScott]

I have this exact problem. Was anyone ever able to come up with a solution?

 

[ATF678]

Here are two combinations I tried recently.

If you want the second wireless router to have its own SSID, then the following
1. Internet to WAN port of #1 wireless router (DHCP On, AP mode)
2. #1 Wireless Router LAN to #1 Powerline to #1 Outlet
3. #2 Outlet to #2 Powerline to WAN port on #2 wireless router (DHCP On, AP mode, SSID different than wireless #1).
4. This method gives a slightly higher level of security by placing the two lans on separate subnets, and then you can invoke some windows and router security rules.

If you want the #2 wireless router to have the same ssid as #1 wireless router and be on the same vlan then the following.
1. Internet to WAN port of #1 wireless router (DHCP On, AP mode)
2. #1 Wireless Router LAN to #1 Powerline to #1 Outlet
3. #2 Outlet to #2 Powerline to LAN port on #2 wireless router (DHCP Off, WDS mode, SSID same as wireless #1).
4. All Static IP settings should be set on #1 Wireless router
5. All clients will be on the same subnet, so browsing the network shares will be easier.

I have done both these scenarios on E2000 wireless routers running tomato with Zyxel PLA4205 powerline adaptors.

 

[SoCalScott]

Here are two combinations I tried recently.

If you want the second wireless router to have its own SSID, then the following
1. Internet to WAN port of #1 wireless router (DHCP On, AP mode)
2. #1 Wireless Router LAN to #1 Powerline to #1 Outlet
3. #2 Outlet to #2 Powerline to WAN port on #2 wireless router (DHCP On, AP mode, SSID different than wireless #1).
4. This method gives a slightly higher level of security by placing the two lans on separate subnets, and then you can invoke some windows and router security rules.

If you want the #2 wireless router to have the same ssid as #1 wireless router and be on the same vlan then the following.
1. Internet to WAN port of #1 wireless router (DHCP On, AP mode)
2. #1 Wireless Router LAN to #1 Powerline to #1 Outlet
3. #2 Outlet to #2 Powerline to LAN port on #2 wireless router (DHCP Off, WDS mode, SSID same as wireless #1).
4. All Static IP settings should be set on #1 Wireless router
5. All clients will be on the same subnet, so browsing the network shares will be easier.

I have done both these scenarios on E2000 wireless routers running tomato with Zyxel PLA4205 powerline adaptors.

What kind of Powerline adapters are you using?

 

[Zxian]

I have done both these scenarios on E2000 wireless routers running tomato with Zyxel PLA4205 powerline adaptors.

What kind of Powerline adapters are you using?

Really? Really?!? *facepalm*

 

[SoCalScott]

Really? Really?!? *facepalm*

Zxian: Not sure what you're trying to say. I'm trying to figure out a problem. Clearly you're not able to offer a solution.

 

[Fardringle]

Zxian was being very helpful (if a bit sarcastic). You asked what type of powerline adapters ATF678 is using, when it states the exact model number at the bottom of his her/post. Zxian re-quoted that line again in response to your question.

Frankly, I was going to do exactly the same thing except maybe without the *facepalm*...

 

[SoCalScott]

Zxian was being very helpful (if a bit sarcastic). You asked what type of powerline adapters ATF678 is using, when it states the exact model number at the bottom of his her/post. Zxian re-quoted that line again in response to your question.

Frankly, I was going to do exactly the same thing except maybe without the *facepalm*...

Newbie mistake. My apologies. Frankly, however, the courteous thing would have been to simply point that out.

 

[JackMDS]

Run on the working scenario a software network scanner on one of the computers that works with the main Router and see the report.

Then compare it with the Network that is broken "Broken".

http://www.softperfect.com/products/networkscanner/

Assuming that there is No electrical issue that deem the Powerline adapters useless on the specific electrical system/circuits, you have to make sure that all the devices that are assigned with IPs are on the same subnet.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I don't know exactly how these work but my guess is they use the neutral and hot for transmit/receive and can only do one or the other at once. So if the adapters are on a different power leg or phase, or there is a transformer between, it wont work.

Plug it around different outlets to see if it changes things, of course this may not work if one apartment is completely on one leg and the other is on the other, or it may be 3 phase and 1 phase per apartment or something.

 

[JackMDS]

I don't know exactly how these work but my guess is they use the neutral and hot for transmit/receive and can only do one or the other at once. So if the adapters are on a different power leg or phase, or there is a transformer between, it wont work.

Plug it around different outlets to see if it changes things, of course this may not work if one apartment is completely on one leg and the other is on the other, or it may be 3 phase and 1 phase per apartment or something.

+1

These so call Network Devices need to compensate for Dirty Power line.

I.e., same adapter can work OK on one outlet, and introduce problems on another because of Spikes, fluctuations, and other electrical lines Noise that might Not disturb a "Brew Cooler" but do disturb Ethernet Network signal.