Question Apple A15 announced

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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,835
5,452
136
Seems like the CPU or GPU is not much faster than A14. Might be due to wanting lower power draw for better battery life.

The NPU did get a bump, 15.8 vs 11.8 tops.

Edit: The Pro does get an increase to 5 GPU cores from 4. Might be useful because of the 120 Hz VRR they added.
 
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eek2121

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2005
3,051
4,273
136
I'm not seeing a hugely compelling reason to move on from my A13-powered iPhone 11 Pro. I've never had my battery go below 20%, even on vacation; the pictures are great already and the videos are quite solid for what they are, especially with the ability to do slo-mo which the kids LOVE with their sports and activities (jumping in the pool, scoring goals in soccer, video of them on Drop Zone rides, etc); and I can't remember ever having a hiccup with respect to the hardware. Everything I want to do is incredibly snappy on the A13.

Honestly, the lack of progress is a bit of a compliment. Their product (A13 in particular, but also the iPhone 11 Pro) is just so good that it's already at the limit of what even I could ever need from a phone, CPU/GPU wise.

Kudos to Apple because power savings will be wonderful for many, and the 15-30% speed increase of A15 over A13 might make a difference for some, but I'll be waiting another year.

Apple has a killer trade in program. That is why I am upgrading. It will only cost me a few hundred bucks for the Pro Max.
 
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nxre

Member
Nov 19, 2020
60
103
66
Seems like this generation was plagued by internal problems with lots of engineers leaving the team in early 2019 and since then. Some people are speculating they postponed the new CPU core to 2022.
The Apple Watch SOC is also using the same CPU from last gen with no improvements so this adds fuel to the theory of internal problems/delays in the CPU design team.
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
2,486
4,049
136
I'm not seeing a hugely compelling reason to move on from my A13-powered iPhone 11 Pro. I've never had my battery go below 20%, even on vacation; the pictures are great already and the videos are quite solid for what they are, especially with the ability to do slo-mo which the kids LOVE with their sports and activities (jumping in the pool, scoring goals in soccer, video of them on Drop Zone rides, etc); and I can't remember ever having a hiccup with respect to the hardware. Everything I want to do is incredibly snappy on the A13.

Honestly, the lack of progress is a bit of a compliment. Their product (A13 in particular, but also the iPhone 11 Pro) is just so good that it's already at the limit of what even I could ever need from a phone, CPU/GPU wise.

Kudos to Apple because power savings will be wonderful for many, and the 15-30% speed increase of A15 over A13 might make a difference for some, but I'll be waiting another year.


Yeah I had already decided to stick with my 11 pro max, and would make the same decision even if Cook had announced A15 was 50% faster and various rumors were true and it was notchless and included the satellite messaging thing - and I don't have 5G anywhere near me so that's not an incentive either. Damn phone is so fast already it is hard to see how being faster would benefit me since I'm not a big gamer. I mean sure being faster would mean better battery life if you are doing the same stuff (i.e. CPU cores get to idle faster) but I don't have any use for better battery life.

The first year I had it I charged it once every three days, the second year I've charged it every other day. Battery health shows 91% so it is getting a bit older but even if I have to (oh no!) start charging it daily down the road that's no big deal.

So I'm ready to order my upgrade in 52 weeks 2 days lol
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
2,486
4,049
136
Apple has a killer trade in program. That is why I am upgrading. It will only cost me a few hundred bucks for the Pro Max.

Yes you save money but trade-ins work with older iPhones too so it is cheaper to upgrade less often. Not that there's anything wrong with upgrading yearly if that's what you want, but most of us just don't need/notice/use the incremental improvements smartphones make every year whether Apple, Samsung, or whatever.
 

eek2121

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2005
3,051
4,273
136
Yes you save money but trade-ins work with older iPhones too so it is cheaper to upgrade less often. Not that there's anything wrong with upgrading yearly if that's what you want, but most of us just don't need/notice/use the incremental improvements smartphones make every year whether Apple, Samsung, or whatever.

Not necessarily. That may be the case with the lower end models, but my wife's 2 year old iPhone was only worth $100 when trading in to the 12. Meanwhile my iPhone 11 Pro Max was worth more than $500. I don't recall the exact math, but when I did it at the time, upgrading both years came out narrowly ahead. This could have been a one time fluke, however. I don't care about the economics from it as long as it is affordable to me. I absolutely would not pay $800+ every year for a new phone, however.
 
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JasonLD

Senior member
Aug 22, 2017
486
447
136
I think Apple has been putting more resources into SoCs that would be on future Macs instead of iPhone SoCs. Since they have so much lead on Phone SoC, they can afford to sidestep for a year.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,005
6,450
136
At this point efficiency should be a primary focus. They could probably make a new A-series CPU that's 70% more powerful just be adding additional cores, but is there any point? Most users don't need what they already have, but better battery life due to lower power draw is always desirable.

Maybe there is more of a focus on the Mac chips right now and it's hard to fault Apple for prioritizing that way, but they can't sleep on core design too much because both Intel and AMD are pushing their designs forward and can provide stronger competition against Apple in the PC space than they're seeing in mobile.

The real question is whether or not we see the mobile device cores diverge from the PC product cores.
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
2,486
4,049
136
Not necessarily. That may be the case with the lower end models, but my wife's 2 year old iPhone was only worth $100 when trading in to the 12. Meanwhile my iPhone 11 Pro Max was worth more than $500. I don't recall the exact math, but when I did it at the time, upgrading both years came out narrowly ahead. This could have been a one time fluke, however. I don't care about the economics from it as long as it is affordable to me. I absolutely would not pay $800+ every year for a new phone, however.


Just checked and if I bought an iPhone 12 today (since iPhone 13 can't be ordered yet but I assume the trade in values will be the same on Friday) I'd get $790 trading in a 12 Pro Max, $500 trading in 11 Pro Max and $320 trading in an XS Max.

Since the Pro Max has been selling for $1100 the last few years that means it depreciates $310 in year one, $290 in year two, and $180 in year three.

So it costs you $310 plus sales tax on $1100 to upgrade every year - let's call it $380 since I'm at 6% sales tax. $600 plus tax to upgrade every other year - call it $670 or $335 per year. $780 plus tax to upgrade every third year, call it $850 or $283 per year.

I actually would have thought it would cost more to upgrade every year. The intangible this doesn't account for is that having a newer phone carries a bigger risk if you drop it and break the glass. I checked by answering as if I had an 12 Pro Max with a broken screen that is worth $790 otherwise and Apple won't even take it as a trade in - their page says they'll recycle it!

I checked Gazelle and it would be worth $178 (versus $435 in perfect condition) over a $600 hit from Apple's trade in value! Clearly getting it fixed for the $329 Apple charges would be a better deal, but still a $300 hit. iFixit charges $549 for a new display for the 12 Pro Max so DIY doesn't make sense unless you can get a display for less than they charge, but maybe some random mall kiosk can do the replacement for less than $329 though whether Apple would give full trade in value for a phone fixed by some rando I don't know.

Now while I've dropped my iPhones onto concrete a few times over the years, I have never broken a screen (knock on wood) just scuffed the corner/edge a bit so I don't worry about that too much even though I never use a case. But I'm always worried about it anyway the first few weeks I have a new phone - ever since I had my iPhone 5 replaced under warranty (the power button issue) and I was happy because I'd dropped it and got some scuff marks on it and I dropped the replacement not 20 minutes after getting it while exiting a cab lol! My heart sank since it landed face down, but luckily no damage.
 

eek2121

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2005
3,051
4,273
136
Just checked and if I bought an iPhone 12 today (since iPhone 13 can't be ordered yet but I assume the trade in values will be the same on Friday) I'd get $790 trading in a 12 Pro Max, $500 trading in 11 Pro Max and $320 trading in an XS Max.

Since the Pro Max has been selling for $1100 the last few years that means it depreciates $310 in year one, $290 in year two, and $180 in year three.

So it costs you $310 plus sales tax on $1100 to upgrade every year - let's call it $380 since I'm at 6% sales tax. $600 plus tax to upgrade every other year - call it $670 or $335 per year. $780 plus tax to upgrade every third year, call it $850 or $283 per year.

I actually would have thought it would cost more to upgrade every year. The intangible this doesn't account for is that having a newer phone carries a bigger risk if you drop it and break the glass. I checked by answering as if I had an 12 Pro Max with a broken screen that is worth $790 otherwise and Apple won't even take it as a trade in - their page says they'll recycle it!

I checked Gazelle and it would be worth $178 (versus $435 in perfect condition) over a $600 hit from Apple's trade in value! Clearly getting it fixed for the $329 Apple charges would be a better deal, but still a $300 hit. iFixit charges $549 for a new display for the 12 Pro Max so DIY doesn't make sense unless you can get a display for less than they charge, but maybe some random mall kiosk can do the replacement for less than $329 though whether Apple would give full trade in value for a phone fixed by some rando I don't know.

Now while I've dropped my iPhones onto concrete a few times over the years, I have never broken a screen (knock on wood) just scuffed the corner/edge a bit so I don't worry about that too much even though I never use a case. But I'm always worried about it anyway the first few weeks I have a new phone - ever since I had my iPhone 5 replaced under warranty (the power button issue) and I was happy because I'd dropped it and got some scuff marks on it and I dropped the replacement not 20 minutes after getting it while exiting a cab lol! My heart sank since it landed face down, but luckily no damage.
The newer phones supposedly have an extremely durable screen. The drop tests are astounding. I have dropped my 12 Pro Max on a hard concrete floor twice (it has a case) and it survived without a scratch.

My upgrade will cost me around $350 unless I upgrade the storage.

Geekbench Metal score is decently faster on the 5 core A15 than the A14.
Side note: Geekbench recently locked the json output behind a login.

EDIT: 300 mhz clockspeed increase.
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
2,486
4,049
136
So about 10% faster ST, 25% faster MT.

Which is basically solely from increased clock speed. I wonder if it is possible Apple simply used the same core from A14? Maybe they had their hands full with handling the extra complexity of the interconnect, snooping, etc. to handle multiple Jade-C chiplets for the higher end Macs and took a year off updating the core?

Though with the larger improvement in MT either the clock rate of the small cores increased by a lot more than 10% or it did an update?

Guess we'll have to see what they announce for new Macs and how that fits in with the complete lack of any IPC improvement in A15's big core.
 
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ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
It's pretty obvious that they're hitting a thermal limit. The potential changes in their design team isn't the problem. Process technology just can't keep up with the rate of improvements that they want to implement. The post-silicon world is coming faster than many want to believe so I can totally see Apple trying to prepare for this world by moving on to designing larger chips for bigger systems which confers many advantages ...

Mobile SoCs can't really take advantage of major packaging technology improvements and can't afford to implement more specialized logic either so they become a total dead end once transistor technology stops improving ...
 
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nxre

Member
Nov 19, 2020
60
103
66
So this increase in clockspeed doesnt seem to support the idea of a focus on efficiency.
Looking at the sub-scores, this indeed seems like the same core as A14, as the integer and fp scores are basically in the same range as the 3,2Ghz Firestorm in M1.
 
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Cardyak

Member
Sep 12, 2018
73
161
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Though with the larger improvement in MT either the clock rate of the small cores increased by a lot more than 10% or it did an update?

Guess we'll have to see what they announce for new Macs and how that fits in with the complete lack of any IPC improvement in A15's big core.

Indeed, there are some interesting results here. 10% ST improvement but 25% MT could imply a few things. Either the small cores have received a larger IPC increase than the big cores, or a larger clock speed increase, or the all core boost is higher and results in less downclocking during long active periods.
Even with no microarchitecture changes at all IPC will still improve slightly this generation due to the SLC cache doubling from 16MB -> 32 MB, the real question is will there be any other changes on top of this?

Really looking forward to the Anandtech review on this, hopefully Andrei can provide his usual insight into Perf, Perf/Clock, Perf/W etc.
 

Asterox

Golden Member
May 15, 2012
1,028
1,786
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Which is basically solely from increased clock speed. I wonder if it is possible Apple simply used the same core from A14? Maybe they had their hands full with handling the extra complexity of the interconnect, snooping, etc. to handle multiple Jade-C chiplets for the higher end Macs and took a year off updating the core?

Though with the larger improvement in MT either the clock rate of the small cores increased by a lot more than 10% or it did an update?

Guess we'll have to see what they announce for new Macs and how that fits in with the complete lack of any IPC improvement in A15's big core.

In short, this is obvious if the details are compared.


 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,835
5,452
136
Which is basically solely from increased clock speed. I wonder if it is possible Apple simply used the same core from A14? Maybe they had their hands full with handling the extra complexity of the interconnect, snooping, etc. to handle multiple Jade-C chiplets for the higher end Macs and took a year off updating the core?

I'm skeptical you will see the chiplets soon. The Macs that are coming out soon probably just have more cores, maybe you will also get frequency tweaks like the iPhone did.
 

eek2121

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2005
3,051
4,273
136
I'm skeptical you will see the chiplets soon. The Macs that are coming out soon probably just have more cores, maybe you will also get frequency tweaks like the iPhone did.

Call me a pessimist, but I don’t expect new Macs before next year. I have a hunch that Supply constraints are slowing things down. Hope I am wrong. My work machine needs an upgrade.
 

gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
2,489
3,381
136
Given those benchmarks, did Apple decide to give Qualcomm+Nuvia a chance to catch up?
Or perhaps this was designed as an efficiency generation, we shall see.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Can this chip go into a MacBook now? How wide is the memory bus?

I'm assuming that we get a new M-series chip for any of their computers since the M1 has 4 performance cores, whereas this apparently only has 2. Since it doesn't look like the cores themselves changed much, I don't think there's any real gains they'd get using this over an existing M1 chip.

I'm guessing that the memory bus is the same 64-bit duel channel arrangement that the A14 had.
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
2,486
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I'm skeptical you will see the chiplets soon. The Macs that are coming out soon probably just have more cores, maybe you will also get frequency tweaks like the iPhone did.

I think we will see the Jade-C "chiplet" in Macs soon (before the end of the year) but I agree that Macs that have more than one of them won't appear until next year. Macs using multiple Jade-C are going to take more time for testing and qualification. But you gotta have Jade-C first to be able to begin the QA on systems with multiple Jade-Cs, including presumably shipping some test systems under heavy NDA to major customers to shake out any bugs only customer workloads can run into. I've always thought the ARM Mac Pro would be a June 2022 announcement, as that fits with their two year commitment and allows for a big reveal at WWDC.

The latest rumors we've seen about TSMC N4 indicate it will enter mass production in Q4 this year, and Apple will use it for Macs. It is unclear whether N3 will be available in time for A16 / iPhone 14 a year from now, but if Apple is using N4 for the iPhone 14 then Jade-C and the new Macs will use A16 cores instead of A15. That "Q4" would have to mean "October" if Apple is going to be able to ship the new Macs in time for Christmas, which I'm sure is the plan but with component shortages even Apple's plans may need to be pushed back a bit.

That's another possible explanation for Apple recycling the A14 core in A15 - if they had to deliver the "A16" CPU/GPU cores nine months ahead of when they otherwise would have it wouldn't make sense to devote much in the way of resources to the A15 CPU cores.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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There's usually an Apple event in October that focuses on their new Mac lineup, so we'll probably see any new products announced there.
 
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