Apple A9X the new mobile SoC king

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ComplexEntity

Junior Member
Oct 18, 2013
14
0
0
The link that you give me is old and explains why the A7 SoC fell short, I don't see how it helps in proving my remark right or wrong.

A7 and A8x is the same architecture, A8x has a tiny IPC advantage as well as higher clock rate. That's enough to represent the 20% difference seen between the two.

But where's the extra-core? Do you need to tell me that a whole extra core makes absolutely no difference in performance while all the heavily multi-threaded tests show the exact opposite?

It's easy to pick and choose benchmarks to show a point. Typically the ones that do not account for as central things as extra cores are the ones of the worse to do just that (because they're easy not to be taken seriously).

Like I said any benchmark that shows less than 40% difference between CPUs of the same architecture yet different core count is suspect at best; in most cases it means that it's not a multi-threaded test.

As Futuremark pointed out, the limitation on A7 was due to its memory structure and OoO execution (under section How fast is the A7 chip? It depends.). Since A7/A8/A9 are from the the same uArch design, Apple may improved the shortfall on their design, but more or less the limitation will still be there. The same can also be said on Intel chips as well.

You are free to investigate the Bullet Engine. It is an open-sourced project and wildly been used in commercial applications. Just because one's distaste on certain test results (be it Physics, or GeekBench, etc) do not invalidate results or even dispute the credibility of the tests until proven something is at fault. As I stand my point, Intel chips are just more general-purposed than Ax series.
 
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Stef123

Junior Member
Sep 11, 2015
12
0
0
As I stand my point, Intel chips are just more general-purposed than Ax series.

On that I do not disagree, but it may be less of an issue than what many think. I'm running ARM Linux since the Exynos 5250 days, a chip which by today's standards falls short to almost everything, yet I would comfortably work on most of my tasks.

My machines were not speed demons, they acted more like low-end laptops but as times pass we get closer and closer to a high end experience.

My point is that on an average user's "eyes" the particularities of each architecture may be of less interest and the general "feel" they get may be more important to them.

If the new iPad Pro matches or surpasses core-m performance in many/most tasks then be sure it would be enough for its target audience.

I find much more "scandalous" the lack of productivity applications for ARM ISA, rather than its raw power. If we get more of that/them, I don't think people would think twice before buying a device arm-ed with an ARM chip...
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
I find much more "scandalous" the lack of productivity applications for ARM ISA, rather than its raw power. If we get more of that/them, I don't think people would think twice before buying a device arm-ed with an ARM chip...

There's plenty on the GNU/Linux side of things (Blender, OpenOffice/LibreOffice, GIMP, etc.) of things. Not sure about Windows Phone or iOS.
 

Stef123

Junior Member
Sep 11, 2015
12
0
0
There's plenty on the GNU/Linux side of things (Blender, OpenOffice/LibreOffice, GIMP, etc.) of things. Not sure about Windows Phone or iOS.

Obviously like I wrote in my post I'm a user of many of those since early 2012. My complaint was targeted towards software running on a mainstream OS (iOS, Android, Windows and Mac OS X) ... like I said not many productivity apps that run on ARM there...
 
Oct 6, 2014
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It's close enough.
If you try to run Linux on ARM you'd see just that. Phoronix showed that the weaker (cpu-wise) Terga X1 almost matches i3 performance (apart from some tests).

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia-tegra-x1&num=2

From your claims I think you have use Linux in ARM and X86 in low power devices. I have used Tegra K1, RPI, RPIv2, some iMX, UDOO quad, and a Minnowboard MAX. For day to day usage, I would prefer the Minnowboard MAX anytime. Perhaps is my perception (I don't do ray tracing in my embedded devices) but it feels a lot snappier that the ARM counterparts. The MBM has an E3825 (Silvermont, Dual core, 1.33GHz, no turbo).
 

Thala

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2014
1,355
653
136
Geekbench is crap for x86 vs ARM. If that represents real-world performance then Exynos 7420 matches the MT performance of a 15W Core i5 5200U and A9X will be faster than a 28W Core i7 Haswell-U.

From my experience Geekbench is a very good representation of the relative performance for various workloads. Personally i would remove the test from Geekbench, which tests HW accelerated loads like SHA, because that is skewing the results a bit towards weaker architectures.
On the other hand you can forget the Web based Javascript benchmarks...as they mostly show how optimized the Javascript engine is with respect to the architecture.
 
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Zodiark1593

Platinum Member
Oct 21, 2012
2,230
4
81
As Futuremark pointed out, the limitation on A7 was due to its memory structure and OoO execution (under section How fast is the A7 chip? It depends.). Since A7/A8/A9 are from the the same uArch design, Apple may improved the shortfall on their design, but more or less the limitation will still be there. The same can also be said on Intel chips as well.

You are free to investigate the Bullet Engine. It is an open-sourced project and wildly been used in commercial applications. Just because one's distaste on certain test results (be it Physics, or GeekBench, etc) do not invalidate results or even dispute the credibility of the tests until proven something is at fault. As I stand my point, Intel chips are just more general-purposed than Ax series.

I was having pretty similar thoughts actually. Apple designs both the cpu and software, so they may be able to make cpu design decisions that Intel certainly won't be able to get away with. If, indeed, Intel was threatened with the prospect of losing Apple as a customer, the Intel I know would at least put up a fight.
 

Thala

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2014
1,355
653
136
Apple designs both the cpu and software, so they may be able to make cpu design decisions that Intel certainly won't be able to get away with.

As for example?
 

Stef123

Junior Member
Sep 11, 2015
12
0
0
From your claims I think you have use Linux in ARM and X86 in low power devices. I have used Tegra K1, RPI, RPIv2, some iMX, UDOO quad, and a Minnowboard MAX. For day to day usage, I would prefer the Minnowboard MAX anytime. Perhaps is my perception (I don't do ray tracing in my embedded devices) but it feels a lot snappier that the ARM counterparts. The MBM has an E3825 (Silvermont, Dual core, 1.33GHz, no turbo).

Your observation is correct, Silvermont is faster than any and all of those SoCs (Tegra K1 is a closer match).

I mostly ran it on tablets (either in dual boot or chroot) and chromebooks which typically have higher end hardware than most embedded systems. I do own both Rasperry Pis though and I'll try to get my hands on Tegra X1 (nVidia Shield console) soon...
 
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ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,135
2,445
126
Are these "2X faster!" benchmarks from a reputable source yet, or is this just Apple marketing hype?

Apple is famous for cherry picking benchmarks that look the most favorable and using those in their presentation slide deck.
 

Khato

Golden Member
Jul 15, 2001
1,225
280
136
On the other hand you can forget the Web based Javascript benchmarks...as they mostly show how optimized the Javascript engine is with respect to the architecture.

Well, that does bring up an interesting question - shouldn't Apple be able to optimize the Javascript engine for their in-house designed processors to perfection? (aka, you get this binary for an A8, this one for A9, etc.) Compared to the x86 version which has how many different potential targets all using the same binary?

Put another way, do we actually know that the x86 advantage is due to a better optimized javascript engine? Or is that just an assumption used to dismiss unfavorable results?
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
This is why we need something like SPEC to show the CPUs real potential. Rather than who got the best software ecosystem.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Why do you guys rely so much on a cache friendly fp heavy benchmark doing tasks which are relevant to <1% of the user base when discussing everyday use? The experience we often see is either GPU dependent or GUI related with lots of integer code, difficult to predict pointer handling and virtual function calls (all that OOP GUI app code).
Well thats an AT tradition that stems back from the p3 days.
Fp, cache and later on single thread is what matters for real men.
Spec fp 2000 in a high tower dekstop.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,752
1,284
126
Are these "2X faster!" benchmarks from a reputable source yet, or is this just Apple marketing hype?

Apple is famous for cherry picking benchmarks that look the most favorable and using those in their presentation slide deck.

Actually, Apple's famous cherry picking was mostly back in the G4 days. They've been more believable during the recent iDevice years.

However, I think that's already been stated in this thread (or else the other A9X thread).
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
Android/IOS already tend to focus on FP16 instead of FP32.

No wonder nVidia is starting to talk a lot about FP16 with Pascal. Double the flops for free.
 
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Headcool

Junior Member
Sep 11, 2015
11
0
0
I don't understand why people keep referencing Geekbench scores. It is one of the worst benchmark out there.
For instance the DGEMM part (multicore) scores about 20-25GFlops on an i7-4770. A real DGEMM implementation scores 150-200GFlops on this CPU. Thats 6 to 10 times slower than it should be.

Don't use Geekbench unless you want to show the world your technical incompetence.

Another bad example is GFX-Bench. According to GFX-Bench Manhattan 1080p offscreen the 980 Ti is about 70% faster than the 390X. In reality across multiple games it is only 25% faster. In the GPU space this is a huge discrepancy. Normally biased games only give a bonus up to 10-20% compared to the average framerate across multiple games.
So GFX-Bench is heavenly biased and should not be used.

Web benchmarks are problematic too, because the introduce a second variable - the browser. When using web benchmarks one should run the benchmark in several browsers and publish only the best score. We want to know how fast a SoC is, not how slow some browsers are.

I personally think people overestimate the SoCs from Apple. Mainly because of Geekbench and GFXBench.
Many benchmarks show that is actually not the case, e.g. Kraken, 3DMark, Sunspider, WebXPRT, etc.
In this Benchmarks the Apple SoCs are placed like expected - At mucher lower positions than the Core M.

And everyone seems to forget one important thing - power consumption.
The ipad air used 10W sustained. There is no data for the ipad air 2 but you can expect it is about the same.
A Core M uses 6W sustained in the best configuration. That is 4W to power the screen and everything else. More than enough.
If the max power consumption increases with the iPad Pro, which is not that unlikely, because it is a much bigger device, we are way beyond of the power consumption of a maxed Core M.

It is very likely that the A9X contains a fourth core. Core M is only dual core. If the have about same MT performance, the much more important ST performance of the A9X will only be the halve of Core M. But actually I expect the Core M to have a better MT performance.

Lastly we should not forget that the A9X has a really big die and many more transistors than Core M, which means that the defect rate is also much higher. This leads to the assumption that the A9X is much more expensive to produce in comparison to the Core M.

All in all I don't think the A9X is any threat to Intel at all. It is likely that it has a higher power consumption, is more expensive to produce and has a much lower ST performance aswell as graphic performance if you take FP32 into account.

I also think Apple will now hit a wall with the A10X. The can't really add more cores because more than 4 are not used in 99% of time. The can't increase the frequency that much without increasing the power consumption drastically. The can't increase the memory bandwith because it is not the bottleneck now. The can't widen the execution engine, since that is already very wide. The can't add new instructions as they are tied to ARMv8.
With other words, the got allmost all low hanging fruits the could get. The fact that the increased the core count is a sign of that. The performance graph they showed, also displays that, if you interpolate.
 

thunng8

Member
Jan 8, 2013
153
61
101
And everyone seems to forget one important thing - power consumption.
The ipad air used 10W sustained. There is no data for the ipad air 2 but you can expect it is about the same.
A Core M uses 6W sustained in the best configuration. That is 4W to power the screen and everything else. More than enough.
If the max power consumption increases with the iPad Pro, which is not that unlikely, because it is a much bigger device, we are way beyond of the power consumption of a maxed Core M.

What are you talking about? Core M uses a LOT more power (maybe even double or more) than Apple's Ax chips especially when it is turbo boosting i.e. when running benchmarks.

Notebookcheck measured 29.3W max and 18.5W sustained for the macbook with Core M:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-12-Early-2015-1-1-GHz-Review.143178.0.html

And just by using the 2, I can definitely say the macbook gets a lot hotter. My ipad Air 2 never gets hot (only mildly warm) even when running 3d games for long periods. Can't say the same for the macbook. It gets uncomfortably hot where the CPU is.
 

thunng8

Member
Jan 8, 2013
153
61
101
Well, that does bring up an interesting question - shouldn't Apple be able to optimize the Javascript engine for their in-house designed processors to perfection? (aka, you get this binary for an A8, this one for A9, etc.) Compared to the x86 version which has how many different potential targets all using the same binary?

Put another way, do we actually know that the x86 advantage is due to a better optimized javascript engine? Or is that just an assumption used to dismiss unfavorable results?

Most likely. The only JavaScript engine (nitro) that iOS has is in Safari. Nitro lags behind v8 in Chrome greatly in speed when running same hardware on os x. As an example Octane is about 40% faster on chrome vs safari.
 

Thala

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2014
1,355
653
136
shouldn't Apple be able to optimize the Javascript engine for their in-house designed processors to perfection?

If they have the expertise and the focus they should be able to optimize. However current Java Script implementation in Safari is...well it is doing what it is supposed to do but not particularly fast.

Many benchmarks show that is actually not the case, e.g. Kraken, 3DMark, Sunspider, WebXPRT, etc. In this Benchmarks the Apple SoCs are placed like expected - At mucher lower positions than the Core M.

Let me summarize. You acknowledged that web benchmarks are misleading only to continue to quote Kraken, Sunspider and WebXPRT?

I don't understand why people keep referencing Geekbench scores. It is one of the worst benchmark out there.

Bold claim! Mind to enlighten us why this is the case based on your expertise and experience?
 

Thala

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2014
1,355
653
136
Fixed function hardware perhaps, reduced precision, or otherwise focusing primarily on areas of performance that benefits Apple's use case most. Just some possible examples.

They are pretty much bound to the AArch64 ISA which includes precision requirements for FPU and NEON.
And then of course we are talking about benchmarks, where the workload is chosen by a 3rd party and not by Apple and which typically are not calling into Apples libraries and OS. This holds at least as far as low level benchmarks like Geekbench or SPEC are concerned.
 

dahorns

Senior member
Sep 13, 2013
550
83
91
What are you talking about? Core M uses a LOT more power (maybe even double or more) than Apple's Ax chips especially when it is turbo boosting i.e. when running benchmarks.

Notebookcheck measured 29.3W max and 18.5W sustained for the macbook with Core M:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-12-Early-2015-1-1-GHz-Review.143178.0.html

And just by using the 2, I can definitely say the macbook gets a lot hotter. My ipad Air 2 never gets hot (only mildly warm) even when running 3d games for long periods. Can't say the same for the macbook. It gets uncomfortably hot where the CPU is.

I mean, you're also talking about a device with 2+ inches of a higher resolution screen, 6 additional GB of memory, a larger true ssd hard drive, oh and a load measurement that comes from a stress test not available on ios devices.

What you'd prefer for power measurement is to test both running the same workload.
 

Headcool

Junior Member
Sep 11, 2015
11
0
0
What are you talking about? Core M uses a LOT more power (maybe even double or more) than Apple's Ax chips especially when it is turbo boosting i.e. when running benchmarks.

Notebookcheck measured 29.3W max and 18.5W sustained for the macbook with Core M:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-12-Early-2015-1-1-GHz-Review.143178.0.html

And just by using the 2, I can definitely say the macbook gets a lot hotter. My ipad Air 2 never gets hot (only mildly warm) even when running 3d games for long periods. Can't say the same for the macbook. It gets uncomfortably hot where the CPU is.

Core M has a configurable TDP ranging from 3.5 to 6.0W. That means if the cTDP is set to 6.0, it can't draw more than 6.0W sustained.
Core M can draw more power in short timespans to achieve frequencies above base frequency, however every other SoC does that too.
But I'm talking about sustained load. Sustained load energy consumption is always limited by the TDP. Because the TDP defines the size of the cooling solution.

Temperature is of course correlated with the power consumption, but there are other factors aswell. If you take a Haswell CPU, delid it, use Liquid Metal Ultra, temperatures will drop 20ºC. Same power consumption.

If we compare the iPad Air 2 and the Macbook 12 temperature data from notebookcheck we will see that the difference is really small.
The max temp of the Macbook 12 is 49.4ºC with a room temperature of 23.2ºC. That is a delta of 26.2ºC.
The max temp of the iPad Air 2 is 42.8ºC with a room temperature of 21.1ºC. That is a delta of 21.7ºC.
So the Macbook 12 is about 4.5ºC hotter than the iPad Air 2. That is totally explainable by the usage of the bad TIM that Intel uses since Ivy Bridge and by the smaller die.
An interesting thing are the temperatures of the power supplies. The power supply of the iPad Air 2 gets 5.2ºC hotter than the power supply of the MacBook 12. Now I could make the assumption that iPad Air 2 uses more power than the MacBook 12, because its power suppy gets hotter. But I won't do that because that is the same bullshit you told me, just reversed.

Regarding to the temperature while gaming, desktop games tend to be far more stressing than mobiles games. The 3dMark Icestorm Extreme shows how bad the A8X would perform in desktop games that use single precision floats instead of half precision floats.
 

thunng8

Member
Jan 8, 2013
153
61
101
Core M has a configurable TDP ranging from 3.5 to 6.0W. That means if the cTDP is set to 6.0, it can't draw more than 6.0W sustained.
Core M can draw more power in short timespans to achieve frequencies above base frequency, however every other SoC does that too.
But I'm talking about sustained load. Sustained load energy consumption is always limited by the TDP. Because the TDP defines the size of the cooling solution.

Doesn't explained the sustained load of 18.5W from the Macbook.
 
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