Apple continues to eliminate the dGPU

[Anteaus]

Did you really think this comment out? It is the "base" model. So it's going to have the base components. Graphics artists, video post, photographers, do not buy the base model.

Businesses running office productivity and schools buy the base models. So large orders of the base model will be discounted up to 20%. Apple is keeping the BOM of the base as inexpensive as possible allowing them to sell and discount into markets that are typically low margin. Hard drives are inexpensive, so it makes sense Apple uses them. It also takes demand pressure off of the SSD makers allowing their prices to come down over time.

Their marketing structure is based on the attitude that their lowest models are "better" than the best stuff the competition has, therefore is worth a price point that is often at least 1/3 over comparable hardware. The point many of us are making is that Apple likes to sit on a high horse and talk about how they push quality over quantity, yet when they put components in a $1500 machine that would normally go in a $500 Dell it becomes a bit silly. By all means include a 5400 HDD for secondary storage, but it shouldn't displace what should be an 120-250GB SSD as the system drive.

I'm all for Apple making money and for making those stock prices boom, but as a company who enjoys huge profit margins across the board they could give a little to maintain that edge.

As to your comment, it doesn't really apply here. We are talking about end users, not volume purchasers. They could still offer an SSD in the consumer model and swap to HDD if that's what the volume purchaser wants in order to keep the price down. Additionally, SSD prices have already come down dramatically. A 120GB SSD today can be gotten for what that HDD would have cost them a couple years ago.

 

[ALIVE]

I don't own a single share of Apple stock nor do I work for the company. However, I take immense gratitude when I see a company like Apple deliver such great value to its customers while at the same time delivering great value to its stockholders.

even people that buy apple products say the apple base is a shit product
and it is

for the money they charge is a rip off
if they offered it half price
yes it was going to be great product and a value product
in the money it asks and what it gives its a piece of shit

 

[Arachnotronic]

even people that buy apple products say the apple base is a shit product
and it is

for the money they charge is a rip off
if they offered it half price
yes it was going to be great product and a value product
in the money it asks and what it gives its a piece of shit

I don't feel that way, nor does anybody that I know who has actually purchased Apple products.

 

[ALIVE]

I don't feel that way, nor does anybody that I know who has actually purchased Apple products.

well my fanatic hard core apple friends fell like that
he has not worked 1 day in pc in his life

and he consider it a rip off if i want to be polite

and for the price they ask it is not a good product period
for a much lower YES IT WILL BE A GREAT PRODUCT
but now with that price is crap

why netbooks failed??
because for the money they asked you could go to a normal laptop that will smoke them in performance and in experience.

as for poor people at work they work with what the companies give them to work
i went to a international dutch company that has branches all over europe and they had windons98 machine on pentiums with 8 mb ram

and yes the work was done but you can not tell it ideal or good value machines

apple is showing off as quality and performance
and thats why people pay the premium
to have the best
well that model is a piece of shit
yes their iphones are the best
their notebooks arre excellent
but the imacs sucks
plain and simple
give them credit where they deserver it complain where they deserve it

 

[ALIVE]

I don't feel that way, nor does anybody that I know who has actually purchased Apple products.

feeling is not an argument
i am right because i feel i am right
wow
long live the feminist logic
your freedom ends where my feelings starts

keep felling

 

[RussianSensation]

Unless you're planning to buy one, what difference does it make what GPU is in an iMac?

Just like it makes no difference that a $1500 computer has a 5400 rpm drive? How it has outdated Broadwell architecture instead of Skylake, how it has no USB 3.1, how it cannot be used under Target Display mode, how Apple removed the option of upgrading the RAM, while charging $200 to go from 8GB to 16GB of DDR3 (while 8GB DDR3 stick costs $45)

Going back to what I said earlier - having options is good for the consumer. You disagree with that statement?

I await your next rambling wall of text.

Ya, so just as expected from you - 0 tangible rebuttal. Sticking to the discussion, I'll make it as simple for you to understand as possible:

The 27" for the price is a much better Mac for the $300 upgrade price.

Walls of text that have logic and common sense to which you cannot provide any serious rebuttal with facts so all you have to say is "what difference does it make what GPU is in an iMac" to divert the attention away by focusing on whether or not I will ever buy an iMac? Calling my responses wall of text won't change that those walls of text have information with points actually backing them up.

Interestingly enough, when I bring up points on AT, you start attacking the length of my reply and ignoring that many people online are bringing out the same valid criticisms:

http://www.cultofmac.com/392578/is-apples-new-4k-imac-a-total-ripoff/

I guess if you are an Apple user through and through, there is no such thing as getting ripped off, right?

I don't own a single share of Apple stock nor do I work for the company. However, I take immense gratitude when I see a company like Apple deliver such great value to its customers .

When 27" 5K iMac came out, relative to the price of 5K 27" panels, it was a value offering. Today, I am going to strongly disagree with that value assessment regarding the 21.5" iMac:

It's easily possible to buy a laptop + a superior 4K monitor than the iMac 4K:

Part 1

$799
Intel Core i5-6300HQ 3.2GHz Quad Core Processor (6th Gen Skylake)
15.6" 1920x1080 FHD IPS LED-Backlit Display
256GB Solid State Drive
8GB (1x8GB) DDR3L (1600Mhz)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4GB GPU
Intel 3165AC WiFi + Bluetooth 4.0
6-Cell Battery
Windows 10 (64-Bit)

Part 2

Add 8GB DDR3L 1600mhz = $45

Part 3

Option 1: $998
Samsung UN55JU6500 55-Inch 4K Ultra HD Smart LED TV (2015 Model)*
* If this size is too large, there are 40-48 options but just showing what's possible for $1000.

Total with Option 1 = $1842

Option 2: $941
BenQ BL3201PH, 32" IPS LED 4K Monitor with 32-Inch LED-Lit Screen

Total with Option 2 = $1785

Option 3: $829
Philips 4065UC 40 Inch UHD Computer Monitor 3840x2160 Truevision MHL 4K UHD VA panel

Total with Option 3 = $1673

vs.

2015 iMac 4K
$1499
+ $200 256GB SSD
+ $200 8GB DDR3
= $1899

What value are we looking at? It's possible to get a a functional laptop and a far superior 4K monitor that can be reused over 10-20 years in the future with future laptops or PCs.

Do you realize the iMac doesn't even have Target Display Mode?

I'll even go one step further.

2015 MacBook Pro 13"

$1299
2.7GHz dual-core Intel Core i5
Turbo Boost up to 3.1GHz
8GB 1866MHz LPDDR3 memory
128GB PCIe-based flash storage1
Intel Iris Graphics 6100
Built-in battery (10 hours)2
Force Touch trackpad

Add $529

27" IPS 4K Ultra HD (3840 x 2160)
sRGB OVER 99%
Free Sync Technology
Pivot and Height Adjustable Stand
4-Screen Split

Since the argument was already made that GPU speed doesn't matter, we can safely assume that dual core i5 with a PCIe based SSD will blow the doors off an iMac for every day usage:

Total price of 13" MBP + 27" IPS 4K LG display = $1828

There are so many combinations of why the $1500 5400 rpm iMac 4K is a fail, including the very own base 27" 5K iMac model.

And of course my earlier statement that for $300 the 27" 5K iMac already annihilates any notion that the 4K iMac is a value offering. When a more expensive product in Apple's line actually offers superior value, that's the ultimate proof of how much of a failure from price/performance the 4K iMac is.

The continued erosion of the lower/medium end discrete GPUs doesn't point to a future world without dGPUs any more than the narrowing gap between phone and laptop CPU power points to a future world without laptop CPUs.

These platforms have both gradually climbed up power budgets and benefit from process technology improvements in a non-linear way, but eventually their advances will slow to the same rate and they'll stay significantly behind the alternatives that are allowed to use 10x the power. Even if this market becomes limited to 150+W SLI-ready GPUs reasonable demand will still be there for the foreseeable future.

Great post. If someone doesn't benefit from GPU acceleration, then it makes no difference if they are using an Intel 6200 or a 980Ti Tri-SLI. But to keep repeating the same non-sense how dGPUs are going to die any year now is crazy since GeForce serves as a foundation for Tesla/Quadro product lines for professional uses and there are plenty of PC gamers who do play videogames.

I think if Apple could replace Intel/AMD/NV with ARM SoCs and keep charging $1500-1800 for iMacs, they would. Slowly testing the market by removing performance-focused aspects while keeping prices high is a good litmus test for their long-term strategy of maximizing profits which could entail replacing expensive Intel CPUs with underpowered but dirt cheap ARM SoCs. If Apple can sell a Toyota Corolla for the price of a BMW M4, they will pounce on that in no time. $1500 iMac with integrated graphics and 5400 rpm drive and 8GB of RAM is a good starting point moving forward of testing just how responsive their customer base is to pay huge premiums for a shiny logo despite gimped features/performance. ^_^

Their marketing structure is based on the attitude that their lowest models are "better" than the best stuff the competition has, therefore is worth a price point that is often at least 1/3 over comparable hardware. The point many of us are making is that Apple likes to sit on a high horse and talk about how they push quality over quantity, yet when they put components in a $1500 machine that would normally go in a $500 Dell it becomes a bit silly. By all means include a 5400 HDD for secondary storage, but it shouldn't displace what should be an 120-250GB SSD as the system drive.

Great post. Not only that but their strategy contradicts their laptops where they continue to invest heavily into the fastest PCIe based SSDs.

How can the same company that sells $1500-2500 laptops with blazing fast Samsung 951 SSDs be selling a $1500-1800 iMacs with 5400 rpm hard drives, then to exacerbate the matter they charge ludicrous prices for RAM and SSD upgrades?

What's impossible to objectively reconcile is how specs matter for certain Apple products like A9/A9X SOC, huge advantage with external connection via Thunderbolt, FireWire in the past, first to successfully move 5K into the spotlight, incredibly fast PCIe 3.0 x4 SSDs in MBPs but then when Apple completely fails in other areas in specs (iMac 4K), specs suddenly don't matter since the are good enough for the intended user?

Time and time again Apple just keeps proving that marketing is what sells most of their products. Hope they marketing executives get huge bonuses because they are doing a stellar job.

 

[Rakehellion]

Going back to what I said earlier - having options is good for the consumer. You disagree with that statement?

Like I said, why do you care unless you're the consumer?

 

[ALIVE]

Like I said, why do you care unless you're the consumer?

as why we comment in any other topic
we like computers and we talk about them
if you do not want to talk about apple
why you enter to topic
and complain why we talk about it??'
there are so many others topic your can talk.

 

[Rakehellion]

feeling is not an argument

Which is exactly the same as the anecdotal evidence you gave.

 

[ALIVE]

Which is exactly the same as the anecdotal evidence you gave.

we are in a computer forum
and something that cost that much and offers that quality parts
how it can be consider good!?!?!?!?!?

we are supposed to check the market and now more even than people that work as pc repairing

if that does not speak by itself then you are in the wrong forum
some things are self evidence

 

[MrTeal]

we are in a computer forum
and something that cost that much and offers that quality parts
how it can be consider good!?!?!?!?!?

we are supposed to check the market and now more even than people that work as pc repairing

if that does not speak by itself then you are in the wrong forum
some things are self evidence

You said that even Apple fans think that their base products are shit.
He said he doesn't feel that way and that neither do Apple customers he knows.
You said feelings don't matter and that evidence is what counts, despite your argument being based on the anecdotal feelings of your friend.

 

[ALIVE]

You said that even Apple fans think that their base products are shit.
He said he doesn't feel that way and that neither do Apple customers he knows.
You said feelings don't matter and that evidence is what counts, despite your argument being based on the anecdotal feelings of your friend.

the reason that is a piece of shit is the price for the performance you get
and on that part my mac friends agree

the same people that defend the high cost of other apple products because of the quality of constructions and raw performance you get

my opinion was based on PRICE / PERFORMANCE
and i said that in a much lower price the product would be amazing
but at that price it is a RIP OFF

where i referred to emotion??
they referred to emotion and also i do not buy apple but my friend who buy said it was excellent
well i also do not buy apple but my friends say it is a RIP OFF

and also i said why buy that apple when you can buy a pc with less money with more perfomance!?!?!?

i also said that the good old times some jobs were done only with macs
photoshop illustrator quark was only for mac
now these programs have migrate on pc
so then you had no option as professional to buy mac

but now is different
all programms have migrated on pc and there are programs on pc you do not have it on apple mac os. so from software prospective you have less options with apple

when apple had the motorola cpu i was talking with my friend and they told me working photoshop on pc and mac is complete different thing
same software different experience
THE SAME PEOPLE when apple went to mac os10 and intel cpu
said that photoshop now feel worse than in power pc

so now with the intel cpu and macos 10 the experience of mac went lower to touch pc levels
still macos is better os than windows but its not what it used to be
and this comes from professionals that they make their living working on macs
1 photographer bought the new apple with macos 10 and sold it and kept using his old mac because it was better

and these people are apple fanatics they hear pc and they go sick
but they still tell things for what they are

so when exactly i used emotions????
and when i reply to someone that uses emotions you cherry pick some sentences from s short post to prove that i talk emotional
geee cheery pick more
APPLE IS NEVER WRONG
here cherry pick this

 

[Ranulf]

Like I said, why do you care unless you're the consumer?

Because Mac owners are often insufferable hipsters who won't listen to any reason or logic at all? They just preen about how great their Macs are.

Anyway, $1500 and a 1TB spinner only is typical and along with Apple's statement awhile back that they were making most of their machines non upgrade-able tells you where they are headed, further into boutique machines where branding is the major factor. See the Beats buyout too.

 

[Rakehellion]

Because Mac owners are often insufferable hipsters who won't listen to any reason or logic at all? They just preen about how great their Macs are.

Judging by this thread, it's just the opposite. A bunch of rabid Mac-bashers with no substantive evidence to go by.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Judging by this thread, it's just the opposite. A bunch of rabid Mac-bashers with no substantive evidence to go by.

I agree. It certainly does seem so. Personally I dont like Apple products to put it in a mild diplomatic way and I would never use any. But the elitism shown in this thread from a few people is really bad.

A Surface Pro 4 or Surface Book for example isn't exactly cheap either. But you also buy more than that. Despite you can find "better" products for half the price.

 

[jpiniero]

Should point out that nVidia is now 100% completely gone from Apple's products. The previous 21 inch (Sept 2013) model only had a dGPU (750M) on the upgraded model. Don't expect them back either, given the lawsuit.

 

[ALIVE]

I agree. It certainly does seem so. Personally I dont like Apple products to put it in a mild diplomatic way and I would never use any. But the elitism shown in this thread from a few people is really bad.

A Surface Pro 4 or Surface Book for example isn't exactly cheap either. But you also buy more than that. Despite you can find "better" products for half the price.

well as i also said for surface 4 i do not like it also i find it too expensive for what ti gives

and i said half kilo less weigh or more does not make it more portable or less

smaller screen does make it more portable but smaller screen well the smaller the screen the less value it has
and what was the replies there half kilo that makes such a huge difference lol

and we only say that the product fr the price is offered is a rip off
but the usual fanboys or blind people
talk about hashing lol
of course how good a product is is related to its price
if intel launched atom at 1000$ because why not it consumes less power
would that made atom a good product???

a product can be a success of a failure just for the price
and not apple offering is a rip off
and how is hate on apple??
do you see anyone complain about the more expensive lines???
did anyone said anything bad for the 27 mac???
its even more expensive but noone complained about it
what we complained is the rip off of the entry product
but people when they do not have arguments
just reply to something else
you have apple
you said nothing
you said do much i did not spent any time to read but you are wrong!!?!??!

apple sales a brand and for that you pay a premium like it or not we live with that its the same in cpus when intel ask a premium because it is intel and there is no really any other option to choose

but intel is a sacred cow
apple is even more sacred
thu shal not talk against apple
thus shal be written thus shall be done
lol

 

[Rakehellion]

Should point out that nVidia is now 100% completely gone from Apple's products. The previous 21 inch (Sept 2013) model only had a dGPU (750M) on the upgraded model. Don't expect them back either, given the lawsuit.

Yeah, I was wondering about that. They've gone back and forth between vendors for a while, with the iMacs and MacBook Pros from 2011 on 6000 series Radeons. And then then the 2013 Mac Pro was on some kind of FirePro. I wouldn't expect Nvidia to be gone for too long.

 

[Snafuh]

Because Mac owners are often insufferable hipsters who won't listen to any reason or logic at all? They just preen about how great their Macs are.

IBM is one of Apples biggest customer. They already use 130.000 Macs and buy almost 2000 more each week.
A certain demographic leans more towards Apple products but you can say the same about any OEM.
Razor owners are often insufferable gamers who won't listen to any reason or logic at all?
Apple builds quality hardware with good perfomance and a modern, simple design. Why hate people who buy it?
Typed this on a Lenovo laptop with my Android phone next to me BTW

 

[JDG1980]

At least one review (ArsTechnica) indicates that the iGPU in the 21" retina iMac is not good enough for anything but the most basic tasks.

Intel's HD 6200 is more than up to the task of driving the 4K iMac's screen at its native resolution. Dropped frames and choppiness begin to creep in once you start asking it to do more than that, though, whether you're driving the iMac's screen in the scaled-up 2560×1440 mode, connecting an external 4K display, or some combination of the two. Look at GFXBench's Onscreen scores to see how much it's struggling to draw the screen relative to other Retina and non-Retina Macs. My preferred way to use the iMac was to connect an external 4K monitor and set them both to a roomier 2304×1296 mode, which was usable but consistently dropped frames when opening up Mission Control or swiping between spaces.

It can't even do dual monitors without dropping frames. That's without getting into stuff like Photoshop, Final Cut Pro, and AutoCAD that need abundant GPU power for computations and rendering - let alone 3D games. And this is Intel's best iGPU, the Iris Pro 6200. Everything else is even worse.

The truth is that iGPUs are not even close to good enough yet for anything except single-monitor office work. Even discrete GPUs aren't anywhere near good enough; right now the best single GPUs top out at about 30 frames per second at 4K on top AAA titles. To get up to what could be considered "good enough" (no further need for improvement), they would need to crank out 8K @ 120 frames per second consistently. That means you'd need about 16 times as much rendering power as a GTX 980 Ti or Fury X. How long before that becomes feasible in an iGPU? Probably never. It may not even be physically possible.

 

[ALIVE]

dgpu how much tdp they draw??'
the cpu alone draws less that the dgpu
so you can imagine how much power is left for the igpu

with the design of today there is no power for the igpu
of in the end we will make a monster of 300w or somewhere there to cool off

splitting the power to 2 chips cpu and dgpu you can also have the ability to cool it easier
20w for cpu and 20 watt for dgpu is easier to cool
that 40w cpu+ igpu

well igpu for 4k content will have long way to go

 

[jpiniero]

You're obviously not going to be playing games at 4K on the iMac.

I wouldn't expect Nvidia to be gone for too long.

I don't, given the lawsuits. Apple is more likely to push the IGP further up the food chain, but it seems inevitable that Apple will at some point buy Radeon (and/or the IP) for pennies on the dollar. Makes sense to use their current products until then.

 

[JDG1980]

You're obviously not going to be playing games at 4K on the iMac.

Agreed, and if that was as far as it went, it wouldn't be a big deal. But there are going to be quite a few people who want to run apps like Photoshop, Lightroom, and/or Final Cut Pro on this system - especially since Apple put so much effort into refining the wide gamut LCD display (billed as supporting 99% of the DCI-P3 color space). And not being able to run a second monitor without dropping frames on the desktop is just sad.

 

[jpiniero]

Agreed, and if that was as far as it went, it wouldn't be a big deal. But there are going to be quite a few people who want to run apps like Photoshop, Lightroom, and/or Final Cut Pro on this system - especially since Apple put so much effort into refining the wide gamut LCD display (billed as supporting 99% of the DCI-P3 color space). And not being able to run a second monitor without dropping frames on the desktop is just sad.

There's always the 27" model, or the Trash Can if you think it's inadequate.

I imagine Apple is intending people to use only the iMac's screen; I actually didn't even know that the iMac could use a secondary monitor as well. Retina mode does put some pressure on the graphics processor, so I suppose it's not that surprising that 2x4k in retina mode would cause frame drops.

 

[Ranulf]

Apple builds quality hardware with good perfomance and a modern, simple design. Why hate people who buy it?
Typed this on a Lenovo laptop with my Android phone next to me BTW

I "hate" the ones who blindly support Apple when they produce overpriced products like this. That and the supporters who can't shut up about how wonderful Apple is and toss politics into it.

Most Razer users don't get political about their friggin choice of mouse.

Types this on a custom built PC but I own Dell, Lenovo laptops, a Mac mini and an ipod touch too. Whoopee. Oh, I forgot, toss some hate my way because I actually like my Blackberry Z10.