Apple Event 2016-10-27 -- New Macs finally

[sxr7171]

They make jet turbines out of aluminum, too, so what's your point?

We are not talking about racing cars or jet turbines. We are talking about laptops. Typically laptops don't use the highest grades of carbon fibre, or the highest grades of aluminum for that matter.


I'm glad you mentioned this. Carbon bikes are valued for their lightness, but they are not typically known for their resistance to impact, with real world designs. For the grades and designs of carbon fibre typically used for mass produced bicycles, they have a tendency for catastrophic failure upon significant impact. For this reason, while carbon fibre is really popular for road bikes, for downhill bikes, not so much.

For a metal, aluminum tends to be brittle, but it's less prone to cracking than carbon as implemented in bikes. With the same sort of stress, aluminum will often deform (yet still can be ridden), but carbon will just crack.

You can successfully design a mountain bike to use carbon, but you have to design around carbon's limitations. The problem with this is increasing weight vs the lightest carbon fibre designs, cost of materials, and just as importantly, the lack of experience by some designers. Do you really think that most laptops built with carbon fibre have the same design experience behind them as those who design carbon bike frames or racing car parts?

That's why it's not uncommon to see carbon fibre laptops with cracks and what not, some even with just regular use and no impacts.


Magnesium is used partially because it is generally cheaper than aluminum when you consider overall manufacturing costs. The material costs are not super high, and the machining costs etc. are not as high either. Aluminum material costs and production costs for the parts are generally more expensive, or sometimes about the same.

Both magnesium and aluminum are "premium" metals for designing laptops. The each have their pluses and minuses, but all things being equal, you're actually often saving money (lower production costs) by going with magnesium, which is one reason why companies choose magnesium over aluminum.

BTW, Apple has already been using magnesium for a long time. The old aluminum G4 PowerBooks weren't made from just aluminum. They were aluminum and magnesium. Even the polycarbonate iBooks had magnesium frames.

P.S. I love steel, but it's heavy. For phones I think steel is fine though, since I kind of like the extra weight actually, for a phone. For a laptop? Not so much. My next laptop is going to be a 2 lb MacBook. Would I buy a carbon fibre MacBook? Maybe, but if I did, I'd be sure to put a cover on it. With an aluminum MacBook, I probably won't (based on my experience with other aluminum Apple products). That alone would negate the weight advantage in my case.

Having had several Carbon fiber Thinkpads and a few MacBooks the Thinkpads really don't scratch at all. I've never used a case for any of them.

I just view them as workhorses. I guess starting with Thinkpads trained me to just use the things and not worry about cosmetic damage. The Apple machines do very well but they scratch easily so in hindsight it was the Apple machines that needed something to maintain the finish.

By the time I went with the MacBook they were going to be sofa queens anyway and they never left the house. It was actually how I justified the MacBook. They were not going to taken out or carried or used for any work purpose they were just browsing machines on the couch. If I wanted something to take out I would have gone with something else. That's also why they held up so well.

Carbon fiber can come in glossy and matte. These machines mostly go with matte. Secondly I think the material used on the Vaio is not Thinkpad grade. It flexed quite a lot and feel it was mostly plastic with a very thin woven Carbon fiber layer in there.

The Retina MacBook is the only MacBook I would consider. I think it's truly a very nice machine at a fair price. I do wish they made it 13.3" and kept the 2lbs weight. I would actually buy it. It's hard to go from 13.3" back to 12" once you've had it. So many under 2lbs 13.3" machines out there now. The only issue coming from a Mac is that the trackpad may make you tear your hair out until you get used to it.

 

[JAG87]

But I'm secretly happy that they will now discover the amazing world that has blossomed on the Windows side. They will get more value and performance just for taking a moment to look outside the box.

But they won't. No serious professional will even consider a Windows machine unless it is forced down their throats by their obtuse employer. MacOS or OSX, whatever you want to call it, is the de facto standard for anybody who is somewhat serious about their business and prioritizes reliability and efficiency. No professional has time to play games with Microsoft. Do I need to link you to the countless sources that demonstrate this?

http://www.recode.net/2016/10/20/13337652/mac-ibm-business-cheaper

"The company, which began letting workers choose Macs or PCs last year, says it has found PCs drive twice as many support calls as Macs and that IBMers are now “overwhelmingly” opting for Macs: 73 percent of IBM employees say they want their next computer to be a Mac."

http://arstechnica.com/information-...something-isnt-right-with-windows-10-testing/

"At precisely the time that Microsoft needs to be instilling confidence in its patching process by reassuring especially enterprise customers that the rolling releases and cumulative updates are nothing to fear, it is doing the opposite. Niggling issues around hotfixes are nothing new—you can always find one or two people complaining that the latest patch doesn't work properly—but the new approach threatens to turn those minor gripes into showstoppers, eroding trust in the way Windows is developed, tested, and deployed."

A serious professional on a budget will choose last year's Mac before they even bother with Windows. And that's why I told you that you probably shouldn't be in this section to begin with.

 

[ControlD]

But they won't. No serious professional will even consider a Windows machine unless it is forced down their throats by their obtuse employer. MacOS or OSX, whatever you want to call it, is the de facto standard for anybody who is somewhat serious about their business and prioritizes reliability and efficiency. No professional has time to play games with Microsoft.

I think a lot of that depends on what you mean by serious professional. Are we just talking about programmers here? Graphics artists? IT admins? I couldn't use a Mac for my job if I wanted to. I don't think I know anybody even remotely close to my field that could. Well, I suppose I could just run Windows on it, but in general a Mac still would be an odd fit at best. I bought a Mac for home mainly because I wanted to see what it was all about and I like trying new things. I have never done any work on it however.

Every industry has their tools I suppose. For the type of engineering work I do, it is a Windows world or nothing.

 

[Eug]

My workplace is Windows, but it's 32-bit Windows only, because the software we use is not all compatible on 64-bit Windows or on Macs. It drives me nuts, because even just surfing in Chrome can bring our machines to their knees, as they are limited to 4 GB.

It's funny though, a lot of us just bought our own Macs to use at work on our expense accounts, for the stuff that doesn't need that specific software.

 

[sxr7171]

I think a lot of that depends on what you mean by serious professional. Are we just talking about programmers here? Graphics artists? IT admins? I couldn't use a Mac for my job if I wanted to. I don't think I know anybody even remotely close to my field that could. Well, I suppose I could just run Windows on it, but in general a Mac still would be an odd fit at best. I bought a Mac for home mainly because I wanted to see what it was all about and I like trying new things. I have never done any work on it however.

Every industry has their tools I suppose. For the type of engineering work I do, it is a Windows world or nothing.

I thought it was hilarious to hear this "serious professional" talk. There are few business users for Macs relatively speaking.

Microsoft doesn't have a mobile presence to fall back on. They are really bringing it these days. Even courting the digital artists that were Mac holdouts. But people tend to move both ways price willing and that's sort of gone now. They want margins not marketshare. That much is clear.

Macbooks are great for browsing and consuming media. Well mostly the Retina MacBook is. I'm sure some industries use Macs for work but given a 9% total markeshare it's self evident it's not a large number of businesses.

The world can keep running without MacOS. Take away Windows and the world will grind to a halt.

In the business world the numbers would be even more skewed towards Windows. That number above includes consumers.

Generally most people can move between the two operating systems at will. I know quite a few who use Windows at work and Mac at home. But the home use is generally on an iMac. When it comes to portables unless Apple can compete with the portables out there businesses are always going to equip people with business class machines. I mostly see the MacBook Pro as a consumer grade machine with a "pro" label. Sort of like the PS4 Pro. An oxymoron right in the name.

Right now while IBM might save $500 over 4 years in support costs they'd have to drop $1000 up front to get it. I'm all for diversity in both consumer and business computers. So more power to them. But to suggest that right now Mac OS is a business force to be reckoned with would be gross hyperbole.

 

[Tweak155]

Once Apple gets anywhere close to the level of support needs that MS has as far as diverse work environments and companies, I'm sure their costs are going to go up as well. It's not a good analysis to make any real decision on.

 

[sxr7171]

Once Apple gets anywhere close to the level of support needs that MS has as far as diverse work environments and companies, I'm sure their costs are going to go up as well. It's not a good analysis to make any real decision on.

Leave alone the diversity of hardware. From $75 tablets to $10k quad sli gaming pcs.

 

[Eug]

The ultimate "dongle":

 

[sxr7171]

The ultimate "dongle":

That's pretty cool. I actually have some very good FireWire audio equipment around. I'm glad I can still potentially use it. The one I would like to see is an external GPU.

 

[Kazukian]

The ultimate "dongle":

I've had pretty bad experiences with 3rd party dongles and my rMB. IIRC, that one is expensive as heck. I just broke down and bought the Apple,stuff.

 

[Zaap]

I'm chuckling so hard that someone thinks Mac users on a site like this need to discover "the amazing world that has blossomed on the Windows side." LOL.

I'd wager I've owned more Windows machines and laptops than most. There are 4 Windows laptops and 6 PCs in my household now. My signature 'Mac' is a Hackintosh.

If by the amazing world that has blossomed on the Windows side" you mean much of the blatant turd, polished turd, and currently halfway decent but still showing a bit of turd underpinnings Windows has 'blossomed' into since 7... thats one of the reasons I prefer OSX. Even on x86 hardware if I can swing it.

I used to keep a Windows partition on my MBPs just incase.... but after a solid year of never needing to boot into it once, I took it off and feed up the space for the Mac side.

I run most of my must-have Windows apps and utils right in OSX using wine. I was once skeptical of it in Linux, but actually it works damn near perfect in OSX.

There's nothing I'd wager most here need to discover about windows. I use it on a few purpose built machines, and laptops, and my wife uses it...

But I can live without it and be 100% Mac -which I am most of the time- and never miss it. Hardware wise... complete agnostic.

 

[nvgpu]

https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/03/2016-macbook-pro-thunderbolt-compatibility-issues/

Wonder what else we'll find out as more people use the new MBPs.

 

[HiroThreading]

I thought it was hilarious to hear this "serious professional" talk. There are few business users for Macs relatively speaking.

Microsoft doesn't have a mobile presence to fall back on. They are really bringing it these days. Even courting the digital artists that were Mac holdouts. But people tend to move both ways price willing and that's sort of gone now. They want margins not marketshare. That much is clear.

Macbooks are great for browsing and consuming media. Well mostly the Retina MacBook is. I'm sure some industries use Macs for work but given a 9% total markeshare it's self evident it's not a large number of businesses.

The world can keep running without MacOS. Take away Windows and the world will grind to a halt.

In the business world the numbers would be even more skewed towards Windows. That number above includes consumers.

Generally most people can move between the two operating systems at will. I know quite a few who use Windows at work and Mac at home. But the home use is generally on an iMac. When it comes to portables unless Apple can compete with the portables out there businesses are always going to equip people with business class machines. I mostly see the MacBook Pro as a consumer grade machine with a "pro" label. Sort of like the PS4 Pro. An oxymoron right in the name.

Right now while IBM might save $500 over 4 years in support costs they'd have to drop $1000 up front to get it. I'm all for diversity in both consumer and business computers. So more power to them. But to suggest that right now Mac OS is a business force to be reckoned with would be gross hyperbole.

...are you done trying to peddle your vomit?

 

[Midwayman]

The ultimate "dongle":

Pretty cool. Too bad it has a wall wart. Does thunderbolt not supply enough power?

 

[lefenzy]

Pretty cool. Too bad it has a wall wart. Does thunderbolt not supply enough power?

I thought the idea is that this dock instead supplies the power to your macbook.

 

[Midwayman]

I thought the idea is that this dock instead supplies the power to your macbook.

Reading the site it seems to say it charges your USB stuff. Dunno. It be interesting to see what still works off battery power, etc.

 

[Kazukian]

Was just listening to The Vergecast, and about 1:30:03, Dieter Bohn says: "Apple won't publicly admit it, but they think the future of computing is the iPad Pro."

I agree, and I think it's one of the reasons they didn't worry a lot about the laptop refresh. They have a ton of user data that may support this position.

Also, I wonder how much input Anand had into this generation of laptops. (Or just what the heck Anand does nowadays )

 

[JAG87]

Was just listening to The Vergecast, and about 1:30:03, Dieter Bohn says: "Apple won't publicly admit it, but they think the future of computing is the iPad Pro."

I agree, and I think it's one of the reasons they didn't worry a lot about the laptop refresh. They have a ton of user data that may support this position.

Also, I wonder how much input Anand had into this generation of laptops. (Or just what the heck Anand does nowadays )

I agree with that, that's why my next primary device will most likely be an iPad pro with a keyboard and pencil. Don't think I will bother with another Macbook.

The iOS app ecosystem has grown insanely since the iPad came along as a mere tablet, that there are apps available for pretty much anything you need to do, both leisure and work. Besides that, with multitasking features like split screen and pip, iOS is becoming more and more like a completely capable operating system, and the pencil is in many ways a more capable input device than a cursor.

 

[Kazukian]

Apple cuts dongle prices till the end of the year:

• USB-C to traditional USB adapter from $19 to $9
• Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter from $49 to $29
• USB-C to Lightning cable (1 meter) from $25 to $19
• USB-C to Lightning cable (2 meters) from $35 to $29
• Multiport adapter with HDMI, USB, and USB-C from $69 to $49
• Multiport adapter with VGA, USB, and USB-C from $69 to $49

 

[Eug]

I agree with that, that's why my next primary device will most likely be an iPad pro with a keyboard and pencil. Don't think I will bother with another Macbook.

The iOS app ecosystem has grown insanely since the iPad came along as a mere tablet, that there are apps available for pretty much anything you need to do, both leisure and work. Besides that, with multitasking features like split screen and pip, iOS is becoming more and more like a completely capable operating system, and the pencil is in many ways a more capable input device than a cursor.

It's grown a lot. But it's not there yet. I don't actually need my laptop for too much at a conference next week in New Orleans, so I contemplated taking my iPad Air 2 with ThinkOutside foldable wireless full-size Bluetooth keyboard. However, in the end I've decided I still need to take my 13" MacBook Pro. The iPad is still too much of an internet and media consumption oriented device. The iPad Pro wouldn't be much better in this regard.

The 12" Retina MacBook would be perfect here, but alas, I don't have one yet.

 

[JAG87]

It's grown a lot. But it's not there yet. I don't actually need my laptop for too much at a conference next week in New Orleans, so I contemplated taking my iPad Air 2 with ThinkOutside foldable wireless full-size Bluetooth keyboard. However, in the end I've decided I still need to take my 13" MacBook Pro. The iPad is still too much of an internet and media consumption oriented device. The iPad Pro wouldn't be much better in this regard.

The 12" Retina MacBook would be perfect here, but alas, I don't have one yet.

Look again through the App Store... There are many pro-level application there are for iOS. From photo editing, to audio editing, to video editing. You name it. It's as much a creation device as it is a consumption one, but a lot of this stuff requires a precise input device, fingers won't cut it. That's what the pencil is for.

Downloading from the internet to local storage is about the only thing you can't do, but that is sort of resolved too now with cloud storage download managers.

 

[Eug]

Look again through the App Store... There are many pro-level application there are for iOS. From photo editing, to audio editing, to video editing. You name it. It's as much a creation device as it is a consumption one, but a lot of this stuff requires a precise input device, fingers won't cut it. That's what the pencil is for.

Downloading from the internet to local storage is about the only thing you can't do, but that is sort of resolved too now with cloud storage download managers.

This and the fact I can't plug in an encrypted USB drive (or even just a regular one easily) are complete deal killers.

 

[JAG87]

This and the fact I can't plug in an encrypted USB drive (or even just a regular one easily) are complete deal killers.

Haven't used a USB stick or HDD in several years. My only USB storage device is connected to the Airport for time machine backups and network storage (which again I seldom use). But I certainly understand the need in certain scenarios.

 

[quikah]

several reviews have indicated the keyboard is not much improved over the macbook. This is very concerning, the macbook keyboard is terrible.

Of course apple doesn't have these in store yet to try, lame.

 

[Commodus]

several reviews have indicated the keyboard is not much improved over the macbook. This is very concerning, the macbook keyboard is terrible.

Of course apple doesn't have these in store yet to try, lame.

The base 13-inch MBP is in stores right now... I've used it twice.

In my experience: it's tangibly better than the 12-inch MacBook's keyboard. You won't forget that the keys have less travel, but I could see myself writing a lot with the new MBP.