Apple is a thief, and poor

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Wonderful Pork

Golden Member
Jul 24, 2005
1,531
1
81
Depends on the features. If you cherry pick one feature that one company has and the other doesn't (or requires an outrageous upgrade fee), then you are correct. But if you look at the whole, you are far from the truth. Anubis and Wonderful Pork just posted two computers ($1350 for the XPS and $1799 for the MacBook Pro). The XPS wins on some specs (smaller lighter, better ports, longer battery life, better resolution) and the MacBook Pro wins on others (faster GPU, one notch faster CPU, larger hard drive). So they are roughly equivalent, but for $350 less you can get the XPS. And that doesn't even go into the fact that the MacBook Pro was very, very recently released and is the best value you can get from Apple at the moment.

I did post a XPS 13 and XPS 15, configured the same as compatible Retina Macbook Pros - and they were the exact same price. I made the processors, RAM, SSD, and screen the same (whatever was configurable as close as possible). While the base price of the XPS series was lower, similarly spec'd were literally the same price $1499 and $1999. And the battery of the XPS series was at least 25% smaller than the comparable Macbook, in Watt-hrs.

And, just for clarification, the 13" Retina Macbook Pro was updated March 2015 and 15" was updated May 2015, so over a year each, not "very, very recently" (well, depending on your timescale, I suppose).

Updates are expected in a couple weeks at WWDC 2016.

If you don't believe me, check here: MacRumors Buyer's Guide
 
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Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
12,182
35
91
If you cherry pick one feature that one company has and the other doesn't (or requires an outrageous upgrade fee), then you are correct.

Dude, you did exaclty this!
I haven't used all of the 4K laptops, so I cannot comment on the touchpad for you. The XPS 15 is a good computer for me. On the few bits of data you gave me as important:
* Touchpad = ? I don't know what your physical hand size or motion needs are.
* Resolution = Better (can be up to 60% more pixels)
* Battery life = Better (up to 17 hours vs up to 8 hours)
* Price = Lower (as low as $999 new vs $1999 for the MacBook Pro 15")

If you dislike that Touchpad, look at any other higher-end computer and keep trying.

There is nothing alike about these machines except they all say "Dell" on the side. And you used the qualifier "up to" just to hide your weasel language.
 

holden j caufield

Diamond Member
Dec 30, 1999
6,324
10
81
I think we can't ever get an agreement on something like this because I try to go by a pure price/performance, cost of ownership, ergonomics, and lastly looks (the performance and asthetics is really subjective).

It's really no different than buying cars, it's hard to place a true value. A few years ago, I bought a 1.5 year used Japanese luxury brand, all the bells and whistles for about 1/4 the price of my co workers new Audi. We both know ballpark what the other makes, his Audi most likely looks better to most, has a bit more HP, he has kids and I guess the parents have to present a certain look to other parents out in socal.

Realistically I think it's a terrible choice as the initial outlay, repair costs, registration, taxes, insurance costs are so much higher it makes no sense to me. Though he and his family probably feel the value of a new car that no one else previously owned, the asthetics and the brand status are worth the extra outlay.

It still doesn't make sense to me personally but I can't weigh what someone personally places in certain features.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
136
It's the little things with Apple hardware.

When you connect an iPhone headset, the in-line mic and volume controls work. That's cool.

Mac computers can charge an iPad through a USB port without a special driver / utility from your motherboard manufacturer.

MagSafe.

My mother's 2009 iMac has 5GHz capability standard. That's cool.

It works with an Apple TV Remote and you can pair remotes so they don't interfere. That's cool.

(I don't have a Mac computer for myself and rarely / infrequently get to touch one)

The way the Magic Mouse can work for swiping forward/backward in Safari. That's cool.
 
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SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
Apple sux balls at every price/performance point. Sure, their products are decent but you're going to pay a premium for the same basic performance for simple shit like word processing, web surfing, and email. You're just paying hundreds extra for a name. Fashion whores, unless you actually need it to do something like compile code faster or graphic design (which doesn't apply to 95% of the sheeple).
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
136
Apple sux balls at every price/performance point. Sure, their products are decent but you're going to pay a premium for the same basic performance for simple shit like word processing, web surfing, and email. You're just paying hundreds extra for a name. Fashion whores, unless you actually need it to do something like compile code faster or graphic design (which doesn't apply to 95% of the sheeple).

???

Full-featured iWork suite is free. Microsoft Office suite is not.

Probably a sizable majority of independent programmers are using Macs -- developing for iOS using XCode -- which is 100% free.

Windows' built-in freebies don't come close to Garage Band and iMovie.

You think this is the '90s?
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,552
12,865
136
It's the little things with Apple hardware.

Mac computers can charge an iPad through a USB port without a special driver / utility from your motherboard manufacturer.
I feel like maybe this is something Apple did purposefully...
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
136
I feel like maybe this is something Apple did purposefully...

Yes...obviously. If you're using an iPad, it needs more power than the 0.5a the USB standard was designed for. Apple computers and chargers signal to the device that they are capable of providing [x] amps safely, so the device knows it's safe to draw more than 0.5a.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,930
5,802
126
Depends on the features. If you cherry pick one feature that one company has and the other doesn't (or requires an outrageous upgrade fee), then you are correct. But if you look at the whole, you are far from the truth. Anubis and Wonderful Pork just posted two computers ($1350 for the XPS and $1799 for the MacBook Pro). The XPS wins on some specs (smaller lighter, better ports, longer battery life, better resolution) and the MacBook Pro wins on others (faster GPU, one notch faster CPU, larger hard drive). So they are roughly equivalent, but for $350 less you can get the XPS. And that doesn't even go into the fact that the MacBook Pro was very, very recently released and is the best value you can get from Apple at the moment.

what are you even talking about? you're comparing a laptop with a slower gpu, slower cpu, and a smaller hard drive, and you're surprised it's cheaper? you've lost me with whatever argument you are trying to make at this point.

i'm sure the macbook that has a slower cpu, slower gpu, and smaller hard drive is also cheaper than the higher end xps. what is your point?

also, smaller/lighter and "better ports" is all completely subjective. and owning 2 dell laptops previously, i'd have a very hard time to trust dell's battery life that they claim. i believe my batteries were "6 hour batteries" and i'd be lucky to get an hour out of them with normal usage, not even doing dev work. i ended up just having them plugged in all the time. the standby on them were also terrible. granted, this was like 3+ years ago, but i'd never buy a dell because of my previous history with them. i simply don't trust them battery wise.

and both laptops batteries couldn't even hold a charge after about a year at all, thankfully dell had a reminder built in to remind me to purchase a new one...

as i mentioned multiple times, and you're further proving it, people love to claim that similar spec'd apple hardware is overpriced compared to non-apple hardware, but they can never seem to find an actual comparison, and here you haven't found one either.
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,930
5,802
126
Apple sux balls at every price/performance point. Sure, their products are decent but you're going to pay a premium for the same basic performance for simple shit like word processing, web surfing, and email. You're just paying hundreds extra for a name. Fashion whores, unless you actually need it to do something like compile code faster or graphic design (which doesn't apply to 95% of the sheeple).

your dumbass has already been disproved by multiple posters in this thread. you should stick to being an idiot in the nba threads.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,552
12,865
136
Yes...obviously. If you're using an iPad, it needs more power than the 0.5a the USB standard was designed for. Apple computers and chargers signal to the device that they are capable of providing [x] amps safely, so the device knows it's safe to draw more than 0.5a.
Things I don't know since I have no interest in iPads (or any tablets, really)
 

holden j caufield

Diamond Member
Dec 30, 1999
6,324
10
81
No one can deny the low end apple stuff is so outrageously over priced, as is the surface 4. I have a disdain for ripoffs as both equally are bad (at least the surface 4 has a high res screen, touchscreen and pen). i5, 128gb ssd non upgradeable, 4gb of non upgradeable ram for $950

I've seen macbooks with non retina, i5, 128gb, 4gb non upgradeable ram for that same price point. I'm sorry but there is no price performance ratio there, pc or mac that's just silly to buy for 1k.

There are laptop's with upgradeable cpu, definitely upgradeable ram/HD for 1/3 or even less if you search ftwallet, tbargains sites.

This isn't anti apple hate. I have the same hate for the surface 4 which I feel our company wasted money on. But it's probably a better deal than a macbook(as you get a high res ips touch/pen. But this surface is so flimsy, it doesn't actually even have a hinge, easy to crack screen, not upgradeable ram/hd, not serviceable, battery probably glued in. I figure we get 2 years out of it which is $500 a year. Just rubs me wrong when the company is so wasteful., it affects their profitability, which then affects employees and their families. I've seen guys order a ton of laptops in Dec because they want to spend their budget, tax reasons etc and leave them in our storage untouched for a few years.
 
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Mar 11, 2004
23,177
5,641
146
No one can deny the low end apple stuff is so outrageously over priced, as is the surface 4. I have a disdain for ripoffs as both equally are bad (at least the surface 4 has a high res screen, touchscreen and pen). i5, 128gb ssd non upgradeable, 4gb of non upgradeable ram for $950

I've seen macbooks with non retina, i5, 128gb, 4gb non upgradeable ram for that same price point. I'm sorry but there is no price performance ratio there, pc or mac that's just silly to buy for 1k.

There are laptop's with upgradeable cpu, definitely upgradeable ram/HD for 1/3 or even less if you search ftwallet, tbargains sites.

This isn't anti apple hate. I have the same hate for the surface 4 which I feel our company wasted money on. But it's probably a better deal than a macbook(as you get a high res ips touch/pen. But this surface is so flimsy, it doesn't actually even have a hinge, easy to crack screen, not upgradeable ram/hd, not serviceable, battery probably glued in. I figure we get 2 years out of it which is $500 a year. Just rubs me wrong when the company is so wasteful., it affects their profitability, which then affects employees and their families. I've seen guys order a ton of laptops in Dec because they want to spend their budget, tax reasons etc and leave them in our storage untouched for a few years.

Surface screen is easy to crack? Aren't they using the latest gorilla glass?

I was baffled about the tech industry response to the Surface 4 and Book. They're nice, but the mostly overwhelmingly positive response was odd. Prices seemed like they had gone up quite a bit which barely seemed to get mentioned. I almost wonder if that's actually not behind it, that people need a high price to justify praising devices. Some of it seemed to just be delayed "oh, the Surface is actually successful, then it must be good!" response as well since most seemed to have written them off as a failure after the first gen fiasco.

The Dell also has Dell build quality, while Apple doesn't.

Actually Dell and HP have some Apple quality computers. In fact the HP Spectre X360 is basically out-Apple-ing Apple. Exceptional quality, good battery life, can even pony up for a matte black and copper (or maybe bronze) ish scheme (which looks very good), and on top of that it rotates around and works ok as a tablet (and it'll be getting an OLED display option sometime soon). And on top of that price wise is pretty damn solid as well, can find great condition refurbs with good specs for like half price fairly frequently.

Unless you're talking about stuff like bendable iPhones, or having to use bumpers because Apple couldn't be assed to test their fucking phone's ability to connect to cellular networks while being held in people's hands. Is that the Apple quality you're talking about? But, but they're using aircraft industry aluminum! And look now you can get it in rose gold!

And I actually kinda like Apple's stuff, but they're not doing anything that other companies aren't (that really matters, and other companies are doing equal if not more amount of things that Apple isn't) and you can absolutely get comparable quality stuff for similar (sometimes better) prices. There is no perfect device, be it phone, tablet, laptop, or desktop.

At this point the people acting like Apple is just better and the people acting like Apple is just mediocre at excessive prices are both wrong and equally annoying. Doubly so since technology is a constantly moving market so they're all going to be in flux (. The absolute dumbest thing is how companies have convinced consumers, whose only concern should be getting the device that best fits their needs/wants for the best price, into having discussions like this constantly.

Apple deserves credit for pushing computing companies to improve, but they're not revolutionary anymore and frankly have been quite stale in that they're essentially offering the same formula for their devices for years now. In most ways they've actually fallen right in line with the Dell's and HPs in that they're just waiting for the behind the scenes development to offer something new (stuff like OLED, SSDs).

Fact is, across the board we're getting better products than ever in computing, but we've also been seeing a year to year stagnation compared to the rapid pace it used to move at. Even the few really impressive technologies that crop up any more take years and years to really make a difference (OLED is taking forever to take over, VR is just in its infancy, and stuff like wearables are coming out so half-baked that its almost sinking the market).
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Surface screen is easy to crack? Aren't they using the latest gorilla glass?

I was baffled about the tech industry response to the Surface 4 and Book. They're nice, but the mostly overwhelmingly positive response was odd. Prices seemed like they had gone up quite a bit which barely seemed to get mentioned. I almost wonder if that's actually not behind it, that people need a high price to justify praising devices. Some of it seemed to just be delayed "oh, the Surface is actually successful, then it must be good!" response as well since most seemed to have written them off as a failure after the first gen fiasco.



Actually Dell and HP have some Apple quality computers. In fact the HP Spectre X360 is basically out-Apple-ing Apple. Exceptional quality, good battery life, can even pony up for a matte black and copper (or maybe bronze) ish scheme (which looks very good), and on top of that it rotates around and works ok as a tablet (and it'll be getting an OLED display option sometime soon). And on top of that price wise is pretty damn solid as well, can find great condition refurbs with good specs for like half price fairly frequently.

Unless you're talking about stuff like bendable iPhones, or having to use bumpers because Apple couldn't be assed to test their fucking phone's ability to connect to cellular networks while being held in people's hands. Is that the Apple quality you're talking about? But, but they're using aircraft industry aluminum! And look now you can get it in rose gold!

And I actually kinda like Apple's stuff, but they're not doing anything that other companies aren't (that really matters, and other companies are doing equal if not more amount of things that Apple isn't) and you can absolutely get comparable quality stuff for similar (sometimes better) prices. There is no perfect device, be it phone, tablet, laptop, or desktop.

At this point the people acting like Apple is just better and the people acting like Apple is just mediocre at excessive prices are both wrong and equally annoying. Doubly so since technology is a constantly moving market so they're all going to be in flux (. The absolute dumbest thing is how companies have convinced consumers, whose only concern should be getting the device that best fits their needs/wants for the best price, into having discussions like this constantly.

Apple deserves credit for pushing computing companies to improve, but they're not revolutionary anymore and frankly have been quite stale in that they're essentially offering the same formula for their devices for years now. In most ways they've actually fallen right in line with the Dell's and HPs in that they're just waiting for the behind the scenes development to offer something new (stuff like OLED, SSDs).

Fact is, across the board we're getting better products than ever in computing, but we've also been seeing a year to year stagnation compared to the rapid pace it used to move at. Even the few really impressive technologies that crop up any more take years and years to really make a difference (OLED is taking forever to take over, VR is just in its infancy, and stuff like wearables are coming out so half-baked that its almost sinking the market).

This is very true.

I love my late 2014 15" MacBook Pro (Retina). Fantastic device through and through.

But, Apple has become complacent in the laptop market. Their "MacBook" line (the 12" non-Air, non-Pro line) is a joke IMHO, I just don't understand its position in the market.

For a long time, Apple dominated the laptop market when it came to overall hardware and build quality. They've let other manufacturers catch up without reinvesting in additional change. If the 12" MacBook was supposed to be some kind of answer, it fell on deaf ears.

They need OLED, for sure, but to be fair, it has been slow to adopt for laptops, for good reason. And Apple has a good reason to remain on the sidelines for the tech thus far: the tech still needs maturity to be featured on a production-quality device. Apple has always prided itself on displays ready for production in creative endeavors... hell, the OS was designed around those factors in the first place.

I don't doubt that an upcoming refresh will feature Thunderbolt 3 with USB 3.1 TypeC ports, because I expect they'll adopt the latest Intel chipsets soon.

Apple is always slow to adopt the latest and greatest, but once they feel it is ready for maturity, they take it and run with it. They'll dominate the OLED laptop market in due time, I'm sure of it... unless Tim Cook's Apple has completely failed to follow the guidance of Jobs. Jobs was no godsend, but he saw the utility in ensuring there was an appeal to those who created artwork, be it audio or visual, in any capacity.

And that's another point: the OS badly needs some tinkering to remain relevant in the new world. Don't get me wrong, I have come to really love OS X and find it a terrific Unix-like OS, but, the new paradigm is touch (and in general a new approach to UI). OS X has remained the same in the general User Experience for the past decade, and I suspect OS X is what is holding back Apple from adopting some of the new paradigms for UX and UI. They need to dig deep into OS X and tinker with some core code to get it ready for touch and other things, there's no easy fix.

I hope they succeed, because Apple's prior success is what has driven the resurgence of high-quality Windows laptops. There were previously laptops with quality and durability as a major focus, but they had major trade offs. An IBM Thinkpad was a tank - but it was awfully inelegant and had terrible trackpads in comparison. And sorry, those nibs were never my thing. Neat, but worthless when compared to a proper large trackpad with great gesture support. Microsoft has been trying to adopt greater gesture support, and in Windows 10 it has come a long way, but it still relies upon drivers to get the job done well.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,716
417
126
tbqhwy.com
Surface screen is easy to crack? Aren't they using the latest gorilla glass?

I work with the glass every day, its still glass and it will still break, its not some magical material that's immune to damage, some people seem to think it is. its orders of magnitude stronger then other glasses, but at the end of the day its still glass
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
???

Full-featured iWork suite is free. Microsoft Office suite is not.

Probably a sizable majority of independent programmers are using Macs -- developing for iOS using XCode -- which is 100% free.

Windows' built-in freebies don't come close to Garage Band and iMovie.

You think this is the '90s?
Goddam you are a fanboy. MS Office came free with my $500 i7 lenovo. Just stop while you're ahead, embarrassing
 

Artdeco

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2015
2,682
1
0
I'm still confused by OP buying directly from Apple at full retail.

The only thing a cheap bastard (like me) buys directly from Apple is a refurb. Everything else I usually buy from a retailer, usually a NYC retailer like B&H

Or use a guide like the one Apple Insider keeps fairly up to date.

http://prices.appleinsider.com/#Current_Generation
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
your dumbass has already been disproved by multiple posters in this thread. you should stick to being an idiot in the nba threads.
Hey look, another one of my fans. Uncle Speed hurt your feelings talking bad about your little apple product? It'll be alright, trust me. What is the saying? "A fool and his money are soon parted (when they buy new apple products)".
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
No one can deny the low end apple stuff is so outrageously over priced, as is the surface 4. I have a disdain for ripoffs as both equally are bad (at least the surface 4 has a high res screen, touchscreen and pen). i5, 128gb ssd non upgradeable, 4gb of non upgradeable ram for $950

I've seen macbooks with non retina, i5, 128gb, 4gb non upgradeable ram for that same price point. I'm sorry but there is no price performance ratio there, pc or mac that's just silly to buy for 1k.

There are laptop's with upgradeable cpu, definitely upgradeable ram/HD for 1/3 or even less if you search ftwallet, tbargains sites.

This isn't anti apple hate. I have the same hate for the surface 4 which I feel our company wasted money on. But it's probably a better deal than a macbook(as you get a high res ips touch/pen. But this surface is so flimsy, it doesn't actually even have a hinge, easy to crack screen, not upgradeable ram/hd, not serviceable, battery probably glued in. I figure we get 2 years out of it which is $500 a year. Just rubs me wrong when the company is so wasteful., it affects their profitability, which then affects employees and their families. I've seen guys order a ton of laptops in Dec because they want to spend their budget, tax reasons etc and leave them in our storage untouched for a few years.
^ this guy gets it. Just buy a lenovo i7 for $500 something. More processing power than you'll ever need for email, word processing, and web surfing. Hey, it can even do hdmi out without buying a stupid extra fucking cable on amazon. Wait, you mean I can also easily upgrade from a 5400RPM Hard Drive to an SSD very easily, as well as RAM, by removing a panel on the back? And for half the price of a Macbook Air? And it has an i7 processor vs Macbook's i5?? And free MS Office?? No way, bro!?
 

holden j caufield

Diamond Member
Dec 30, 1999
6,324
10
81
I work with the glass every day, its still glass and it will still break, its not some magical material that's immune to damage, some people seem to think it is. its orders of magnitude stronger then other glasses, but at the end of the day its still glass

Not only is it glass, but it's a glass laptop that the user doesn't own and isn't repairable.

Imagine a laptop that someone gives to you, you don't have to pay for it, you don't have to pay for it if it breaks, it has no hinge and only a type cover to protect the screen. I've seen what people do to laptops that they don't have to pay for, it's not pretty.

We've only sent them out to the users recently so how long they survive is still to be seen. Also it's marketed as business friendly and it has no damn ethernet port. So you have to buy a dongle or dock that's not really a dock to get an ethernet port which is standard in every business laptop for the last 20+ years.
 
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Artdeco

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2015
2,682
1
0
Sooo, how may decades has this argument waged on?

Anyone ever changed their opinion? (I mean besides me, I went iOS and OSX some time ago.)
 

ControlD

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2005
5,440
44
91
Sooo, how may decades has this argument waged on?

Anyone ever changed their opinion? (I mean besides me, I went iOS and OSX some time ago.)

Probably not. I'm sort of in the middle so I don't have a strong opinion either way. I have two Mac laptops at home along side various other systems. I really can use any of them and they all get basically the same job done. I've just never come to like OSX enough to leave Linux and Windows completely. I do enjoy getting to use a little of everything though. Keeps things interesting.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
Goddam you are a fanboy. MS Office came free with my $500 i7 lenovo. Just stop while you're ahead, embarrassing

MS Office sure as hell didn't come free on my surface pro, or the 4 Dells I bought for my uncle's office.
 
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