Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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forums.anandtech.com

 

[A///]

The amazing UE5 announcement demo "Lumen in the land of Nanite" was created using Quixel assets and it is stellar.

I remember that video. I was convinced it was an elaborate joke using real footage.

 

[igor_kavinski]

God I sound like an Epic promoter 😂

Me too. Epic is EPIC!

 

[soresu]

I remember that video. I was convinced it was an elaborate joke using real footage.

I think this was a common response, they definitely set the tone - now we will see if it can be reproduced in a production game with lots of dynamic assets too which is usually the stumbling block of such visual advances.

Although I fear that IO/bandwidth and storage of larger HQ assets is likely to be the largest stumbling block to games that fully take advantage of UE5.

The <1TB base SSD of the PS5 case in point - fast it is, spacious it aint when those assets start to stack up.

 

[A///]

Excellent article on that: https://www.mosaic51.com/featured/reality-capture-epic-games-ultimate-simulation/

Oh okay I know what this is now. When Tigerlake came out they showed off Agisoft's Metashape using the leaning tower of pisa and how whatever AI it had cut down on computational time.

 

[A///]

I think this was a common response, they definitely set the tone - now we will see if it can be reproduced in a production game with lots of dynamic assets too which is usually the stumbling block of such visual advances.

Although I fear that IO/bandwidth and storage of larger HQ assets is likely to be the largest stumbling block to games that fully take advantage of UE5.

The <1TB base SSD of the PS5 case in point - fast it is, spacious it aint when those assets start to stack up.

I don't know how good the quality of these scans you speak of are but I can see them as you pointed out being used for film compositing where otherwise artists had to do it by hand gluing together images and now it's what a drag and drop situation?

 

[Eug]

Hmmm... I use an iPhone 12 Pro Max, but I was basically fine with my iPhone 7 Plus until I got the 12PM. My main complaint was the older camera. For speed it was no longer lightning fast, just "reasonably" fast with its A10 and 3 GB RAM, but that wasn't a primary issue for me, even as an AnandTech geek.

That 7 year old phone (from 2016) would be fine for many people even today, and it's still getting security updates too.

My wife upgraded her iPhone XR to a 14 Pro Max, and I ended up selling 7 Plus since an online reseller gave me a couple of hundred bux CAD for it. I'm keeping her old XR as a backup which will eventually be passed down to the kids. If it weren't for the mediocre camera, I would be fine using the XR as a daily driver, or even better, the larger XS Max (which has the same SoC but more RAM and better camera setup). The XR and XS Max came out 5 years ago in 2018 and are still getting the latest iOS feature updates.

tl;dr:

I use an iPhone 12 Pro Max, but I think the 7 year-old 7 Plus is still more than fine for a lot of people, and it's still getting security updates. Also, I'd personally be OK using a 5 year-old XS Max as my daily driver, and it's still getting iOS feature updates.

 

[soresu]

I don't know how good the quality of these scans you speak of are but I can see them as you pointed out being used for film compositing where otherwise artists had to do it by hand gluing together images and now it's what a drag and drop situation?

Yeah should be that pretty much.

It will likely revolutionise previsualisation of VFX on set of film productions if it hasn't already.

James Cameron was already using previs cameras on set while shootng Avatar 1, so I can imagine that the state of the art has already moved a ways forward now.

That being said full blown compositing still has its place - there's a lot of stuff that is simply too complicated to do in real time (at least for now), especially if you are doing a Neil Blomkampp and replacing live actors in a shot with CG actors which requires erasing them from the frame first to create a clean plate before you can add the CG back in.

Edit: Just remembered we are in the Apple thread 😅, best to take this elsewhere for further discussion.

You can also get a lot of visual control using node based compositors, though I could see the functionality of NUKE/fusion slowly merging into Unreal Engine too.

 

[A///]

Yeah should be that pretty much.

It will likely revolutionise previsualisation of VFX on set of film productions if it hasn't already.

James Cameron was already using previs cameras on set while shootng Avatar 1, so I can imagine that the state of the art has already moved a ways forward now.

That being said full blown compositing still has its place - there's a lot of stuff that is simply too complicated to do in real time (at least for now), especially if you are doing a Neil Blomkampp and replacing live actors in a shot with CG actors which requires erasing them from the frame first to create a clean plate before you can add the CG back in.

Edit: Just remembered we are in the Apple thread 😅, best to take this elsewhere for further discussion.

You can also get a lot of visual control using node based compositors, though I could see the functionality of NUKE/fusion slowly merging into Unreal Engine too.

I meant scene compositing not people, but I get that it may as well be the same due to compositing a vehicle that's not there and moving is roughly the same. I only brought it up because my neice's fiancee does it and showed me some sample scenes from an upcoming film I can't disclose but all I will say is I was left awestruck at how they can take a few photos and replace a grassy field with something very different with some physical set building added in.

 

[Doug S]

That's why I said it depends on the app or innate feature set of the phone. Apple goes through periods where they put out middle of the road apps and features and then do some great ones.

Call me a damn nerd but I jumped for joy when Apple included lidar tech in the iPhone beginning with the 12th gen model. That is a fing cool feature. The closest feature and I use the word feature lightly here was the android phone I'd bought to try out had a very basic DIY ar mode that ceased to be interesting soon after I began trying it out. The Lidar iPhones? Hours of immense pleasure.

Well sure when there are new hardware features that's a different thing, but older phones that lack LIDAR hardware will never be able to use those apps - that's what I was talking about as far as apps that owe their whole reason for existence to some new feature. For hardware features like this only recent phones have it so any AR support in iOS is useless to older ones.

I haven't really played around with AR at all but I probably should. Personally I would have been more excited if they had added FLIR support since I'm doing renovations on my house. Having my phone able to see air leaks etc. would be a nifty thing but it would never rise to the level of "hours of immense pleasure" for anyone

 

[A///]

I haven't really played around with AR at all but I probably should. Personally I would have been more excited if they had added FLIR support since I'm doing renovations on my house. Having my phone able to see air leaks etc. would be a nifty thing but it would never rise to the level of "hours of immense pleasure" for anyone

Good luck with that ever happening! Apple would have to pull some very big purse strings to accommodate such a feature. Unless they developed something similar. I don't know if it would be possible for them to skirt patents or pay up to develop their own tech based on existing patents. You have a very good idea here. I would try and get this to someone at Apple if I were you. I can see the thermal sensitivity being an issue but at the same time it's a very useful tool for construction and rescue endeavors.

 

[Doug S]

Good luck with that ever happening! Apple would have to pull some very big purse strings to accommodate such a feature. Unless they developed something similar. I don't know if it would be possible for them to skirt patents or pay up to develop their own tech based on existing patents. You have a very good idea here. I would try and get this to someone at Apple if I were you. I can see the thermal sensitivity being an issue but at the same time it's a very useful tool for construction and rescue endeavors.

I don't think there's anything particularly magical about FLIR's technology, we have had CCD type technology for many years FLIR's just responds to IR instead of visible light - which is what the Face ID sensor does so Apple already has that for at least one IR frequency.

iPhones have five (including FaceID) cameras now, can't be that expensive to add a sixth since it doesn't need to have 4K or even HD resolution. The problem is, what's the value proposition? As I said I could see using it for my renovations when I'm doing stuff like replacing my front & back doors, but that's kind of a one and done thing. If you use it to seal up air leaks around your windows and doors, it isn't like new air leaks will form and you need to do this every few months.

So I see this as more of a specialty thing that lends itself to off brand Androids, like the CAT phone that included FLIR. People who work in construction buy those phones for their durability, and having a FLIR in your pocket while you are framing and sheathing a house or installing windows and doors has obvious benefits, and would be something they'd use often not a one and done like a homeowner. It is becoming more and more common for framers to caulk between the studs and sheathing, between king studs and so on, so checking for air leaks after doing that instead waiting for an energy inspector to come along is the logical next step.

 

[A///]

I don't think there's anything particularly magical about FLIR's technology, we have had CCD type technology for many years FLIR's just responds to IR instead of visible light - which is what the Face ID sensor does so Apple already has that for at least one IR frequency.

iPhones have five (including FaceID) cameras now, can't be that expensive to add a sixth since it doesn't need to have 4K or even HD resolution. The problem is, what's the value proposition? As I said I could see using it for my renovations when I'm doing stuff like replacing my front & back doors, but that's kind of a one and done thing. If you use it to seal up air leaks around your windows and doors, it isn't like new air leaks will form and you need to do this every few months.

So I see this as more of a specialty thing that lends itself to off brand Androids, like the CAT phone that included FLIR. People who work in construction buy those phones for their durability, and having a FLIR in your pocket while you are framing and sheathing a house or installing windows and doors has obvious benefits, and would be something they'd use often not a one and done like a homeowner. It is becoming more and more common for framers to caulk between the studs and sheathing, between king studs and so on, so checking for air leaks after doing that instead waiting for an energy inspector to come along is the logical next step.

Flir is one of the most litigious companies I know of that will sue at the drop of a hair. Apple would sooner license their patents than do their own things. Yeah what you're describing is a new take on construction to minimize cool air and heat loss depending on the season making a home more airtight. There's a builder specialist out in Texas who specializes in this stuff and we discussed for months how to renovate my current home to make it more airtight and keep in cool air during the summer and hot air in during the winter all while minimising losses and recapturing water vapour to use as water storage for irrigation. I can't remember his name but it rhymes with a famous actresses name. Very nice guy and he barely charged me anything for the online and in person consultations since he was in the area by chance one weekend. Making simple changes or ammendments to your property where cold air rushes into a wall or the hot sun beating away on your house adds to your bills any way possible. with the wacky weather and raising costs in electricity and natural gas we need to think outside conventional means. Prior owner before selling had a top of the line heat pump installed. Saved my butt this year with sky high gas prices. I only had to run the furnace 3 weeks in total this past fall and winter when it dipped below freezing. There's a curve where they lose their efficiency and you're better off firing up some gas.

 

[Eug]

China Times is reporting what most here had guessed, that A17 and M3 this spring/summer will use TSMC’s N3E process. They also said that Qualcomm will be using N4 until 2024, as Apple bought out nearly all the N3 capacity.

領先群雄 蘋果跨入3奈米應用 - 財經要聞

手機市場今年市況最快要到下半年才有望開始復甦，使手機晶片大廠普遍將重兵押注在2024年，其中聯發科、高通（Qualcomm）皆在今年下半年推出的新品採用台積電4奈米製程，唯獨蘋果（Apple）單獨跨入3奈米世代，並在今

www.chinatimes.com

 

[A///]

China Times is reporting what most here had guessed, that A17 and M3 this spring/summer will use TSMC’s N3E process. They also said that Qualcomm will be using N4 until 2024, as Apple bought out nearly all the N3 capacity.

領先群雄 蘋果跨入3奈米應用 - 財經要聞

手機市場今年市況最快要到下半年才有望開始復甦，使手機晶片大廠普遍將重兵押注在2024年，其中聯發科、高通（Qualcomm）皆在今年下半年推出的新品採用台積電4奈米製程，唯獨蘋果（Apple）單獨跨入3奈米世代，並在今

www.chinatimes.com

Assuming your grasp of Mandarin is excellent is there a specific date range for the M3 or does it simply say this summer? I ask because it may mean apple is announcing new computers at wwdc or not, and if not waiting until their iphone event, but wwdc is usually the computer unveil time except with the mbp 7 years ago which was a September or October event.

 

[Eug]

Assuming your grasp of Mandarin is excellent is there a specific date range for the M3 or does it simply say this summer? I ask because it may mean apple is announcing new computers at wwdc or not, and if not waiting until their iphone event, but wwdc is usually the computer unveil time except with the mbp 7 years ago which was a September or October event.

Sorry, I just used automated translation. 🤪

"The industry pointed out that Apple has contracted almost all 3nm production capacity of TSMC this year, and it is expected to enter trial production at the end of the second quarter of this year. The third quarter will start to launch."

But no, WWDC is not the "usual" unveil time for Macs. Some Macs are released at WWDC, but it is by no means necessarily expected.

 

[A///]

Sorry, I just used automated translation. 🤪

The industry pointed out that Apple has contracted almost all 3nm production capacity of TSMC this year, and it is expected to enter trial production at the end of the second quarter of this year. The third quarter will start to launch. The goal is to rush the iPhone 15 new series of smartphone shipment kinetic energy in the second half of this year, becoming the world's three major mobile phone chip manufacturers. As soon as the manufacturer advanced to the 3nm process, the process was ahead of the group.

Third quarter production. It doesn't imply whether wwdc will show off new hardware on the computer side or not. I hope it does. I can't think of another apple event where they showed off a laptop or big hardware outside of May-june except the decade+ old macworld conference.

 

[Mopetar]

WWDC is usually going to focus on OS updates. There might be new Mac hardware, but more often than not it's not going to be a prominent piece of hardware and usually it's something other than a Mac.

If Apple has a shiny new Mac to show off it'll get its own event.

 

[Eug]

WWDC is usually going to focus on OS updates. There might be new Mac hardware, but more often than not it's not going to be a prominent piece of hardware and usually it's something other than a Mac.

If Apple has a shiny new Mac to show off it'll get its own event.

There are several new Macs coming soon. They may or may not come at WWDC, but I don't think it's accurate to suggest WWDC is not a major venue for Mac hardware releases. Yes, WWDC is mostly about software, but if they have Macs to release at that time, they often release them at WWDC.

One recent piece of info about this that is interesting (to me) is that all the leaked identifiers for the coming new Macs are Mac14,x. Why does that matter? Cuz AFAIK, all M1 series Macs are 13,x and all M2 series Macs so far are 14,x meaning that there may not be any M3 or M3 derivative chips released anytime soon, since M3 series Macs would likely be Mac15,x.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1649586243699654657

M1 came out November 2020, and M2 came out June 2022. If WWDC in June 2023 means more M2 and M2 Pro/Max/Ultra based Macs, that would suggest that Apple is still on a ~1.5 year release cycle for the M series chips. If true, that would mean that M3 wouldn't be out until late 2023 at the earliest, or possibly 2024. This corresponds to the rumours that M3 will be based on TSMC N3E. N3E is coming in September 2023 for A17 in the iPhones and likely later for the M3 series Macs.

China Times is reporting what most here had guessed, that A17 and M3 this spring/summer will use TSMC’s N3E process. They also said that Qualcomm will be using N4 until 2024, as Apple bought out nearly all the N3 capacity.

領先群雄 蘋果跨入3奈米應用 - 財經要聞

手機市場今年市況最快要到下半年才有望開始復甦，使手機晶片大廠普遍將重兵押注在2024年，其中聯發科、高通（Qualcomm）皆在今年下半年推出的新品採用台積電4奈米製程，唯獨蘋果（Apple）單獨跨入3奈米世代，並在今

www.chinatimes.com

 

[Doug S]

There are several new Macs coming soon. They may or may not come at WWDC, but I don't think it's accurate to suggest WWDC is not a major venue for Mac hardware releases. Yes, WWDC is mostly about software, but if they have Macs to release at that time, they often release them at WWDC.

One recent piece of info about this that is interesting (to me) is that all the leaked identifiers for the coming new Macs are Mac14,x. Why does that matter? Cuz AFAIK, all M1 series Macs are 13,x and all M2 series Macs so far are 14,x meaning that there may not be any M3 or M3 derivative chips released anytime soon, since M3 series Macs would likely be Mac15,x.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1649586243699654657

M1 came out November 2020, and M2 came out June 2022. If WWDC in June 2023 means more M2 and M2 Pro/Max/Ultra based Macs, that would suggest that Apple is still on a ~1.5 year release cycle for the M series chips. If true, that would mean that M3 wouldn't be out until late 2023 at the earliest, or possibly 2024. This corresponds to the rumours that M3 will be based on TSMC N3E. N3E is coming in September 2023 for A17 in the iPhones and likely later for the M3 series Macs.

Apple doesn't seem to have much consistency with their code numbers. The M1 Mac Mini was Macmini9,1 and the M2 was Mac14,3. The M1 iMac was iMac21,1/21,2. The M1 Macbook Pro was MacBookPro17,1 and M1 Pro MacBookPro18,1, the M2 were Mac14,x. None of it follows any logical scheme.

They're gonna call stuff whatever the heck they want and not care whether it makes sense

 

[A///]

Yeah I was only going off of recent memory of wwdc hardware releases. whatever the case may be we're in for some exciting news from apple and intel, don't laugh they deserve some praise here. zen 4 tr7000 too. There's also zen 5 arriving at the end or around June '24. all fun stuff to keep everyone distracted from the slow moving car crash near the end of 2024.

 

[Eug]

Apple doesn't seem to have much consistency with their code numbers. The M1 Mac Mini was Macmini9,1 and the M2 was Mac14,3. The M1 iMac was iMac21,1/21,2. The M1 Macbook Pro was MacBookPro17,1 and M1 Pro MacBookPro18,1, the M2 were Mac14,x. None of it follows any logical scheme.

They're gonna call stuff whatever the heck they want and not care whether it makes sense

Apple used to name all their Macs by the model, and then number. So, for many it years it was MacminiX,X and iMacX,X. However, with the M2 series, they've consolidated all the Macs under one naming scheme, so that all Macs are now MacX,X.

As you correctly pointed out, not all M1 series is 13,X. This new naming scheme began with M1 series Mac Studio, as MacStudio13,1 and MacStudio13,2. The prior M1 series machines were numbered based on their old model naming schemes. eg. MacBook Air 2020 Intel was MacBookAir9,1 but MacBook Air 2020 M1 was MacBookAir10,1. However, now all M2 series are Mac14,X, with the 2022 MacBook Air M2 named Mac14,2 for example.

Mac13,1 - Mac Studio M1 Max
Mac13,2 - Mac Studio M1 Ultra
Mac14,1 - ?
Mac14,2 - MacBook Air M2
Mac14,3 - Mac mini M2
Mac14,4 - ?
Mac14,5 - MacBook Pro M2 Max 14"
Mac14,6 - MacBook Pro M2 Max 16"
Mac14,7 - MacBook Pro M2 13"
Mac14,8 - ?
Mac14,9 - MacBook Pro M2 Pro 14"
Mac14,10 - MacBook Pro M2 Pro 16"
Mac14,11 - ?
Mac14,12 - Mac mini M2 Pro

Presumably the reason they've done this is so that even if such leaks still occur, at least now they can still hide which specific models are coming.

I am assuming the new Macs leaked are all M2 series based, because of their Mac14,X code names. If they were M3 series based, they'd likely be Mac15,X.

The new leaked machines are Mac14,8, Mac14,13, and Mac14,14, and are also rumoured to be desktops given their recommended FindMy status, so one might guess:

Mac14,8 - iMac M2
Mac14,13 - Mac Studio M2 Max
Mac14,14 - Mac Studio M2 Ultra

There is also the possibility of the Mac Pro, but somehow I'm thinking that will come at a different time.

 

[Doug S]

That makes sense, though if they were going to coalesce around a common Macxx,yy scheme for all Macs it would be nice if they'd skip Mac15 & Mac16 and call the A17 based cores Mac17 just to make things easier for us

We'll have to see what process they use, but based on past experience they will definitely use the same process for M3 and A17. So if A17 is N3E or some sort of Apple flavor of N3 that's timed to enter mass production based on A17's schedule then I agree we won't see those Macs released prior to iPhone 15. There's no reason for them to wait all the way until the end of the year though. Apple often has October announcements for new Macs, that would be the perfect time for M3 based Macs to arrive with the initial surge in A17 wafers winding down so they would be able to be available immediately.

 

[jpiniero]

China Times is reporting what most here had guessed, that A17 and M3 this spring/summer will use TSMC’s N3E process. They also said that Qualcomm will be using N4 until 2024, as Apple bought out nearly all the N3 capacity.

領先群雄 蘋果跨入3奈米應用 - 財經要聞

手機市場今年市況最快要到下半年才有望開始復甦，使手機晶片大廠普遍將重兵押注在2024年，其中聯發科、高通（Qualcomm）皆在今年下半年推出的新品採用台積電4奈米製程，唯獨蘋果（Apple）單獨跨入3奈米世代，並在今

www.chinatimes.com

TSMC just said in their financial report that N3E is starting volume production in the second half. There's no way the A17 can use it.

Even the original N3 they are saying that they won't recognize sizable revenue until Q3, which more likely means that whatever is using it isn't coming out until next year at the earliest. They do say it is fully utilized.

 

[A///]

that falls in line with the rumor I read last night about a mac pro not being shown at wwdc or in their october event. any possibility they can do a limited launch of the a17 on phones only?

 

[Eug]

TSMC just said in their financial report that N3E is starting volume production in the second half. There's no way the A17 can use it.

Even the original N3 they are saying that they won't recognize sizable revenue until Q3, which more likely means that whatever is using it isn't coming out until next year at the earliest. They do say it is fully utilized.

Do you have a summary of the financial report? I came across this article:

The Chips Are Down For TSMC, But Not For Long

Every three years or so, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co has a personal recession. Sometimes, this personal recession involves a decline in revenues

www.nextplatform.com

TSMC reiterated that it is ramping the 3N process this year and that the capacity it can bring to bear will be full utilized in 2023 and will contribute to revenues in the third quarter of this year and represent a mid-single digit percentage of wafer output in 2023, driven by the HPC and smartphone segments. The refined N3E process is set for volume production in the second half of this year, and the number of tapeouts for N3 and N3E are more than twice as high as the level set by the N5 5 nanometer process at the same point in their development cycles.

If that's the case, then A17 would use what, N4?

FWIW, it is expected that only the iPhone 15 Pro lines would use A17. The iPhone 15 non-Pro would use A16.

I read somewhere that the expected lag time from chip availability to iPhones on shelves would usually be roughly 2 months and Apple could delay initial iPhone deliveries until Q4 2023.