Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[repoman27]

There really isn't any point in using the original N3 since you could just use N4 instead. Which is cheaper/transistor and comparable quality to the original N3. The point of using N3E is that the quality is better.

Unless you're Apple and you realize that having access to the best available manufacturing process gives you a tremendous strategic advantage and is therefore worth paying for.

	N4 vs N5P	N3 vs N4	N4P vs N4	N3E vs N3
Logic Density	1.06x	1.6x	same	0.94x
SRAM Density	1.06x	0.99~1.13x	same	0.83~0.95x
Speed at Same Power	same	+5~10%	+6%	+5%
Power at Same Speed	same	-13~18%	-9%	-7%
Product Tape-out			H2'22
Risk Production	Q3'21	Q4'21		Q4'22
Volume Production	H1'22	H2'22 (Dec)	H1'23?	H2'23 (Sep~Oct)

 

[repoman27]

I think that's unlikely. Apple has always used the same process for Apple Silicon as was used for the iPhone SoC with the matching cores, even when a better one was available. And in this case N3E isn't really better - it is less dense especially for cache. It might be cheaper, but Apple prices things such that saving a few bucks per die is not a concern.

Slight niggle, but the M1 Pro/Max/Ultra were on N5P like the A15, whereas the M1 and A14 were on N5. But you're right in that M2 Pro/Max/Ultra were N5P rather than N4 despite being released after the A16 on N4 was already shipping in volume. I was kinda surprised they didn't take the optical shrink there. That might point to the fact that Apple probably intended to release those products earlier than they eventually did.

 

[Doug S]

Unless you're Apple and you realize that having access to the best available manufacturing process gives you a tremendous strategic advantage and is therefore worth paying for.

	N4 vs N5P	N3 vs N4	N4P vs N4	N3E vs N3
Logic Density	1.06x	1.6x	same	0.94x
SRAM Density	1.06x	0.99~1.13x	same	0.83~0.95x
Speed at Same Power	same	+5~10%	+6%	+5%
Power at Same Speed	same	-13~18%	-9%	-7%
Product Tape-out			H2'22
Risk Production	Q3'21	Q4'21		Q4'22
Volume Production	H1'22	H2'22 (Dec)	H1'23?	H2'23 (Sep~Oct)

And if N3E enters mass production in Sept/Oct chips won't be shipping until January at the earliest. So unless Apple won't be shipping M3 Macs until next spring it may not even be an option. I expect we will see something this fall, maybe the typical October announcement a month after the big iPhone event.

 

[smalM]

GB5 M2 Ultra

 

[smalM]

Apple is a cellphone maker, and that's pretty much it. Apple had a 7.2% market share of global PC shipments in Q1 2023. Apple had a 7.2% market share of global PC shipments in 2022. Apple had a 20.5% market share of phone sales so far in 2023.

25% market share of global PC revenues.
55% market share of global tablet revenues.
49% market share of global smart phone revenues.
Money drives the business.

 

[jpiniero]

Unless you're Apple and you realize that having access to the best available manufacturing process gives you a tremendous strategic advantage and is therefore worth paying for.

Which is why TSMC has had lots of trouble with getting customers to use N3 but plenty for N3E.

 

[Doug S]

Which is why TSMC has had lots of trouble with getting customers to use N3 but plenty for N3E.

They haven't had trouble getting customers to use N3, because they haven't been trying all that hard. They have pretty clearly been encouraging customers to go with N3E for an easier path to future iterations in the N3 family (i.e. they will be design compatible with N3E not N3)

Just look at the comparison - there are mid single digit improvements in power & performance in exchange for waiting a year - just like N5P vs N5 and N7P vs N7. The reason N3E isn't called N3P is because it gets worse in density, whereas typical P nodes have a small improvement there. But in exchange it will be significantly cheaper, since it reduces EUV layers and eliminates EUV double patterning. And THAT is the reason why customers are choosing N3E, because most don't have Apple's margins.

 

[oak8292]

With limited supply of EUV machines and the number of EUV machines and the differing requirements for N5, N3 and N3E there is going to be some bias from TSMC to keep people or push people onto processes that use fewer machines. The number of wafers and customers they can satisfy increases. This may even be part of the delay on N3. It seems like N5 ramped to higher volumes and that may have limited machines for N3. The advanced nodes appear to still be sold out and there is a ’rumor’ about a price hike for Jan 2024 on advanced nodes.

 

[Muadib]

Well, that's not true either, but my point was that Mercedes is still a serious car maker even though they only have 2.9% market share.

LOL that's what happens when I try to do two things at once. Of course they have something to do with auto, what I meant to say is they don't have full control when it comes to auto. Apple is trying to change that, however some car manufactures are very much against it. Here is the next level of Carplay.

All-New Apple CarPlay Launching This Year With These 5 New Features

At WWDC 2022 last June, Apple previewed the next generation of CarPlay, promising deeper integration with vehicle functions like A/C and FM radio,...

www.macrumors.com

 

[Doug S]

LOL that's what happens when I try to do two things at once. Of course they have something to do with auto, what I meant to say is they don't have full control when it comes to auto. Apple is trying to change that, however some car manufactures are very much against it. Here is the next level of Carplay.

All-New Apple CarPlay Launching This Year With These 5 New Features

At WWDC 2022 last June, Apple previewed the next generation of CarPlay, promising deeper integration with vehicle functions like A/C and FM radio,...

www.macrumors.com

I can't remember which automaker it was, but they recently stated they would no longer support Carplay or the Android equivalent in the future, wanting to leave their own software in full control. It will be interesting to see how that stance works out for them. I am sure I'm not alone in refusing to ever consider buying a car that doesn't fully support Carplay.

 

[A///]

It would be far easier to guess when an M3 Macbook Pro comes out than when we'll see Vision Pro 2! Since the first one isn't coming out until early next year it is probably safe to say it would be no sooner than midyear 2025.

We will probably see price cuts on the this one well before Vision Pro 2 comes out, if it sells well enough (with "well" determined by how it compares to Apple's internal projections) that they can get better pricing for components. Like how the original iPhone got a price cut. Its possible the second one might be introduced at a lower price than whatever the first one is selling for at the time, and the first one immediately discontinued.

It is interesting that it has "Pro" in the name, which may imply that a non-Pro version will come out down the road. I wonder what it would cut? It is hard to see what could be removed without compromising it...maybe the thing where people can see your "eyes" through it though I can't imagine that would save a lot of money. It could be that what we have now would be what a future Vision (non Pro) has and be introduced when the Pro line can be lighter and more like swim goggles or wraparound sunglasses than ski goggles?

Times a ticking mate, you know this by heart now.

emm yes now that you mention it I can't see what they'd reduce to bring out a non pro model. frame materials? cheaper per eye vision? no see through?I'm trying very hard to remmeber back to to the ipad mini and what people were saying about it then but that was 10 years ago and I can barely recall what I had for supper 2 nights ago.

 

[A///]

Well.. they do offer an iPhone subscription service... and a lot of iPhones are financed in general.

HaaS exists for biz and education, too. they have some of the best rates compared to the windoze based market.

 

[Muadib]

I can't remember which automaker it was, but they recently stated they would no longer support Carplay or the Android equivalent in the future, wanting to leave their own software in full control. It will be interesting to see how that stance works out for them. I am sure I'm not alone in refusing to ever consider buying a car that doesn't fully support Carplay.

GM said that they were dropping both Carplay and Android auto.

 

[soresu]

Well.. they do offer an iPhone subscription service... and a lot of iPhones are financed in general.

I had a look in all of the big mobile phone service providers recently when looking over prices for a new phone.

It seems like pay as you go plan options are minimal, relegated to only mid range or lower segment phones.

Everything above £500 at least is part of a 24 month plan it seems - the best you can get on Pay As You Go is a Pixel 6a at £399.

 

[Doug S]

GM said that they were dropping both Carplay and Android auto.

They better make a lot of additional ongoing revenue per sale, because I can't see how it won't cause their sales to take a significant hit. I suppose sales for fleet cars like to rental companies will be fine, but how many people springing for an Escalade would be OK with not being able to take calls or play music via their iPhone or Galaxy? Especially when the sales guy says "no worries, we have our software that can do that stuff with your phone if you install our GM app and pay $500 a year to enable the functionality!"

My Audi has the ability to do various features including stuff like remote access to open windows and stuff (but NOT start the car since that's illegal in Germany...) a "hey Audi" interface to tell it to do stuff, the obligatory Nav system that's useless in the age of smartphones, and so forth. Since it uses a SIM card for cellular access it is like $300 a year - I'm sure half of that is profit for them and the other half goes to the carrier. I didn't see the point, so I don't pay it. Same for XM Radio that it came with a free trial for (and they still send me stuff all the time trying to get me to subscribe)

Car companies just don't want to accept that people are relying on their phones more and more, and they don't need replicated and inferior technology in their cars. Yeah they wish they could get a yearly revenue stream for a nav system and streaming radio but that's just not going to happen, even if it was free I don't want to use their stuff I want to use my phone.

 

[soresu]

but how many people springing for an Escalade would be OK with not being able to take calls or play music via their iPhone or Galaxy?

Are you saying that they lack even bluetooth pairing to do so that way?

My dads car has nothing but a basic radio/music player and it can still handle BT fine.

Regardless of what platform they use no one would take out such basic functionality from a modern vehicle which is in no way tied to a specific app platform or OS.

If they are removing Android Auto and CarPlay it is to punt their own system in its place so that they can monetize it and control the OTA updates fully instead of secondhand.

 

[Ajay]

GM can do anything they want to. My current vehicle (Toyota Camry) is old and doesn’t support anything (to get BT - we would have needed to upgrade the steering wheel - WTH??). I’ll buy a GM vehicle when they are the last car company on earth. I’m 99% sure my next car will need to support CarPlay in order to elicit a purchase from me.

If they are removing Android Auto and CarPlay it is to punt their own system in its place so that they can monetize it and control the OTA updates fully instead of secondhand.

I’m not sure how they will monetize it, but they will have full control of an integrated system. I guess they think they will titillate customers with their own amazifying System.

 

[richardskrad]

M2 Ultra Chip Benchmark Results Reveal Impressive Performance Gains

The first benchmark results for Apple's new M2 Ultra chip have surfaced on Geekbench 6, providing a closer look at CPU performance improvements....

www.macrumors.com

M2 Ultra Geekbench 6

 

[Doug S]

Are you saying that they lack even bluetooth pairing to do so that way?

I have no idea, since their promise to remove Carplay & Android Auto support is for the future. I'm sure they will support making/taking calls but probably not playing music, because they want to help sell SiriusXM. It seems very unlikely they will support having your phone speak turn by turn directions via the car's speakers, as that would eliminate the value of any built in Nav system they were trying to sell.

If they want people to use their stuff and presumably pay for it via monthly/yearly fees after sale, it is in their interest to make using your smartphone as annoying as possible. If you can make a bluetooth connection and everything works like it does with Carplay other than the display everyone will continue using their phone and ignore whatever great software they think they will have as an alternative. So I think there are no guarantees of any support beyond making/taking phone calls and who knows if they will make you jump through hoops to get even that much (i.e. force you to install their app so their software can interface with your phone to send notifications etc.)

 

[Doug S]

M2 Ultra Chip Benchmark Results Reveal Impressive Performance Gains

The first benchmark results for Apple's new M2 Ultra chip have surfaced on Geekbench 6, providing a closer look at CPU performance improvements....

www.macrumors.com

M2 Ultra Geekbench 6

Thanks to the stupid GB 6.1 that arbitrarily raises scores thanks to different compilers, different SIMD support, changes in the way MT tests are done and who knows what else, we can't even properly compare with M1 Ultra scores since those were made using 6.0 unless someone runs GB 6.1 on an M1 Ultra.

 

[Eug]

GM can do anything they want to. My current vehicle (Toyota Camry) is old and doesn’t support anything (to get BT - we would have needed to upgrade the steering wheel - WTH??). I’ll buy a GM vehicle when they are the last car company on earth. I’m 99% sure my next car will need to support CarPlay in order to elicit a purchase from me.


I’m not sure how they will monetize it, but they will have full control of an integrated system. I guess they think they will titillate customers with their own amazifying System.

Apple for years refused to implement Apple CarPlay and Android Auto, even long after had GM already implemented them. Toyota tried revamping their entertainment software, but it invariably just sucked. And it was inconsistent from car to car too. Yes, you can connect via Bluetooth for calls and music, but overall the experience is just sub-par.

I have a 2012 Toyota Prius Plug-In with Bluetooth, a fancy automatic mechanism to move the screen to expose a hidden CD slot, and full-on navigation, and the entertainment system is the thing that bugs me the most about the car. The later models weren't much better... until around 2020 when Toyota finally introduced Apple CarPlay. I'm currently driving a rental Kia Forte with Apple CarPlay and it is just so much better. Totally different league. In fact, I'd often would rather drive a low end car with Apple CarPlay than a Lexus without it.

If Toyota/Lexus were to say they are moving away from CarPlay I would mostly likely just not buy another Toyota. And with GM moving away from CarPlay, GM is basically a non-starter for me.

It always floors me how such a well-respected car manufacturer seems completely incapable of creating good entertainment panel software. It reminds me of my Sony candy bar phones of the pre-smartphone era. The phones had great hardware, but the on-phone multimedia software and paired computer software were absolutely terrible.

Thanks to the stupid GB 6.1 that arbitrarily raises scores thanks to different compilers, different SIMD support, changes in the way MT tests are done and who knows what else, we can't even properly compare with M1 Ultra scores since those were made using 6.0 unless someone runs GB 6.1 on an M1 Ultra.

There will be a bazillion people running GB 6.1 on M1 Ultra. Don't worry.

 

[soresu]

(to get BT - we would have needed to upgrade the steering wheel - WTH??)

Now that truly is weird - perhaps it is supposed to house the antenna? 😅

 

[Eug]

Now that truly is weird - perhaps it is supposed to house the antenna? 😅

On a lot of cars, the Bluetooth models have controls for the multi-function / entertainment panel on the steering wheel. I suspect that may be the reason.

 

[Ajay]

On a lot of cars, the Bluetooth models have controls for the multi-function / entertainment panel on the steering wheel. I suspect that may be the reason.

Probably, but we had no idea that the BT support listed on the sticker required an upgraded steering wheel to actually work :-\ When my wife purchased an iPhone several years after we bought the car, I turned to the manual to figure out how to 'turn BT on' - oops, jokes on me! On the flip side, the Camry, despite an unusual spake of problems just after the warranty expired, has been a rock solid car.

 

[Eug]

After several months with the M1 Mac mini with 2 USB-C ports, 2 USB-A ports, and a Thunderbolt 4 / USB 4 hub, I can safely say my next headless Mac will likely be either the Mx Pro Mac mini or else the Mx Max Mac Studio.

I don't need the power of either of these, but I need/want those damn ports. OTOH, for my next Mac I'd only want 24 GB, but might be "forced" to get 32 GB with either of these "Pro" models. Damn you Apple marketing!!! The reason I say this is I occasionally encounter the annoying "your drive was unsafely ejected" message when the machine goes to sleep, but only with my external USB-C Samsung SSD connected through the Thunderbolt hub. I never get this with my other external USB-C Samsung SSD connected directly to the Mac.

This Plugable hub is based off the Intel Maple Ridge chipset, which was the only Thunderbolt 4 / USB 4 chipset available at the time, so it's not as if I should necessarily expect to get different behaviour with a different hub. In fact, the similar hubs out there aren't just similar. Most are basically exactly the same, since I believe they're mostly variations of the same standard Intel board layout. There are also some performance differences going through the hub.

Also, for some strange reason, Apple offers more monitor scaling options over USB-C than over HDMI, and my Huawei Mateview 28.2" monitor can't support my entire resolution anyway over HDMI since it's more than 4K. However, the M1 Mac mini can only support one USB-C monitor, so if I want to run two, I'm out of luck. I know the M2 Mac mini can support two USB-C monitors, but it only has two USB-C ports in the first place.

My Huawei is 3840x2560 (3:2) over USB-C, but I run scaled at 2304x1536. Over HDMI, I get 3840x2160 (16:9). I would run scaled at 2304x1296 (16:9), but that option is not available. The same is true with at least some other 4K HDMI monitors like LG for example.

Probably, but we had no idea that the BT support listed on the sticker required an upgraded steering wheel to actually work :-\ When my wife purchased an iPhone several years after we bought the car, I turned to the manual to figure out how to 'turn BT on' - oops, jokes on me! On the flip side, the Camry, despite an unusual spake of problems just after the warranty expired, has been a rock solid car.

I believe the multifunction panel is matched to the steering wheel in some cases. If you get a different multifunction panel, you get a different steering wheel. I don't know about your car, but for example in some models, the only way to access the voice controls was on the steering wheel. You can't actually access them through the multifunction panel itself.