Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[A///]

Lol speak for yourself, to me it's an emanation from Satan 😂

Oh? does thatchers ghost arrive each night at your bed side table nudging you then?

 

[eek2121]

Lol speak for yourself, to me it's an emanation from Satan 😂

Have to agree. I can’t stand it. There are some apps that make it tolerable.

Of course, KDE slaps both of them.

Given that GNOME is kinda macOS like, I wonder if this is a left handed vs. right handed type thing.

 

[ikjadoon]

So about a week until the A17 reveal. IPC-wise (let’s call it perf per clock in GB6), we should know roughly then when GB6 scores and clocks are inevitably leaked.

2+ years of iterating A14 perf, what now?

A. Less than 5% IPC uplift
B. 5% to 10% IPC uplift
C. 10% to 15% IPC uplift

This 2021 article comes to mind:

Apple CPU Gains Grind To A Halt And The Future Looks Dim As The Impact From The CPU Engineer Exodus To Nuvia And Rivos Starts To Bleed In

Apple's leading CPU team looks to be struggling as they have now delivered no CPU gains for the first generation ever. Apple likely had to delay their next core architecture due due to personnel overturn from the Nuvia exodus. Furthermore, with a new exodus surrounding Rivos, the future doesn't...

www.semianalysis.com

 

[richardskrad]

Apple is so far ahead of the competition on the phone/tablet side and they are still kings of performance per watt on laptops. They can’t compete on desktop, though. Apple lost a lot of their Avenger-level chip design talent after the release of the M1 but Apple’s chip division has built up so much good will that they can take extra time to build a new microarchitecture from the ground up while the competitions is catching up.

 

[poke01]

So about a week until the A17 reveal. IPC-wise (let’s call it perf per clock in GB6), we should know roughly then when GB6 scores and clocks are inevitably leaked.

2+ years of iterating A14 perf, what now?

A. Less than 5% IPC uplift
B. 5% to 10% IPC uplift
C. 10% to 15% IPC uplift

This 2021 article comes to mind:

Apple CPU Gains Grind To A Halt And The Future Looks Dim As The Impact From The CPU Engineer Exodus To Nuvia And Rivos Starts To Bleed In

Apple's leading CPU team looks to be struggling as they have now delivered no CPU gains for the first generation ever. Apple likely had to delay their next core architecture due due to personnel overturn from the Nuvia exodus. Furthermore, with a new exodus surrounding Rivos, the future doesn't...

www.semianalysis.com

Less than 5% IPC uplift

 

[Doug S]

I expect to see over 3000 in GB6, but they could get that with a fairly modest IPC improvement given what N3 should (in theory at least) give them in increased clock speed (unless they choose to use N3's benefits more towards power savings)

 

[A///]

I expect to see over 3000 in GB6, but they could get that with a fairly modest IPC improvement given what N3 should (in theory at least) give them in increased clock speed (unless they choose to use N3's benefits more towards power savings)

Doubt it. I think Apple will slowly up the ante on watts usage but the performance differential between the M line of microprocessors and traditiona x8664 will dissuade any individuals from complaining. Myself included. I've played with some M2 based mac book pros at the shoppes a few times now and love how instantaneous it is compared to some of the higher end i9 based mac book pros a few years ago on a brand new purchased model, for example. I need my dang m3 mac book pro, doug.

I really do hope Apple make an announcement during the next event. It'll be the best gift to myself I'll think of for the holidays.

 

[Henry swagger]

Apple is so far ahead of the competition on the phone/tablet side and they are still kings of performance per watt on laptops. They can’t compete on desktop, though. Apple lost a lot of their Avenger-level chip design talent after the release of the M1 but Apple’s chip division has built up so much good will that they can take extra time to build a new microarchitecture from the ground up while the competitions is catching up.

Apple has the most efficient big core in the industry.. with tsmc 3nm they.ll increase that lead

 

[igor_kavinski]

Apple has the most efficient big core in the industry.

Oh, so Meteor Lake will still lag behind M3? My condolences.

 

[A///]

Oh, so Meteor Lake will still lag behind M3? My condolences.

I think it's a given at this point that anything Intel will sit next to or just behind the competition, with the exception being Apple. Even if you remove the marketing sneakery and the accelerators apple uses the processors still outclass what Intel's got. Maybe Intel's Haifa location can break out a hail mary and come up with an incredible product. They've done it in the past. Still not confident on ditching ht/smt but it's still a weird rumour.

 

[trivik12]

Intel product that supposedly made to beat Apple is Lunar Lake. Its ground up design for U series CPU which is bread and butter of most laptops. I dont think we will hear anything about its design this year. May be 2024 Sept Intel Innovation event will bring out the details.

 

[A///]

Intel product that supposedly made to beat Apple is Lunar Lake. Its ground up design for U series CPU which is bread and butter of most laptops. I dont think we will hear anything about its design this year. May be 2024 Sept Intel Innovation event will bring out the details.

Only issue with this is Intel's perceived forecast of how the product will be and what they designed LNL to be around. It'll be a moon shot for Intel if they get close to it but they'd still have to be in that ulp envelope.

 

[Eug]

I've played with some M2 based mac book pros at the shoppes a few times now and love how instantaneous it is compared to some of the higher end i9 based mac book pros a few years ago on a brand new purchased model, for example. I need my dang m3 mac book pro, Doug.

My M1 Mac mini was instantaneous for all OS actions initially, but lately I've noticed some occasional pauses of a couple of seconds when I open the Finder. I wonder if it is due to compressed memory or swap, although I usually either have zero swap or maybe a few hundred MB of swap. Compressed memory is sometimes several GB. This is with fairly light business usage on a 16 GB / 1 TB machine, but happens after extended uptimes. It's always instantaneous after a reboot.

So, I think the OS still needs some work in this regard, cuz I don't think it's the hardware.

I really do hope Apple make an announcement during the next event. It'll be the best gift to myself I'll think of for the holidays.

Unlikely.

 

[A///]

So, I think the OS still needs some work in this regard, cuz I don't think it's the hardware.

Yes as I said macos has slid in terms of day one usability over the years. it's not windows bad but it might get there. the yearly hustle for new features seem to hurt reliability.

Unlikely.

yup going by what I read this morning it seems very unlikely. don't know when they'd announce it after that.

 

[mikegg]

You're sounding more and more ridiculous.

1) $900 is not $700.
2) Apple computers go on sale EVERY FRICKIN' YEAR on Black Friday/Cyber Monday. This is not new.
3) The list price is still $1000. $1000 is 43% more than $700.

Come back when you actually have something real to argue with.


Whatever you're smokin', I want some!

View attachment 84362

Yes, this isn't the Macbook SE. But it basically is in spirit - old MBA body, older SoC. It has been $750 on Amazon for weeks now as well as Costco.

Your post was 3 years ago. Inflation has been 18% since 2020. $750 today is roughly $615 in 2020 dollars.

Still think an inexpensive future Macbook SE is ridiculous?

As I explained years ago, Apple is perfectly fine with dipping into the "low-midrange market". Thet've done it with the iPhone SE, iPad, and Watch already. Yes, they'll still sell a $5,000 maxed out MBP but don't be surprised if Apple officially releases a $750 - $799 Macbook SE in the near future using the old MBA body and maybe M2 SoC when M3 is out.

While I do not believe in Digitimes reports, where there is smoke, there is fire.

Apple to Launch 'Low-Cost' MacBook Series Next Year to Rival Chromebooks

Apple is developing a low-cost MacBook series to compete with Chromebook models in the education sector that could be launched as early as the second...

www.macrumors.com

I've been hypothesizing a Macbook SE since 2020. What do you think? @Eug

 

[eek2121]

All they really need to do for such a product is sell them with the A16 instead of the M1. This also means a cheaper cooling solution. Also add a cheaper screen (60hz), 256gb storage, and 6-8gb RAM (the iPhone has 6gb).

The funny thing is they could actually have higher margins by cutting costs more than MSRP.

At any rate, I can’t wait to get some details on the new iPhone. I am planning to upgrade if they do add USB-C, but I hope the new SoC brings some improvements as well. The iPhone 14 Pro Max already brings decent desktop class performance (GB5 scores are 1900/5490), but it will be nice to have the improved efficiency.

Key things I am hoping for are better battery life, more RAM, USB-C, and improved camera quality.

 

[Eug]

While I do not believe in Digitimes reports, where there is smoke, there is fire.

Apple to Launch 'Low-Cost' MacBook Series Next Year to Rival Chromebooks

Apple is developing a low-cost MacBook series to compete with Chromebook models in the education sector that could be launched as early as the second...

www.macrumors.com

I've been hypothesizing a Macbook SE since 2020. What do you think? @Eug

For many, many years, I predicted Apple would release a 11.6" to 12" Mac laptop. Nobody would believe me. Well, Apple did end up releasing the 12" MacBook, but it certainly wasn't cheap.

My 2017 12" MacBook will be declared vintage in a few months. I'd be hopeful to see another small MacBook, but I'm not optimistic after all this time. However, if it did get released, I'd be surprised if it was $699 retail. I'd guess it would be a replacement for the $999 M1 MacBook Air ($899 edu), or possibly $100 cheaper.

All they really need to do for such a product is sell them with the A16 instead of the M1. This also means a cheaper cooling solution. Also add a cheaper screen (60hz), 256gb storage, and 6-8gb RAM (the iPhone has 6gb).

My prediction for Apple Silicon was that the cheapest Mac laptop would utilize A14. I was wrong. At this point I don't think they'd go backwards. However, if they were to sell lower end Mac, it's possible they could use an older M series chip in a newer machine.

I also don't think they'd go back to a non-Retina screen, and they're still spec'ing 60 Hz plus 256 GB / 8 GB right now. As for cooling, there is no cooling at all in the MacBook Air, unless you call a small flat metal shield cooling.

 

[mikegg]

For many, many years, I predicted Apple would release a 11.6" to 12" Mac laptop. Nobody would believe me. Well, Apple did end up releasing the 12" MacBook, but it certainly wasn't cheap.

My 2017 12" MacBook will be declared vintage in a few months. I'd be hopeful to see another small MacBook, but I'm not optimistic after all this time. However, if it did get released, I'd be surprised if it was $699 retail. I'd guess it would be a replacement for the $999 M1 MacBook Air ($899 edu), or possibly $100 cheaper.

$699 in 2020 (my original speculation) money is $816 in 2023. So if it releases in 2024, it'd probably be something like $850 to round the numbers and a few more percentages of inflation.

That would confirm my original speculation.

I didn't see you replying to my post in August 2023. But Amazon has been selling the M1 Air for $750 for weeks/months now. It seems like a permanent price. If so, $750 today is actually $635.69 in 2020.

I was ridiculed here for suggesting a $700 - $750 Macbook in 2020. But if anyone here had done basic math, you'd seen that a transition to Apple Silicon gave Apple a much higher gross margin on Macs, which would eventually allow them to sell an inexpensive Macbook SE. Or that if you listen into any Apple earnings calls, you'd know that Apple in 2020s wants to capture market share just as much as selling highend products. Apple wants marketshare to sell their services.

 

[Eug]

$699 in 2020 (my original speculation) money is $816 in 2023. So if it releases in 2024, it'd probably be something like $850 to round the numbers and a few more percentages of inflation.

That would confirm my original speculation.

I didn't see you replying to my post in August 2023. But Amazon has been selling the M1 Air for $750 for weeks/months now. It seems like a permanent price. If so, $750 today is actually $635.69 in 2020.

I was ridiculed here for suggesting a $700 - $750 Macbook in 2020. But if anyone here had done basic math, you'd seen that a transition to Apple Silicon gave Apple a much higher gross margin on Macs, which would eventually allow them to sell an inexpensive Macbook SE. Or that if you listen into any Apple earnings calls, you'd know that Apple in 2020s wants to capture market share just as much as selling highend products. Apple wants marketshare to sell their services.

As some of us originally said years ago, sale prices don't count. Sale prices on Apple products at Amazon and other retailers have existed for eons. We're talking consumer retail (and consumer edu) pricing here.

Also, using inflation calculations to justify your 2020 argument three years later in 2023 is just a cheat.

 

[Doug S]

All they really need to do for such a product is sell them with the A16 instead of the M1. This also means a cheaper cooling solution. Also add a cheaper screen (60hz), 256gb storage, and 6-8gb RAM (the iPhone has 6gb).

The funny thing is they could actually have higher margins by cutting costs more than MSRP.

At any rate, I can’t wait to get some details on the new iPhone. I am planning to upgrade if they do add USB-C, but I hope the new SoC brings some improvements as well. The iPhone 14 Pro Max already brings decent desktop class performance (GB5 scores are 1900/5490), but it will be nice to have the improved efficiency.

Key things I am hoping for are better battery life, more RAM, USB-C, and improved camera quality.

M1 and A16 isn't all that different in cost, given that the M1 uses cheaper LPDDR4X. But if Apple is making a stripped down Mac to compete with Chromebooks I suppose every dollar counts. If you look at iPhone SE's price point and the fact a new version is due maybe they'd leverage the SE's platform for this stripped down Mac, so they'd be identical inside. The only thing they need to change is leaving out the cellular chip, then instead of putting it in a phone case you put it in a laptop case with a full HD display which is good enough for classroom use and you're done. I would be very curious to see the teardown and see if that's the case if they do use an A-series SoC.

The question I would have is would this be generally available or would Apple only sell it direct to schools? I'm still skeptical about the whole "Macbook SE" thing cannibalizing sales of the Air. Sure it increases Mac market share and installed base, but there's no way Apple makes as much off a stripped down laptop as they do the Air. The same is true with the iPhone SE, of course, but Apple makes money after sale via the App Store. There is very little post-sale revenue from Macs, so it is hard to see how a Macbook SE makes sense from a profitability perspective, either short or long term. If it is a school only product that's different - getting kids used to using a Mac would have obvious benefit for Apple down the road.

I am curious about one thing: why would the new iPhone having USB-C make the decision for you on whether to upgrade? Having a different connector on the cable I plug in to charge is about the least important thing possible to me. I used to connect it to a computer once in a while for backups but have never plugged my 14 Pro Max into anything but a charger in a year of owning it since they finally made it possible to encrypt iCloud backups with a key I control. If it charged with an old school 2.5/2.1mm DC connector and didn't have a data port at all it would hardly matter to me.

 

[mikegg]

As some of us originally said years ago, sale prices don't count. Sale prices on Apple products at Amazon and other retailers have existed for eons. We're talking consumer retail (and consumer edu) pricing here.

Also, using inflation calculations to justify your 2020 argument three years later in 2023 is just a cheat.

Why not? $1 today is not the same as 2020.

Everything has to be inflation-adjusted if we want to compare prices. If you don't, you're going to be wrong. Period.

So you're still adamant that Apple won't release a low-cost Macbook, something like a Macbook SE, right? Just so we have it on record again.

 

[mikegg]

M1 and A16 isn't all that different in cost, given that the M1 uses cheaper LPDDR4X. But if Apple is making a stripped down Mac to compete with Chromebooks I suppose every dollar counts. If you look at iPhone SE's price point and the fact a new version is due maybe they'd leverage the SE's platform for this stripped down Mac, so they'd be identical inside. The only thing they need to change is leaving out the cellular chip, then instead of putting it in a phone case you put it in a laptop case with a full HD display which is good enough for classroom use and you're done. I would be very curious to see the teardown and see if that's the case if they do use an A-series SoC.

Even the iPad Air for $599 has an M1. There's no point in using an A series chip for a Macbook SE. Plus, Macs require different display controllers and IO. There is no need to compromise the A series for a Macbook SE.

Any Macbook SE would likely get a one generation old SoC. For example, they could release the Macbook SE using the old M1 Air body but with an M2. Highend laptops will use M3. And Apple will update it once every other year. For example, it'll get an M4 chip when others are on M5.

My original prediction in 2020 was $699 - $750. Because of inflation, I'm guessing $799. Apple clearly has a ton of margin to make $799 work.

 

[Eug]

Apple has signed a new licencing deal with ARM. I wonder what “beyond 2040” means exactly. It also bought some shares for the IPO, of an unknown amount.

Apple inks new long-term deal with Arm for chip technology, according to filing

Apple has signed a new deal with Arm for chip technology that "extends beyond 2040," according to Arm's initial public offering documents filed on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

 

[Doug S]

Why not? $1 today is not the same as 2020.

Everything has to be inflation-adjusted if we want to compare prices. If you don't, you're going to be wrong. Period.

So you're still adamant that Apple won't release a low-cost Macbook, something like a Macbook SE, right? Just so we have it on record again.

Inflation adjusting prices for tech is stupid, unless you also do the "quality adjustments" the CPI index does - basically it deflates the price to account for technology improvements i.e. the fact that a $1000 PC in 1983 is vastly inferior to the PC the inflation adjusted amount of $3088 would buy today. Or $1000 would buy today. Or $100 for that matter...

Inflation isn't some multiplier that makes everything x% more expensive - for example the prices for used cars have gone up far more than the headline rate while prices for cell phone plans have fallen. Companies can and often do use inflation as an excuse for increasing their prices regardless of whether their costs have actually gone up, figuring consumers will just accept it - that's probably why corporate profits have hit record highs recently. So you can't assume Apple's cost to make e.g. a laptop has gone up x% just because CPI says so.

 

[Mopetar]

Inflation is money becoming less valuable, not products becoming more expensive. Double the number of dollars in circulation and whatever you have now starts to approach half of its previous value relative to existing goods and services as the market adjusts to the sudden influx.

Inflation is making the value of any money that companies have lose value in just the same way that your money is losing value. Any amount of inflation will lead to "record profits" because a company has to take in more dollars to have the same value as previously. Unless inflation is adjusted for you can't just use the raw number. It's no different than the record breaking box office figures for new films. Of course they want to make it seem impressive so they tend not to adjust for inflation or changes in ticket prices.