Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[Ajay]

iOS 17 supports phones with 2 GB so it shouldn't be visibly lagging. Maybe the .0.1 or .1 release will fix it? Or possibility it is related to the battery cells weakening and the SoC has to back down on power draw occasionally?

Well, supports and performs well are two different things. Same is the case with Windows.

 

[adroc_thurston]

I assume Zen 5 laptop also will have something similar to compare.

No.
Why spam SKUs when you can avoid it.

For a phone these chips crazy overkill

That's just cope, Apple had a nice IPC/perf CAGR on CPUs and it all but died out.

 

[A///]

To be fair RGT is a lot more level headed about it, they usually present rumours as rumors and do not pretend otherwise.

MLID on the other hand discusses them with the certainty of a company PR exec, which gives people the wrong impression.

He still gives a fair bit of fluff mate. It also doesn't stop me from picking on him or thinking he needs to be registered with the local constabulary and stay away from the local schools. It's the rat's nest he calls his hair that does him in mostly.

 

[soresu]

It also doesn't stop me from picking on him or thinking he needs to be registered with the local constabulary and stay away from the local schools

.......🙁

That was just a completely unnecessary step beyond 😒

Think it all you like, but I don't find that sort of thing a worthy subject to joke about on here or any other public forum.

 

[Mopetar]

.......🙁

That was just a completely unnecessary step beyond 😒

Think it all you like, but I don't find that sort of thing a worthy subject to joke about on here or any other public forum.

It's so over the top that it's pretty hard to take it as any kind of serious criticism. I've seen far meaner things said about MLID and I doubt they were made in jest.

 

[A///]

.......🙁

That was just a completely unnecessary step beyond 😒

Think it all you like, but I don't find that sort of thing a worthy subject to joke about on here or any other public forum.

I don't. While Paul, I assume that's his name based on how I was told this constantly by some on here, says a few right things which do pan out, a lot of it is hot air. He subjects himself to criticism. In an era where people put themselves on the youtube and they're watched by people old enough to be their father or older than that, my old school thinking isn't going to change to compliment him on how ridiculous he looks.

I don't judge the guy from gamers nexus because he doesn't look u unkempt, is knowledgeable, and has interesting video material. We all had metal hair like that in our youths... some of us miss hair but i digress....

It's so over the top that it's pretty hard to take it as any kind of serious criticism. I've seen far meaner things said about MLID and I doubt they were made in jest.

MLID invites controversy. He thrives on it. Do you think he's not aware of all the comments about him? Don't matter though, that massive chin of his will deflect it all.

 

[Jan Olšan]

4X faster hardware raytracing than doing it in software

Eh, note that there actually isn't a whole 4x speedup from software path. I also misinterpreted it at first but what the keynote says is different. The 4x figure is for A17 running its hardware acceleration versus A16 running software. But A17 has 20% higher performance from start (and that's included in the 4x figure, since it comes from 20% more GPU cores).

So the actual speedup from software->hardware should be more like 3,33x (but it's muddy apples to oranges comparison, so the difference may be different A17 versus A17).

 

[A///]

I have yet to watch the presentation but what surprised me was the game they were running to show the graphics improvement. I believe that is a ubisoft game. Was there news sometime between the last M2 releases and now that Apple has signed deals with major studios for them to translate their games for the m2 and a17?

 

[igor_kavinski]

Was there news sometime between the last M2 releases and now that Apple has signed deals with major studios for them to translate their games for the m2 and a17?

Apple execs on M2 chips, winning gamers and when to buy a Mac | TechCrunch

Apple's M series chips were incredibly well telegraphed when they arrived in late 2020. Apple had been designing its own silicon since the A4 appeared in

techcrunch.com

See the section "Gaming on the Mac".

 

[mikegg]

Inflation adjusting prices for tech is stupid, unless you also do the "quality adjustments" the CPI index does - basically it deflates the price to account for technology improvements i.e. the fact that a $1000 PC in 1983 is vastly inferior to the PC the inflation adjusted amount of $3088 would buy today. Or $1000 would buy today. Or $100 for that matter...

Inflation isn't some multiplier that makes everything x% more expensive - for example the prices for used cars have gone up far more than the headline rate while prices for cell phone plans have fallen. Companies can and often do use inflation as an excuse for increasing their prices regardless of whether their costs have actually gone up, figuring consumers will just accept it - that's probably why corporate profits have hit record highs recently. So you can't assume Apple's cost to make e.g. a laptop has gone up x% just because CPI says so.

We were doing a price prediction back in 2020. The Macbook SE hasn't come out there. It's a speculated product. If I'm to do the same prediction today, I'd suggest $799.

 

[A///]

Apple execs on M2 chips, winning gamers and when to buy a Mac | TechCrunch

Apple's M series chips were incredibly well telegraphed when they arrived in late 2020. Apple had been designing its own silicon since the A4 appeared in

techcrunch.com

See the section "Gaming on the Mac".

That I know. I was asking has anything changed since then? I know a few studios converted their games to test performance and videocards had an article or two on that. I think it was for cyberpunk.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I was asking has anything changed since then?

Well, Apple IS pretty secretive. They tried this once before with Doom 3 and Geforce 3 when they wowed everyone with those awesome graphics with nicely rendered shadows. The final game didn't look anything like that cool demo and nor did it make the Mac a gaming powerhouse. But then Steve Jobs wasn't serious about gaming. Maybe Tim Cook wants to rectify that before he gives up his ghost.

 

[poke01]

Mirage and RE4 Remake are now playable on iPhone 15 Pro. 720p at 30fps probably. Still not bad for a fan less device

 

[A///]

Well, Apple IS pretty secretive. They tried this once before with Doom 3 and Geforce 3 when they wowed everyone with those awesome graphics with nicely rendered shadows. The final game didn't look anything like that cool demo and nor did it make the Mac a gaming powerhouse. But then Steve Jobs wasn't serious about gaming. Maybe Tim Cook wants to rectify that before he gives up his ghost.

Oh wow I had no idea about that. the early years of nvidia were an ultimate blur for me because I was an ati fan at the time. they had some real stinkers at the era.

 

[Doug S]

Well, Apple IS pretty secretive. They tried this once before with Doom 3 and Geforce 3 when they wowed everyone with those awesome graphics with nicely rendered shadows. The final game didn't look anything like that cool demo and nor did it make the Mac a gaming powerhouse. But then Steve Jobs wasn't serious about gaming. Maybe Tim Cook wants to rectify that before he gives up his ghost.

Apple is VERY serious about gaming, just not the type of gaming people posting at Anandtech care about. The mobile gaming industry is larger than console gaming and PC gaming combined.

It is quite possible Apple doesn't consider it worth bothering with a low single digit increase in their overall gaming revenue by making the Mac an attractive enough gaming platform that their ~10% Mac market share translated into ~10% PC gaming market share. That would require a lot more than just fast GPUs.

 

[mikegg]

Mirage and RE4 Remake are now playable on iPhone 15 Pro. 720p at 30fps probably. Still not bad for a fan less device

More importantly, that makes those titles more than likely to release on iPads and Macs with Apple Silicon.

iOS, iPads, Macs all share the same APIs and same hardware (except hardware differences between generations). The thought was, that if you make a game for iOS because it's a huge market, it takes very little effort to port the game to iPadOS and macOS.

 

[eek2121]

Well, Apple IS pretty secretive. They tried this once before with Doom 3 and Geforce 3 when they wowed everyone with those awesome graphics with nicely rendered shadows. The final game didn't look anything like that cool demo and nor did it make the Mac a gaming powerhouse. But then Steve Jobs wasn't serious about gaming. Maybe Tim Cook wants to rectify that before he gives up his ghost.

iOS devices are the most popular gaming devices out there. The Apple TV is a decent gaming console as long as you ignore the lack of AAA titles and other heavy hitters.

I game on PC, but all my kids game on iOS devices.

 

[Glo.]

Apple is VERY serious about gaming, just not the type of gaming people posting at Anandtech care about. The mobile gaming industry is larger than console gaming and PC gaming combined.

It is quite possible Apple doesn't consider it worth bothering with a low single digit increase in their overall gaming revenue by making the Mac an attractive enough gaming platform that their ~10% Mac market share translated into ~10% PC gaming market share. That would require a lot more than just fast GPUs.

Maybe Macs have 10% market share, but Apple sillicon devices have around 1.5 billion devices installed and actively used.

That market is no slouch.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I game on PC, but all my kids game on iOS devices.

Kids are more likely to play silly games which most mobile games are.

Serious games like Death Stranding and RE4 Remake running on Apple silicon signal a shift in Apple's gaming strategy. Optimization is key, though. They absolutely need every game to run at minimum 30fps on the base M1 hardware, otherwise there will never be a market big enough for the publishers to care much about.

 

[Ajay]

Probably not all silly. And what's wrong with puzzle games anyway? 2021 category breakdown:


Eh, forgot this:

Game revenues on iOS decreased by 4.3% in 2022 to $50 billion. Even with this negative growth, iOS was responsible for 61% of all mobile gaming revenues.

That is certainly not a silly number at all!

 

[Doug S]

Maybe Macs have 10% market share, but Apple sillicon devices have around 1.5 billion devices installed and actively used.That market is no slouch.

Sure, and that market is killing it in games. If they are getting 61% of overall mobile gaming as Ajay's post noted, and based on below mobile gaming was $93 billion in 2021 vs $87 billion for PCs and consoles combined, then Apple is getting $57 billion of it - 31% of ALL gaming. That's more than either the $37 billion for PC gaming or $50 billion for console gaming.

It sounds crazy, but Apple makes more money from gaming than the entire console gaming industry, and over 50% greater than the entire PC gaming industry.

 

[A///]

Apple takes a fee off of extra game option/package sales and paid game sales. Apple doesn't necessarily develop any games and sell themselves. It's disingenuous to claim Apple makes money from gaming when they make a lot of money from doing nothing other than running the infrastructure to have that platform available to game and app makers.

 

[Ajay]

Apple takes a fee off of extra game option/package sales and paid game sales. Apple doesn't necessarily develop any games and sell themselves. It's disingenuous to claim Apple makes money from gaming when they make a lot of money from doing nothing other than running the infrastructure to have that platform available to game and app makers.

No one who matters is confused.

 

[Doug S]

Apple takes a fee off of extra game option/package sales and paid game sales. Apple doesn't necessarily develop any games and sell themselves. It's disingenuous to claim Apple makes money from gaming when they make a lot of money from doing nothing other than running the infrastructure to have that platform available to game and app makers.

How do you think Sony and Microsoft make most of their console revenue? Is making most of their money as a middleman OK by you since they do make some games, but it is a bad thing that Apple makes all of theirs as a middleman? What percentage of revenue would Apple have to make from developing and selling games themselves before they lose the asterisk you want to place beside their revenue total?

 

[A///]

How do you think Sony and Microsoft make most of their console revenue? Is making most of their money as a middleman OK by you since they do make some games, but it is a bad thing that Apple makes all of theirs as a middleman? What percentage of revenue would Apple have to make from developing and selling games themselves before they lose the asterisk you want to place beside their revenue total?

Sony and Microsoft run their own infrastructure that hosts games. You still pay them as a developer fees for an SDK. Try again.