Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[StinkyPinky]

Imagine some bimbo not dating you because on her $300 iphone SE she gets a green bubble from your $1500 android phone and thinks you're cheap.

Dodged a bullet for sure.

 

[Doug S]

Imagine some bimbo not dating you because on her $300 iphone SE she gets a green bubble from your $1500 android phone and thinks you're cheap.

Dodged a bullet for sure.

In this case it is 99% certain the reason she's not dating you is because you refer to women as "bimbos"

 

[DrMrLordX]

In this case it is 99% certain the reason she's not dating you is because you refer to women as "bimbos"

She'd never even know!

 

[FlameTail]

Was the M1 GPU bottlenecked by limited Memory bandwidth?

The Apple M1 has 68 GB/s of Memory Bandwidth, which looks quite bad just 3 years later.

That came from LPDDR4X-4266 RAM mated to a 128 bit memory bus.

Just 3 years later (today), we have phone SoCs with LPDDR5X-8533 mated to 64 bit buses, hitting 68 GB/s. And then some with LPDDRT-9600 going as high as 76 GB/s.

 

[Doug S]

Was the M1 GPU bottlenecked by limited Memory bandwidth?

The Apple M1 has 68 GB/s of Memory Bandwidth, which looks quite bad just 3 years later.

Bottlenecked in what sort of situations, exactly?

I'm sure one could come up with benchmarks where that is a bottleneck, but how often would that be run into in the real world? If it is something you would rarely see, who cares? If it is something you would see often then sure it matters, but I remember when M1 came out everyone was talking about how much memory bandwidth it had compared to pretty much every other integrated (and a lot of lower end discrete) GPUs. Three years later it "looks quite bad"? Technology marches on, so older stuff will always be behind. When that stop happening the tech market is in big trouble.

Theoretically Apple could have pushed LPDDR5 into it to get it 100 GBps, but then people would be complaining that M2 didn't get an upgrade over M1 (you know, like people have complained about M3 not getting a memory type upgrade over M2...)

I imagine M4 will use LPDDR5X and get 133 GBps, and people will complain "why not use 5T and get 150...."

 

[FlameTail]

Well here's how it should've been.

Here me out.

M1 series = LPDDR4X-4266
M2 series = LPDDR5-5500
M3 series = LPDDR5-6400
M4 series = LPDDR5X-7500
M5 series = LPDDR5X-8533
M6 series = LPDDR5T-9600
M7 series = LPDDR6-?????

You are welcome to react with 'Haha'.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Well here's how it should've been.

Here me out.

M1 series = LPDDR4X-4266
M2 series = LPDDR5-5500
M3 series = LPDDR5-6400
M4 series = LPDDR5X-7500
M5 series = LPDDR5X-8533
M6 series = LPDDR5T-9600
M7 series = LPDDR6-?????

You are welcome to react with 'Haha'.

All wrong (no offense!). If it "should've been", then all M series CPUs should've had HBM2 minimum. Apple can afford it and buying in volume, they could even have gotten the base model to start at 12GB.

 

[linkgoron]

All wrong (no offense!). If it "should've been", then all M series CPUs should've had HBM2 minimum. Apple can afford it and buying in volume, they could even have gotten the base model to start at 12GB.

Apple can afford it, but can the consumer?

 

[igor_kavinski]

Apple can afford it, but can the consumer?

HBM2 can't add more than $500 to the base model's price, can it? That's no big deal for the average Apple user. They see an Apple product, their mind shows them how buying it will change their life for the better.

 

[Eug]

It looks like Apple’s 5G modem likely is dead in the water. I wonder how much money they have spent.

Apple to Discontinue Custom 5G Modem Development, Claim Reports

Apple is discontinuing in-house modem development after several unsuccessful attempts to perfect its own custom 5G modem chip, according to...

www.macrumors.com

 

[jpiniero]

It looks like Apple’s 5G modem likely is dead in the water. I wonder how much money they have spent.

Yikes. Just buying the modem business from Intel was a billion.

Either they will have to stick with Qualcomm or switch to Mediatek... which is what Intel did.

 

[FlameTail]

It looks like Apple’s 5G modem likely is dead in the water.

I thought the thread was also dead.

On the other hand, I can imagine Qualcomm execs celebrating at this news.

 

[gdansk]

That's an unfortunate rumor, I was hoping the other rumor that they'd put modems in their laptops was true. Well I guess it could still be true? But it seems less likely if it isn't Apple's modem.

I was hoping for a future MBA 15 with notch-less OLED display and an integrated 5G modem.

 

[Doug S]

If that's true they should go to Mediatek and offer to buy the rights to their modem. Pay them enough that they can have all the IP for the design, baseband software, plus a forever license to all their cellular patents at the time of purchase. Might cost them another billion or two, but then they can take that design forward as their own modem in the future.

I don't see why Mediatek wouldn't be willing to do such a deal. Apple is not really a competitor of theirs, and all else being equal it is probably better for them if Apple doesn't continue using Qualcomm modems indefinitely as that only strengthens their biggest competitor in Android SoCs. So it would basically be free money, plus weakening of their chief competitor, a win/win for Mediatek.

 

[Glo.]

The real reason why Apple developed their own modem was corporate espionage of technical details of Qualcomm modems, and the ease of development of software like Pegasus.

Any non-custom solutions will not ease this problem for Apple.

 

[Doug S]

The real reason why Apple developed their own modem was corporate espionage of technical details of Qualcomm modems, and the ease of development of software like Pegasus.

Any non-custom solutions will not ease this problem for Apple.

That's why I said ALL IP from Mediatek, including the baseband firmware. They can audit it themselves for any security issues, and fix them on their own schedules.

The one security exploit used by NSO that was fully detailed by Google Zero did not involve the baseband - it involved five separate bugs that were chained together to allow owning the device. That doesn't mean there aren't baseband issues that are exploited (or that Qualcomm's baseband doesn't have security "holes" known to intelligence agencies like the NSA) but we don't have any proof that Pegasus has relied on baseband exploits.

 

[FlameTail]

A: LPDDR5-6400 + 256-bit bus

B: LPDDR5X-8533 + 192-bit bus

Both have 200 GB/s of memory bandwidth.

Which combination is more expensive?

 

[SteinFG]

A: LPDDR5-6400 + 256-bit bus

B: LPDDR5X-8533 + 192-bit bus

Both have 200 GB/s of memory bandwidth.

Which combination is more expensive?

256-bit. More silicon, more chips, more traces

 

[Doug S]

CNBC did an interview/video about Apple's chip design process. No new information, but does include a peek inside Apple's chip lab, supposedly the first time journalists have been allowed to film inside (so obviously they hid everything we'd really love to see) but does include a few tidbits about the way they test new chips.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2023/12/...hips-for-iphone-and-mac-edging-out-intel.html

 

[Saylick]

CNBC did an interview/video about Apple's chip design process. No new information, but does include a peek inside Apple's chip lab, supposedly the first time journalists have been allowed to film inside (so obviously they hid everything we'd really love to see) but does include a few tidbits about the way they test new chips.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2023/12/...hips-for-iphone-and-mac-edging-out-intel.html

Wait wait wait. So you're telling me that Apple's silicon labs doesn't look like this?! Color me shocked!



/s

 

[Doug S]

Wait wait wait. So you're telling me that Apple's silicon labs doesn't look like this?! Color me shocked!

View attachment 89633

/s

I'm sure the engineers aren't sitting inside the same room as all those test machines are running, but also aren't sitting in that CGI design studio in the picture above - if for no other reason than many people aren't going to want to spend 8 hours a sitting in one of those backless chairs!

 

[Mopetar]

I suppose chairs like that are one way to encourage workers to use standing desks.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

I suppose chairs like that are one way to encourage workers to use standing desks.

Can that be classified as punishment for not meeting the expectations of top bras?
You don't meet expectations? Then here is this "very comfortable" chair for you.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Can that be classified as punishment for not meeting the expectations of top bras?
You don't meet expectations? Then here is this "very comfortable" chair for you.

Top bras? Are they uncomfortable too?

 

[Eug]

CNBC did an interview/video about Apple's chip design process. No new information, but does include a peek inside Apple's chip lab, supposedly the first time journalists have been allowed to film inside (so obviously they hid everything we'd really love to see) but does include a few tidbits about the way they test new chips.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2023/12/...hips-for-iphone-and-mac-edging-out-intel.html

According to Johny Srouji, Apple started its chip design odyssey with 40-50 engineers, and now they have thousands. Despite this, he emphasized several times that "Apple is NOT a chip company". Hmmm...