Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[igor_kavinski]

I'm sure there's a reason why they are so often laid out like that

Redundant pathways for the signals maybe?

@adroc_thurston, any insights you would like to share?

 

[SteinFG]

So this is a question in general about display engines, not just the ones in Apple Silicon.

Say for example: a chip has four display engines that each support a 4K external monitor. So can all four of the engines combine together to support an 8K display (since 8K is four times 4K) ?

No combining. It should just support 8K from the start, no need for wacky stuff.

 

[SteinFG]

It looks like four, but each of the four are mirror image layouts, so it does look very much like it could be eight.

In my (admittedly highly amateur) experience of examining die photos, that sort of mirroring is common for pairing I/O blocks. I'm sure there's a reason why they are so often laid out like that, but I don't know what that reason is (probably something you have to be an EE to fully understand like parasitic capacitance)

- Display engine is not I/O.
- It's mirrored because it's easy

 

[Nothingness]

It looks like four, but each of the four are mirror image layouts, so it does look very much like it could be eight.

In my (admittedly highly amateur) experience of examining die photos, that sort of mirroring is common for pairing I/O blocks. I'm sure there's a reason why they are so often laid out like that, but I don't know what that reason is (probably something you have to be an EE to fully understand like parasitic capacitance)

I considered that option but dismissed it because between the two fully visible supposed pairs there's logic that looks similar and is not symmetric. And this doesn't look like an artifact, because both visible blocks look the same. But I'm certainly not an expert even not an amateur, so I'm probable wrong

EDIT: This claims 4 display engines as I guessed:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1719379808516280716

 

[FlameTail]

No combining. It should just support 8K from the start, no need for wacky stuff.

How about splitting?

Can one 4K engine support several 1080p monitors?

 

[FlameTail]

Hold on,

What about the internal display? The screen of the Macbook itself?

I considered that option but dismissed it because between the two fully visible supposed pairs there's logic that looks similar and is not symmetric. And this doesn't look like an artifact, because both visible blocks look the same. But I'm certainly not an expert even not an amateur, so I'm probable wrong

EDIT: This claims 4 display engines as I guessed:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1719379808516280716

4 Engines for 4 external monitors. What about the internal display?

 

[SteinFG]

Can one 4K engine support several 1080p monitors?

Nah

 

[igor_kavinski]

- It's mirrored because it's easy

Easy in what sense?

 

[SteinFG]

Hold on,

What about the internal display? The screen of the Macbook itself?


4 Engines for 4 external monitors. What about the internal display?

From apple's page
M3 Pro: Three external displays at most. [So M3 Pro has 4 display engines].
M3 Max: Seven external displays at most. [So M3 max has 8 display engines]
Their wording is weird, so I'm not sure exactly what they mean, but this is my interpretation. Maybe I'm completely wrong.

edit:
M3: One external display at most. [So M3 has at least 2 display engines].
M3 Pro: Two external displays at most. [So M3 Pro has at least 3 display engines].
M3 Max: Four external displays at most. [So M3 max has at least 5 display engines]

 

[SteinFG]

Easy in what sense?

Often it's easier to make a layout for a thing and then just mirror it to make a second one. pro: No additional work required; con: restricts just a bit.

 

[FlameTail]

View attachment 90199
From apple's page
M3 Pro: Three external displays at most. [So M3 Pro has 4 display engines].
M3 Max: Seven external displays at most. [So M3 max has 8 display engines]
Their wording is weird, so I'm not sure exactly what they mean, but this is my interpretation. Maybe I'm completely wrong.

edit:
M3: One external display at most. [So M3 has at least 2 display engines].
M3 Pro: Two external displays at most. [So M3 Pro has at least 3 display engines].
M3 Max: Four external displays at most. [So M3 max has at least 5 display engines

I am now supremely confused;

 

[FlameTail]

Easy in what sense?

Just use snipping tool to snip the part, rotate it and paste.

Easy.

 

[SteinFG]

I am now supremely confused;

I said "at least", not "exact". For example, 8 falls into "at least 5"

 

[Nothingness]

View attachment 90199
From apple's page
M3 Pro: Three external displays at most. [So M3 Pro has 4 display engines].
M3 Max: Seven external displays at most. [So M3 max has 8 display engines]
Their wording is weird, so I'm not sure exactly what they mean, but this is my interpretation. Maybe I'm completely wrong.

edit:
M3: One external display at most. [So M3 has at least 2 display engines].
M3 Pro: Two external displays at most. [So M3 Pro has at least 3 display engines].
M3 Max: Four external displays at most. [So M3 max has at least 5 display engines]

Nice find, thanks
For the record, the link: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP898?locale=en_US

 

[FlameTail]

I said "at least", not "exact". For example, 8 falls into "at least 5"

Then what is the use of the extra 3 displays engines?




Even M2 Max Mac Studio only supports 5 displays. I assume the M2 Max has the same number of display engines (x8) ?

 

[SteinFG]

Then what is the use of the extra 3 displays engines?

View attachment 90206


Even M2 Max Mac Studio only supports 5 displays. I assume the M2 Max has the same number of display engines (x8) ?

No clue. There's a chance that Apple just draws die shots however they want, and in reality there's something we can't see

 

[FlameTail]

View attachment 90199
From apple's page
M3 Pro: Three external displays at most. [So M3 Pro has 4 display engines].
M3 Max: Seven external displays at most. [So M3 max has 8 display engines]
Their wording is weird, so I'm not sure exactly what they mean, but this is my interpretation. Maybe I'm completely wrong.

edit:
M3: One external display at most. [So M3 has at least 2 display engines].
M3 Pro: Two external displays at most. [So M3 Pro has at least 3 display engines].
M3 Max: Four external displays at most. [So M3 max has at least 5 display engines]

Oh we are such dummies.

The extra display engines are for defect redundancy!

As the chips become larger, the defects increase exponentially.

Apple added extra display engines so that they can still sell the chip if upto 3 engines are defected.

We know they don't bin display engines. Ie: both the full CPU/GPU version and the cut down CPU/GPU version have the same display support. So the only way for them to skirt around defects is this.

M3: 2 engines - all used

M3 Pro: 4 engines - 3 used, 1 for defects

M3 Max: 8 engines - 5 used, 3 for defects.

 

[FlameTail]

I have solved the riddle!

Imma go grab a treat to celebrate.

 

[Nothingness]

No clue. There's a chance that Apple just draws die shots however they want, and in reality there's something we can't see

The annotated die shots we have been discussing are not from Apple, are they?

 

[SteinFG]

The annotated die shots we have been discussing are not from Apple, are they?

1) Die shots are apple's, annotations aren't
2) Apple can photoshop the image however they want, so better not to search for a ton of meaning in there.

 

[DrMrLordX]

EDIT: This claims 4 display engines as I guessed:

TSMC N3D? Wat?

 

[Hitman928]

TSMC N3D? Wat?

Typo that is corrected in a follow-up tweet.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Typo that is corrected in a follow-up tweet.

Ohh okay. Nevermind then.

 

[FlameTail]

Oh we are such dummies.

The extra display engines are for defect redundancy!
.

So are we agreed that the mystery is solved?

 

[SteinFG]

So are we agreed that the mystery is solved?

Nah, I'll just leave it undecided