Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

Page 78 - Discussion - Apple Silicon SoC thread

Page 78 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

M1 Ultra discussion here:

Page 109 - Discussion - Apple Silicon SoC thread

Page 109 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

M2 discussion here:

Page 127 - Discussion - Apple Silicon SoC thread

Page 127 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

Page 215 - Discussion - Apple Silicon SoC thread

Page 215 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

M4 Family discussion here:

Page 263 - Discussion - Apple Silicon SoC thread

Page 263 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

 

[Glo.]

What MBP model do you have? I mean how many CPU and GPU cores?

M1 MBP is only one model, and its 13 inch.

 

[FlameTail]

When people say M1 MBP, I am sometimes unsure if they are referring to the base M1 version or perhaps M1 Pro/M1 Max.

 

[Nothingness]

M1 MBP is only one model, and its 13 inch.

Sorry but you are wrong. As FlameTail points out 14/16 MBP also had M1 variants.

 

[Glo.]

Sorry but you are wrong. As FlameTail points out 14/16 MBP also had M1 variants.

...

How many MBP 14 and 16 were offered with M1 chip, in particular?

 

[gdansk]

...

How many MBP 14 and 16 were offered with M1 chip, in particular?

Some people get tired of saying Pro Max all the time and simply say M1 MBP (sometimes even omitting the Pro here if spoken) even if it's a M1 Pro or M1 Max MacBook Pro 14/16.

But yes, on Anandtech Forums the post most probably meant what they said and it's the M1 MBP 13.

 

[Doug S]

Apple burning bridges with the developers Vision Pro really needs

Apple’s “malicious compliance” with Europe’s Digital Markets Act (DMA) is burning bridges with the very people the company needs to...

9to5mac.com

This is what I meant what is happening with devs. And its not only limited to Vision Pro.

Apple alienated the people who are making Apple platforms viable.

Those EU rules only have potential impact on big time developers like Epic or Spotify. It doesn't make any difference to one man shops, who don't have the option to create their own app store or take the risk of putting their app on someone else's app store where it will be ignored by most Apple owners.

Whenever there is a new platform, the small developers are the ones that come up with something original. Yes they produce stupid stuff like fart apps too, but the big developers aren't going to invest a lot of resources into producing something new for the Vision Pro. It will be some guy somewhere who falls in love with it and has an original idea that allows doing something that's never been done before. That's where any potential "killer app" will come from. It will never come from the companies helped by the EU ruling like Epic and Meta.

 

[FlameTail]

When will Apple move to 2P + 6E setup for A series CPUs? A18 Bionic?

Snapdragon 8 Gen 4 will have a 2P + 6E setup.

Mediatek D9300 will reportedly have a 3P + 5E setup.

Android SoC makers are stuffing in huge multi-core performance.

 

[Doug S]

When will Apple move to 2P + 6E setup for A series CPUs? A18 Bionic?

Snapdragon 8 Gen 4 will have a 2P + 6E setup.

Mediatek D9300 will reportedly have a 3P + 5E setup.

Android SoC makers are stuffing in huge multi-core performance.

Since when has Apple followed the lead of Android SoCs? If they did that they would have gone to four P cores years ago. If Android SoCs had better E cores they wouldn't need so many of them.

 

[FlameTail]

Since when has Apple followed the lead of Android SoCs?

Well, they have had no reason to do that before, as they had the undisputed leadership in CPU ST and MT performance.

 

[Doug S]

Well, they have had no reason to do that before, as they had the undisputed leadership in CPU ST and MT performance.

Not so, Apple has not always lead in MT because Androids were using a lot more cores. Apple does not think all core MT performance matters for phones though, because it isn't a realistic real world load.

 

[FlameTail]

all core MT performance matters for phones though, because it isn't a realistic real world load.

Agreed. There was a leak of the next gen D9400 hitting nearly 12K in GB6 MC.

That leak was probably fake, but is absurd nonetheless.

 

[soresu]

Apple does not think all core MT performance matters for phones though, because it isn't a realistic real world load.

Since everyone basically destroyed background app compute it isn't real world anymore at least.

Prior to that MT scores on phones would have been relevant.

 

[Eug]

Apple has exercised its option extend its modem deal with Qualcomm to 2027.

Apple Extends Modem Licensing Deal With Qualcomm Through March 2027

Apple has extended its modem chip licensing agreement with Qualcomm through March 2027, Qualcomm said today during its first earnings call of 2024....

www.macrumors.com

Is anyone surprised? Actually, I’m expecting them to negotiate a deal beyond 2027 too.

 

[eek2121]

Well, they have had no reason to do that before, as they had the undisputed leadership in CPU ST and MT performance.

They still have no need to IMO.

 

[moinmoin]

Is anyone surprised? Actually, I’m expecting them to negotiate a deal beyond 2027 too.

Apple does still have an active Wireless Technologies and Ecosystems department in Germany, bought from Intel and originally from Infineon. So it is interesting that Apple in this case keeps relying on an external supplier.

 

[Eug]

Apple does still have an active Wireless Technologies and Ecosystems department in Germany, bought from Intel and originally from Infineon. So it is interesting that Apple in this case keeps relying on an external supplier.

That’s what I mean. Apple has been working hard on this for quite some time now, but they still haven’t been able to compete with Qualcomm. Apple seemed overconfident in their modem design abilities and it bit them in their assets.

 

[Nothingness]

Apple seemed overconfident in their modem design abilities and it bit them in their assets.

I know people who were at Intel working in the modem division. They said it was a horrible mess. As usual Intel destroyed what they bought due to complacency and incompetence.

I can't believe Apple didn't know before they bought it. Or perhaps they thought the people Intel had been firing over the years in that division didn't matter that much.

 

[FlameTail]

Apple does still have an active Wireless Technologies and Ecosystems department in Germany, bought from Intel and originally from Infineon. So it is interesting that Apple in this case keeps relying on an external supplier.

???

Apple relies on an external supplier (Qualcomm) because their internal solution (5G modem) isn't good enough. They are working to fix that, and in the meantime they have to buy the solution from an external supplier.

 

[moinmoin]

???

Apple relies on an external supplier (Qualcomm) because their internal solution (5G modem) isn't good enough. They are working to fix that, and in the meantime they have to buy the solution from an external supplier.

!!!

If they are extending the contract with QC well into the future it means they expect their internal effort to not bear fruits in at least that time. Apple bought Intel's modem staff back in Q4 2019, and we are essentially talking about that not having tangible results at least until Q2 2027. That's a long time.

Said Wireless Technologies and Ecosystems division is part of Apple's Munich R&D office which they are heavily expanding. I wonder how big of a part it actually is (are they expanding the modem team, or are they giving up?).

 

[Tigerick]

When will Apple move to 2P + 6E setup for A series CPUs? A18 Bionic?

Snapdragon 8 Gen 4 will have a 2P + 6E setup.

Mediatek D9300 will reportedly have a 3P + 5E setup.

Android SoC makers are stuffing in huge multi-core performance.

Actually, your question is quite interesting. If you are familiar with Apple, they tend to stick with same LPDDR5 for few years and I don't think they will upgrade to LPDDR5x until LPDDR6 appears. That's why atm A-series is memory bandwidth constrained, that's why their GPU performance is slower than SD. I am sure Apple will try to address this with some caching in upcoming A18 and A19...

That's mean the big changes will happen in 2026 with LPDDR6, ie. A20 Pro. With double memory BW, GPU performance will definitely getting big bump, as for amount of CPU cores, I think Apple will increase small amount of cores, you can guess how many....

 

[Mopetar]

Interesting. How is the battery life when gaming?

I usually only game with it plugged in, so I don't have a lot of data, even the anecdotal sort, here. I do recall once playing Wasteland 3 while not plugged in and that after around two hours the battery was quite low. It wasn't completely full when I started, but compared to almost any other workload, gaming will drain the battery considerably faster.

What MBP model do you have? I mean how many CPU and GPU cores?

It's a 16" MacBook Pro with the M1 Max. 8P2E CPU core configuration and 32 GPU cores.

 

[FlameTail]

Actually, your question is quite interesting. If you are familiar with Apple, they tend to stick with same LPDDR5 for few years and I don't think they will upgrade to LPDDR5x until LPDDR6 appears. That's why atm A-series is memory bandwidth constrained, that's why their GPU performance is slower than SD. I am sure Apple will try to address this with some caching in upcoming A18 and A19...

I guess LPDDR6 will come to market in early 2026/late 2025- with the Snapdragon 8 Gen 5 generation of phones.

That's mean the big changes will happen in 2026 with LPDDR6, ie. A20 Pro. With double memory BW, GPU performance will definitely getting big bump, as for amount of CPU cores, I think Apple will increase small amount of cores, you can guess how many....

Wait, A20 is a late 2026 SoC. You yourself said Apple delays their adoption of new LPDDR. A16 Bionic was the first to adopt LPDDR5, almost 3 years after Android SoCs did!

So following this logic, A20 won't use LPDDR6.

 

[Doug S]

Since everyone basically destroyed background app compute it isn't real world anymore at least.

Prior to that MT scores on phones would have been relevant.

I don't buy that. What's the real world use case for a phone crunching away on all cores as fast as it can, and causing it to heat up and run down the battery in a matter of hours? At any rate Apple has stated they don't consider all core MT meaningful from a performance perspective, they emphasize single core performance for the big cores and power efficiency for the small cores because they believe that's what best translates to an improved experience for the things most people actually do with their phones.

 

[FlameTail]

So when will Apple up the core count for the base M chip?

It's been 4P+4E all the way from M1 to M3.

 

[Doug S]

!!!

If they are extending the contract with QC well into the future it means they expect their internal effort to not bear fruits in at least that time. Apple bought Intel's modem staff back in Q4 2019, and we are essentially talking about that not having tangible results at least until Q2 2027. That's a long time.

Said Wireless Technologies and Ecosystems division is part of Apple's Munich R&D office which they are heavily expanding. I wonder how big of a part it actually is (are they expanding the modem team, or are they giving up?).

When they originally announced the deal it had a two year option available. I think most of us expected Apple could get their own modem working without that extension, but I guess the Intel modem group was more dysfunctional than anyone guessed.

Reportedly that team was mostly based in India, if it is like the Indian teams I've interfaced with in my consulting work they experience a lot of turnover among their best people (they constantly switch jobs as they keep getting better offers since high performing tech people in India can write their own ticket) while the average/low performers stay around forever and accomplish almost nothing. Maybe they are building a team in Germany to take it over.

I always said (and this applies to people in the US as well) in any large team you will have 10% of the people doing 80% of the work and 80% of the people doing 50% of the work. Yes those numbers don't add up, because the remaining 10% of the team does negative work - if they are coding they write bad code that doesn't work and after a lot of time is wasted trying to debug it eventually has to be rewritten by someone who knows what they are doing, if they are working a service desk they are closing tickets when problems aren't properly fixed causing escalations and problems management has to deal with, and so forth. The problem is, unless someone who really knows their stuff spends a lot of time looking over their shoulders (a lot more than their manager has, even if he's technically clueful enough to fairly judge) it is very hard to tell the 10% who do negative work from the 80% who do competent but not outstanding work.