Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[FlameTail]

It's not a desktop replacement, you're supposed to carry it. The thing is not very comfortable to use even when working from home and moving one room to another. It's not about bragging rights.

But sure, keep treating those using Apple products as different species.

It's a Macbook PRO

 

[igor_kavinski]

It's a Macbook PRO

Yes, hire a slave assistant to carry it around.

 

[FlameTail]

The Macbook Pro's aren't even that heavy. Dell's 2024 XPS 14/16 are heavier than the Macbook Pro 14/16 respectively.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Dell Precision laptop can be used in lieu of a brick to commit murder.

 

[Doug S]

Apple planning redesigned iPhone, MacBook Pro, and Apple Watch that are significantly thinner - 9to5Mac

Last month, Apple unveiled its thinnest product ever with the new M4 iPad Pro. Measuring in at 5.1mm, the 13-inch...

9to5mac.com

They are going to make the Macbook Pro thinner.

Which means the TDP is going to be reduced, while the Apple Silicon team continues to raise the power consumption...

Unless, they are cooking up a new microarchitecture that significantly reduces the power consumption?

Or they are going to make the Macbook Pro thinner while maintaining the TDP?

PS: A thinner Macbook Pro will also have worse speaker quality.

I'm going to assume Apple is not dumb, and has plans to mitigate these issues - or more likely has been assembling the technology to make this possible for some time and is finally ready to pull the trigger. Maybe they will be moving to a different battery formulation that either provides more wh per volume, or more charge cycles before it degrades. Maybe M5 generation makes a big stepwise decrease in power consumption. As for the speakers, there are plenty of technologies available to do better speakers than laptops today that would work in a thinner laptop. It is all about what you're willing to pay (which is often influenced by economies of scale, that is, these technologies won't be so expensive if Apple is producing them in the millions)

Since Jony Ive left, Apple hasn't made any of his form over function decisions like the butterfly keyboard. So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt they don't have designers saying "its going to be thinner consequences be damned!" Their designers don't have the level of power Ive enjoyed any longer, they can't make such a decree by fiat the way Ive seemed to be able to.

 

[poke01]

I have held fatter laptops. I don't carry them around unnecessarily but I can understand that Apple users need to flaunt their Apple devices. I mean, you know, they spent a lot of money on those things. Might as well show them off as much as possible to tell the world how well off they are.

Do you have something against Apple users? There are thinner Windows laptops out there that are also professional laptops. These are thinner than a MacBook Pro. But when Apple does it oh my goodness it’s baaad….

PC users also flaunt their expensive PCs, it’s seems that you like to promote division within the tech community

 

[poke01]

Yeah, like Doug, they figured, people don't need their battery past their bedtime. Let's make the laptop thinner and raise the prices!

The new 11” and 13” iPads while being thinner have better life than their predecessors and the 11” has a high battery while being thinner.

 

[poke01]

Apple planning redesigned iPhone, MacBook Pro, and Apple Watch that are significantly thinner - 9to5Mac

Last month, Apple unveiled its thinnest product ever with the new M4 iPad Pro. Measuring in at 5.1mm, the 13-inch...

9to5mac.com

They are going to make the Macbook Pro thinner.

Which means the TDP is going to be reduced, while the Apple Silicon team continues to raise the power consumption...

Unless, they are cooking up a new microarchitecture that significantly reduces the power consumption?

Or they are going to make the Macbook Pro thinner while maintaining the TDP?

PS: A thinner Macbook Pro will also have worse speaker quality.

Did the TDP decrease for the M4 iPad Pro? I don’t think so. Cooling improved and this will be the same for the upcoming redesign.

Apple’s current cooling system is very simple. They got room for massive improvements.

 

[poke01]

The Macbook Pro's aren't even that heavy. Dell's 2024 XPS 14/16 are heavier than the Macbook Pro 14/16 respectively.

Dell isn’t a great laptop maker in 2024. Have you seen their latest XPS line? It’s bad.

Lenovo and ASUS, LG all have lighter/thinner pro laptops than Apple’s ones.

 

[okoroezenwa]

Do you have something against Apple users?

He was bullied by one it seems.

 

[Mopetar]

He was bullied by one it seems.

Steve Jobs shot his dog.

 

[FlameTail]

Dell isn’t a great laptop maker in 2024. Have you seen their latest XPS line? It’s bad.

Lenovo and ASUS, LG all have lighter/thinner pro laptops than Apple’s ones.

Yeah, the Dell XPS 2024 lineup is the joke of the year. Case closed.

 

[mikegg]

Just a guess. Apple has to meet the September deadline for iPhones. QC/MTK have some leeway.

It’s been over 1.5 years since N3 went into mass production and we still don’t have a single Qualcomm or Mediatek N3 product in the market.

They’re not leapfrogging Apple just because N2 might not make A19 timeline. Apple might simply use the time to make more M6 and launch them in higher quantity like the M3 series.

It’s far more likely that Nvidia outbids everyone for N2 wafers if Apple isn’t first.

 

[Doug S]

Apple’s current cooling system is very simple. They got room for massive improvements.

Up until the M4 iPad I think their cooling system was "eh, these CPUs sip power, it'll all work itself out"

 

[FlameTail]

It’s been over 1.5 years since N3 went into mass production and we still don’t have a single Qualcomm or Mediatek N3 product in the market.

They have no incentive because N3B is costly and has bad yields. N3E didn't make it in time for the 2024 chips (8Gen4, D9400).

 

[SpudLobby]

They have no incentive because N3B is costly and has bad yields. N3E didn't make it in time for the 2024 chips (8Gen4, D9400).

I also doubt there was enough volume anyways even if they wanted N3B. But N3E will be here with QC/Mtek, so his “1.5 years” thing is just a tedious arbitrary jab. I could also just say it will be here 2 years later, Apple having sold an actual part with N3B it like 9 months after it entered HVM.

Also it’s delusional to think Qualcomm and MediaTek are going to use N2 in 2025. No way. N3P.

 

[poke01]

TechInsights has their analsyis of the M4 out. It appears the P cores are now using the high-performance libraries. This makes sense since they have higher clocks and consumer more power. They said this is a shift from Apple normally using high-density libraries. The GPU and the E-Cores are still HD tho.

https://www.techinsights.com/blog/introducing-tsmc-n3e-power-behind-apples-m4-soc

Note: the full article is paid.

 

[Doug S]

TechInsights has their analsyis of the M4 out. It appears the P cores are now using the high-performance libraries. This makes sense since they have higher clocks and consumer more power. They said this is a shift from Apple normally using high-density libraries. The GPU and the E-Cores are still HD tho.

https://www.techinsights.com/blog/introducing-tsmc-n3e-power-behind-apples-m4-soc

Note: the full article is paid.

It will be interesting to see if that's changed in the P cores in iPhone 16. How difficult is it these days to design a single core and use it in two different products, one with HP libraries, the other with HD? In the past as I understand it that would have been problematic, at the least, but more and more is automated these days...

Isn't Finflex supposedly to let you make those choices at much finer granularity than entire core complexes? It seems like it would be more efficient to use higher density / lower power cells everywhere, and sprinkle in some HP cells where necessary to close up critical path timing issues. Or am I asking for more than is currently feasible? Or that's possible but Apple apparently chose not to? (And if so I suppose having only 7 months between M3 and M4 might have influenced their ability to do so)

 

[TwistedAndy]

It will be interesting to see if that's changed in the P cores in iPhone 16. How difficult is it these days to design a single core and use it in two different products, one with HP libraries, the other with HD? In the past as I understand it that would have been problematic, at the least, but more and more is automated these days...

Isn't Finflex supposedly to let you make those choices at much finer granularity than entire core complexes? It seems like it would be more efficient to use higher density / lower power cells everywhere, and sprinkle in some HP cells where necessary to close up critical path timing issues. Or am I asking for more than is currently feasible? Or that's possible but Apple apparently chose not to? (And if so I suppose having only 7 months between M3 and M4 might have influenced their ability to do so)

Apple has switched to HP libraries to achieve 4.5GHz for their P-cores and will use 7-9W for ST loads on iPhone 16.

Technically, they can run the SoC in iPhone 16 on the same 4 GHz as last year, but it will consume 4% more power and offer 8% more performance.

 

[FlameTail]

This is unclear to me...

Is the max clock speed 4.4 or 4.5?

 

[igor_kavinski]

How difficult is it these days to design a single core and use it in two different products, one with HP libraries, the other with HD?

I think those two would be distinct projects. A single core designed with HP libraries may need completely different optimizations if the various structures need to work with the limitations of HD libraries. Machine learning may be able to speed things up a bit but it would still not be a small task.

 

[igor_kavinski]

(And if so I suppose having only 7 months between M3 and M4 might have influenced their ability to do so)

I hope you don't seriously believe that M4 was done in 7 months. M3/M4 and even M5 may have been in parallel development because Apple has enough resources to do something like that.

 

[TwistedAndy]

I think those two would be distinct projects. A single core designed with HP libraries may need completely different optimizations if the various structures need to work with the limitations of HD libraries. Machine learning may be able to speed things up a bit but it would still not be a small task.

Apple will continue pushing the new P-core built using the HP libraries for iPhones as well. They have to show some performance improvement. A 7-8% IPC increase looks too small. So, they have to increase clocks above 4.0 GHz. It's possible only with the HP libraries.

 

[igor_kavinski]

A 7-8% IPC increase looks too small. So, they have to increase clocks above 4.0 GHz. It's possible only with the HP libraries.

Apple will be the first one to introduce reverse SMT to increase ST performance because that's where they are heading!

 

[poke01]

Apple will continue pushing the new P-core built using the HP libraries for iPhones as well. They have to show some performance improvement. A 7-8% IPC increase looks too small. So, they have to increase clocks above 4.0 GHz. It's possible only with the HP libraries.

I’m sure they will increase clocks but it’s probably the same as M3 clocks. And how is this any different than ARM or Qualcomm? They also push clocks.