Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[Eug]

What is the data on that failure rate though? I have never had an SSD failure, or even a spinning disc failure for that matter.

My Tandy Color Computer from the 1980s still works. Outside of physical or liquid damage no semiconductor component has ever stopped working for me.

Wow, you are very lucky.

I've had a couple of SSD fail (including a Samsung), and many spinning HDs (various brands) fail over the years. I've also had several USB flash drives fail.

OTOH, I just tested my 23" and 30" Apple Cinema HD Displays from about 2007 and they still work. In fact, the 23" (1920x1200) works fine as an external display to my 2024 iPad Pro M4. The 30" (2560x1600) requires dual-link DVI which apparently the iPad Pro doesn't support. However, the 30" does work fine via USB-C on my 2017 MacBook with the proper USB-C to DL-DVI adapter.

 

[soresu]

I've had a couple of SSD fail (including a Samsung), and many spinning HDs (various brands) fail over the years. I've also had several USB flash drives fail.

Samsung SSD for me.

What's worse is that it was a 4 TB EVO and I was under the impression that those would last quite a while, it lasted less than 2.5 years 😒

Meanwhile my first SSD a 500 GB Crucial drive is still working after I started using it in 2017.

Needless to say that will be the last Samsung SSD I buy.

 

[poke01]

What is the data on that failure rate though? I have never had an SSD failure, or even a spinning disc failure for that matter.

Its not frequent but it does happen. A SSD wears out, its not good to solder it. Even the X Elite surface tablet has a removeable SSD.

Considering M1 Macbooks came out around 3 years ago its not a good look.

 

[poke01]

IIRC you can boot off an external drive.

You cannot do that if the internal SSD is dead on a M1 and later Mac. Only when the internal SSD is not dead, you can.

Apple's designed these MacBook's like appliances. Use and throw.

 

[Doug S]

I wonder how die area in the SoC do these NAND controllers take up?

Tiny. So tiny you will never see it listed on an annotated die size of an iPhone/Mac SoC.

 

[Doug S]

Nitpick but from my understanding it is more accurate to say they didn't just buy the controller from Anobit, but they bought Anobit itself thereby acquiring both great NAND controllers and associated IP, along with the great engineers that designed them.

True, that's what I meant but I guess I wasn't clear in how I expressed it.

 

[Doug S]

What’s even worse is they solder the SSDs on the MacBooks!!

It’s pure e-waste after the SSD dies or an expensive repair.

I'll bet you'd have to really work hard to wear out the SSD on those. Anobit claimed they'd figured out a way to extend the life of NAND using complex proprietary signal processing algorithms and they could achieve 2-3x the life that other controllers do, and that was supposedly one of the big reasons Apple bought them (and one would assume you'd have to provide proof of such claims before Apple will hand you a $400 million check)

People keep worrying about this, but I have yet to see a single report of a Mac that's died because its NAND wore out. I think people don't realize how difficult it is to wear out NAND. Sure, you can come up with some sort of use case where you're writing hundreds of MB per second 24x7 that might wear it out, but if you're one of the dozen people who are going to be doing that to a Macbook you might want to look into buying one of those TB4 m.2 enclosures I mentioned above since even if it was possible to replace Apple's SSDs you'd have to open it up (which is hardly convenient with a Macbook) so the enclosure makes sense for multiple reasons (including performance, if the bandwidth of the built in SSD is a limiter at times you can stripe together multiple drives in your enclosure)

 

[Doug S]

Samsung SSD for me.

What's worse is that it was a 4 TB EVO and I was under the impression that those would last quite a while, it lasted less than 2.5 years 😒

Meanwhile my first SSD a 500 GB Crucial drive is still working after I started using it in 2017.

Needless to say that will be the last Samsung SSD I buy.

I've never had an SSD fail on me, but plenty of hard drives over the years. That's why I always mirror.

I'm still using a pair of 80 GB Intel X-25M SSDs I bought nearly 15 years ago for the boot drive in the PC I'm typing this on. I wouldn't put money on having both sides of a mirror running for 15 years straight through several PC builds if they were HDDs, that's for sure!

The one fear I do have with SSDs is if you update the controller firmware (which is sometimes forced on you by the OS as part of a patch/kernel update) having two identical drives could cause them both to fail together, or one shortly after the other. When I do my next PC build I'll probably get a couple 4 TB m.2 drives and I'm strongly considering buying two different brands just to eliminate that. It'd slow down the mirror to the speed of the slowest, but SSDs are so much faster than what I really need 99.9% of the time I'm fine with that.

 

[poke01]

I'll bet you'd have to really work hard to wear out the SSD on those. Anobit claimed they'd figured out a way to extend the life of NAND using complex proprietary signal processing algorithms and they could achieve 2-3x the life that other controllers do, and that was supposedly one of the big reasons Apple bought them (and one would assume you'd have to provide proof of such claims before Apple will hand you a $400 million check)

People keep worrying about this, but I have yet to see a single report of a Mac that's died because its NAND wore out. I think people don't realize how difficult it is to wear out NAND. Sure, you can come up with some sort of use case where you're writing hundreds of MB per second 24x7 that might wear it out, but if you're one of the dozen people who are going to be doing that to a Macbook you might want to look into buying one of those TB4 m.2 enclosures I mentioned above since even if it was possible to replace Apple's SSDs you'd have to open it up (which is hardly convenient with a Macbook) so the enclosure makes sense for multiple reasons (including performance, if the bandwidth of the built in SSD is a limiter at times you can stripe together multiple drives in your enclosure)

I know I just want them to make it removable like on the Mac Studio/Mac Pro. They should at least do so on the MBP.

 

[Doug S]

I know I just want them to make it removable like on the Mac Studio/Mac Pro. They should at least do so on the MBP.

They'd have to make the MBP easy to open for that be worthwhile, and Apple hates screws

 

[Orfosaurio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1810110237552058536

2025H2 and TSMC 2nm??

Doesn't sound like it's for M4 Ultra.

Apple M5, more like.

Is Apple skipping the N3P and N3X nodes?

 

[Orfosaurio]

They'd have to make the MBP easy to open for that be worthwhile, and Apple hates screws

"Screws are not magic enough!"

 

[FlameTail]

Is Apple skipping the N3P and N3X nodes?

Good catch.

Maybe?

 

[FlameTail]

N2 volume production doesn't start until 2025H2 though. That's the contentious point.

 

[SteinFG]

They already skipped N4, N4P, N4X. Apple wants efficiency, so they skip all those "custom" nodes that increase performance with slight increase in power draw

 

[FlameTail]

Apple wants efficiency, so they skip all those "custom" nodes that increase performance with slight increase in power draw

Aah. I don't think that's how it works.

Performance improvements come at iso power, or conversely power improvements come at iso performance.

Of course you could push the silicon beyond the iso-power performance improvement that the node brings, which will then increase power

 

[Gideon]

Nitpick but from my understanding it is more accurate to say they didn't just buy the controller from Anobit, but they bought Anobit itself thereby acquiring both great NAND controllers and associated IP, along with the great engineers that designed them.

Thus it would be super easy to put that controller behind an M.2 slot to offer more flexibility for at least some products, but soldering 256 / 512GB of NAND is of course way more profitable.

 

[okoroezenwa]

They already skipped N4, N4P, N4X. Apple wants efficiency, so they skip all those "custom" nodes that increase performance with slight increase in power draw

A16 was N4P I think, so this is doubtful.

 

[FlameTail]

A16 was N4P I think, so this is doubtful.

Vanilla N4, not N4P.
N4P HVM only began in 2022H2.

TSMC diagram says as much:

 

[okoroezenwa]

Vanilla N4, not N4P.

Ah, ok. I wasn’t sure which one it was, thanks.

 

[Eug]

Thus it would be super easy to put that controller behind an M.2 slot to offer more flexibility for at least some products, but soldering 256 / 512GB of NAND is of course way more profitable.

The NAND modules on the Mac Studio are physically swappable. It can’t be done by the end user though. The modules are not available for purchase, and require some specific undocumented installation configuration to activate. But regardless, they can be swapped.

EDIT:

Actually, you can buy the Mac Studio NAND modules now under the recent self-service repair program:

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The swap is still beyond most end users' abilities though. However, it can be done by service technicians and well-educated enthusiasts.

 

[Eug]

They'd have to make the MBP easy to open for that be worthwhile, and Apple hates screws

The MBP bottom cover is held on by screws and clips.

 

[poke01]

The NAND modules on the Mac Studio are physically swappable. It can’t be done by the end user though. The modules are not available for purchase, and require some specific undocumented installation configuration to activate. But regardless, they can be swapped.

Sucks, the the only machine Apple officially supports to upgrade is the Mac Pro. They can design it to be like this for their other Macs, easily accessible to replace or upgrade.

Install or replace SSD modules in your Mac Pro (2023) – Apple Support (AU)

Learn how to install SSD modules in your Mac Pro and how to use Apple Configurator to set them up for your Mac.

support.apple.com

 

[Eug]

The NAND modules on the Mac Studio are physically swappable. It can’t be done by the end user though. The modules are not available for purchase, and require some specific undocumented installation configuration to activate. But regardless, they can be swapped.

Hmmm... My info is too old. The NAND modules now can be ordered for the Mac Studio directly from Apple, with some caveats.

The NAND modules are available via the Apple self service repair program. However, that program originally only allowed for buying the same NAND sizes as what your machine shipped with. You couldn't upgrade the storage amount. However, as of a few months ago, you sometimes can now buy bigger storage modules under this repair program, although it seems to be hit and miss. Some people are still only allowed to buy the same size modules as their original machines, whereas others can order larger models. It seems to be serial number dependent. You also need to use service technician type configuration software to do the install, and you need a second Mac to do it.

Sucks, the the only machine Apple officially supports to upgrade is the Mac Pro. They can design it to be like this for their other Macs, easily accessible to replace or upgrade.

Install or replace SSD modules in your Mac Pro (2023) – Apple Support (AU)

Learn how to install SSD modules in your Mac Pro and how to use Apple Configurator to set them up for your Mac.

support.apple.com

Arrggh. On first glance the M2 Ultra Mac Pro SSD modules look identical to the Mac Studio ones, but unfortunately, they are not actually identical. They are just a few mm different in size.

 

[Mopetar]

People keep worrying about this, but I have yet to see a single report of a Mac that's died because its NAND wore out. I think people don't realize how difficult it is to wear out NAND. Sure, you can come up with some sort of use case where you're writing hundreds of MB per second 24x7 that might wear it out,

I recall a Mac review a few years ago where someone did a torture test of the SSD where for a week or so they just maxed it out writing garbage as fast as the controller could handle.

After looking at the results reported, they concluded they'd need to run that program for at least three years before the drive would exceed the advertised write endurance threshold.

Even power users will likely replace the computer with a newer faster model before the SSD goes bad due to wear. It can still fail for other reasons though, but most users will never come close.