Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

Page 78 - Discussion - Apple Silicon SoC thread

Page 78 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

M1 Ultra discussion here:

Page 109 - Discussion - Apple Silicon SoC thread

Page 109 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

M2 discussion here:

Page 127 - Discussion - Apple Silicon SoC thread

Page 127 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

Page 215 - Discussion - Apple Silicon SoC thread

Page 215 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

M4 Family discussion here:

Page 263 - Discussion - Apple Silicon SoC thread

Page 263 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

 

[Eug]

There's no marketing deception here. Apple makes it VERY clear what you are buying. There's nothing hidden - the 8GB of RAM is $100. It's very clear. It's not hard for anyone to work out that their costs are probably $6 for that. Nothing deceptive.

I'm just salty that Apple is shipping 12 GB iPad Pros but only exposing 8 GB of that to users. It might just be a supply chain anomaly, and might not even be in all 8 GB iPads, but it annoys me nonetheless.

I can't say I'm surprised though. Not about the hidden 4 GB, but the 8 GB spec. I was expecting it'd be 8 GB for the 2024 model, and then 12 GB for the next model in late 2025. If it isn't 12 GB, I will be irritated. And if the M4 MacBook Air doesn't come with 12 GB, I will also be quite irritated.

 

[The Hardcard]

@johnsonwax , The game played by Apple isn't played by others. The others try but stumble in various ways and their products depreciate with time. Apple has mastered the art of marketing deception and that's how their products keep their value, despite inherently being of less value. That's all there is to it. Yes, they attracted some great talent and made some impressive hardware and technologies. But they are the worst example of how a successful company should be. Their nearest counterpart is Nvidia. Third was Intel until they were decimated by AMD. Nothing can go on forever. Apple and Nvidia will both have to pay for their sins. Everyone will see. It's just a matter of time.

What marketing deception exactly? You persist in your delusions that your subjective opinion about Apple and its products are objective truth that others by all rights should agree with.

Everyone should be free to have their own opinion on the value of the products. I have as much right to my views as you do. I’ve owned, built, programmed, sold, upgraded, and repaired computers for 43 years now. I had very little experience with Apple and Macs until they bought NeXTSTEP and rolled it into Mac OS X in 2001.

I regard Apple differently than you and value Apple devices higher than you. It has nothing to do with marketing. But those are my subjective opinions and I recognize and accept that others have differing views. I hate working with Windows, not because of all the crap Microsoft is now doing, I think the basic structure of Windows is less conducive to getting work done than Windows. I see people make the exact opposite claim constantly, I don’t think it’s because of a deception, people are different.

I don’t understand why you have such a hard time recognizing that the higher value and appeal many have for Apple products is because they have a different viewpoint than you. But oh no, while Moses came down with the Ten Commandments you were walking down side by side with him carrying your Divine Truths About Apple to free a userbsse mesmerized by falsehoods and trickery.

Uh, no. That’s not the way it works. Apple has a huge eyes wide open fanbase, who are willing to pay what you think is the wrong to pay. There is nothing wrong with your views, but there’s nothing wrong with mine either. The continuous implication that Apple users are people who just don’t understand what their dealing with is just wrong.

 

[Orfosaurio]

What marketing deception exactly? You persist in your delusions that your subjective opinion about Apple and its products are objective truth that others by all rights should agree with.

Everyone should be free to have their own opinion on the value of the products. I have as much right to my views as you do. I’ve owned, built, programmed, sold, upgraded, and repaired computers for 43 years now. I had very little experience with Apple and Macs until they bought NeXTSTEP and rolled it into Mac OS X in 2001.

I regard Apple differently than you and value Apple devices higher than you. It has nothing to do with marketing. But those are my subjective opinions and I recognize and accept that others have differing views. I hate working with Windows, not because of all the crap Microsoft is now doing, I think the basic structure of Windows is less conducive to getting work done than Windows. I see people make the exact opposite claim constantly, I don’t think it’s because of a deception, people are different.

I don’t understand why you have such a hard time recognizing that the higher value and appeal many have for Apple products is because they have a different viewpoint than you. But oh no, while Moses came down with the Ten Commandments you were walking down side by side with him carrying your Divine Truths About Apple to free a userbsse mesmerized by falsehoods and trickery.

Uh, no. That’s not the way it works. Apple has a huge eyes wide open fanbase, who are willing to pay what you think is the wrong to pay. There is nothing wrong with your views, but there’s nothing wrong with mine either. The continuous implication that Apple users are people who just don’t understand what their dealing with is just wrong.

Not only that, but Apple fans who analyze (at least a beat) Apple products and services are one of the most critical and demanding fanbases of all, if not the most critical and entitled of all. They do not need to be "tech savvy" to do that, take the example of Eve Jobs.

 

[FlameTail]

So apparently Apple has special sauce related to PDN, process libraries and process customisation, that makes Apple Silicon so good.

 

[okoroezenwa]

So apparently Apple has special sauce related to PDN, process libraries and process customisation, that makes Apple Silicon so good.

Neat.

 

[Doug S]

I honestly don't understand your metric here given that Apple and Nvidia are such wildly different companies in every respect.

When he posted that screed putting Apple and Nvidia in the same bucket that's such a ridiculous take that it makes me think it is down plain old petty jealousy on his part. He doesn't like that some people have enough money that they are fine paying what Apple and Nvidia ask for their products, while he sees them as "overpriced" and is either too poor or too stingy to be willing to buy something he sees as be priced more than the value he assigns to them. He wants someone to come down on them and "force" them to price their products the way he thinks they should.

Or maybe he's just mad he didn't buy their stocks when they were a fraction of their current price, so he wants to see those of us who did take a hit.

 

[soresu]

Apple has a huge eyes wide open fanbase

(I can't think up a less political analogy for this issue, so please excuse it mods)

That sounds not so unsimilar from various times I have seen people say:

"I've never met an X party voter before, so how could they win an election?"

Just because the people you rub shoulders with on a semi regular basis are "eyes wide open" Apple buyers doesn't mean that the great unwashed masses that make up likely 95+% of Apple's bottom line correspond to this level of self awareness in their purchasing habits.

It's your basic echo chamber problem.

Much like what we occasionally have here in this forum of hardware enthusiasts where we fool ourselves into thinking that the vast majority of PC buying public think just like we do, when even a moments introspection or a visit to your local PC retailer would reveal that just isn't the case.

 

[poke01]

So apparently Apple has special sauce related to PDN, process libraries and process customisation, that makes Apple Silicon so good.

That’s not the only thing. The uarch is also good.

 

[FlameTail]

That’s not the only thing. The uarch is also good.

Yes, but that's what differentiates them from say- Qualcomm for instance. Even if Qualcomm created a uarch that's good as Apple's, the final SoC will be inferior.

 

[igor_kavinski]

That’s not the only thing. The uarch is also good.

Is it really? Don't you agree that a good uarch should be balanced? Mx arch is more leaning towards ST performance and low power use. I posted a comparison in the Raptor Lake thread (I think) showing how a cheaper (granted heavy and more power hungry) laptop with a Geforce GPU beat Apple's more expensive laptop in a lot of creative workloads. It's just an illusion if you think their arch is good. They have to scale it up and actually compete, instead of keeping it exclusive with high prices and giving uninformed buyers the impression that they are getting the best performance in the world.

My point being, Apple hardware has fewer use cases due to their "expensive" arch that probably costs them a lot due to die size and probably other manufacturing oddities. They can't compete on price and they are not the best in EVERY workload. They have their own specialized set of workloads that creative professionals married to the Apple ecosystem depend on. It's not the best hardware for general use especially when the price and lack of options are taken into account. They might get there at some point in the future but they are not there yet.

 

[poke01]

Don't you agree that a good uarch should be balanced?

It is balanced CPU wise, GPU wise its bad.

They can't compete on price and they are not the best in ANY workload.

It's not the best hardware for general use especially when the price and lack of options are taken into account.

Its excellent for devs who compile code. Have a looks below, for those in the Apple ecosystem there are not missing out general CPUs tasks. Now I agree on your statement if its the GPU performance, that is not at all great for professional workflows and also gaming.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Its excellent for devs who compile code.

The "ANY" was a typo. I meant if their CPU is so great, why isn't it at the top of EVERY workload, provided number of cores is same?

 

[poke01]

The "ANY" was a typo. I meant if their CPU is so great, why isn't it at the top of EVERY workload, provided number of cores is same?

Thats because they don't clock them as high. If Apple clocked them at 5.5GHz, they would be winning every benchmark even the ones that are not optimised for ARM.

We will see how Apple does with the M4 Max, it should be clocked at 4.5GHz which is much higher clock than the 3.6GHz on the M2 Max and 4.0Ghz on the M3 Max.

SPEC confirms this, pure CPU performance without the use of SVE or AVX-512 or SME extentions, Apple's M4 P cores themselves are top notch.

 

[Jan Olšan]

Or maybe he's just mad he didn't buy their stocks when they were a fraction of their current price, so he wants to see those of us who did take a hit.

TBH I'd expect owning stock to be a good source of distorted opinions too. If not bigger than not owning. Easily makes one more likely to really reach for the good news, ignore/try to downplay the bad, and get the "convince others" impulses.

 

[soresu]

Even if Qualcomm created a uarch that's good as Apple's, the final SoC will be inferior

But QC will still laugh all the way to the bank while Apple uses their modems 🤑

 

[FlameTail]

But QC will still laugh all the way to the bank while Apple uses their modems 🤑

Qualcomm when Apple successfully develops their in-house 5G modem:

 

[soresu]

Qualcomm when Apple successfully develops their in-house 5G modem:
View attachment 102807

It's been tried before by others with plenty of capital at their backs like nVidia.

Part of the problem is likely patent related.

I'm assuming that the big players all have unique patent portfolios that make getting into the game a great problem for newcomers without buying out someone.

 

[Nothingness]

The "ANY" was a typo. I meant if their CPU is so great, why isn't it at the top of EVERY workload, provided number of cores is same?

Breaking news: not a single CPU dominates all benchmarks. In particular when using an external GPU. Note this also applies to Mac software that relies on dedicated blocks: sometimes they win over x86 because of HW acceleration, not only because of the CPU itself.

FWIW I'm currently evaluating switching from a high-end x86 laptop to an Apple one at work. I was lent an old high-end M1. It took me about half a day to validate the switch for my everyday work. That thing just screams in all areas: compilation performance, execution speed of simulations, battery life, silence. I just don't like MacOS, but I can live with that given the benefits I get.

That's a single point of comparison for a specific use case, I know. But even though I knew Apple CPU are great, the differences in all areas that matter to me came as a pleasant surprise. Bye bye x86.

 

[Nothingness]

It's been tried before by others with plenty of capital at their backs like nVidia.

Part of the problem is likely patent related.

I'm assuming that the big players all have unique patent portfolios that make getting into the game a great problem for newcomers without buying out someone.

Intel also tried to get in the modem business. But as usual, they broke their acquisition.

 

[soresu]

But as usual, they broke their acquisition

Intel's toxic corporate culture scared off all the engineers? 🤯

 

[poke01]

compilation performance

Theres no better laptop than the M3 Max currently for this and in Linux oh boy. This is why Hector martin works on such closed hardware cause its excellent for things like these.

 

[igor_kavinski]

That's a single point of comparison for a specific use case, I know. But even though I knew Apple CPU are great, the differences in all areas that matter to me came as a pleasant surprise. Bye bye x86.

I don't disagree with that. I guess I would love the SD Elite X laptops too for the reasons you mentioned. MacOS is just so turdy that I would rather prefer going WoA than Apple anything. Unless Apple supported an official Linux distro.

 

[soresu]

It's actually kinda ironic that Intel flubbed it with an own goal - because with their own fabs they could outbid QC any day of the week with a comparable product.

 

[Nothingness]

Intel's toxic corporate culture scared off all the engineers? 🤯

Yes, Intel, as usual, tried to impose all of their culture and engineering processes to the ex Infineon teams. Their complacency is destructive. And I'm afraid they still haven't learned humility.

Looking at what Intel did with Altera and what AMD did with Xilinx tells a lot.

 

[soresu]

Yes, Intel, as usual, tried to impose all of their culture and engineering processes to the ex Infineon teams. Their complacency is destructive. And I'm afraid they still haven't learned humility.

Looking at what Intel did with Altera and what AMD did with Xilinx tells a lot.

I seem to remember that Jim Keller had a word or 2 to say on the subject after his short stint there - that might be the shortest he had been in any place for a while where it didn't involve an acquisition.