Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[Eug]

What are you talking about, Apple intelligence?

Sorry, I misspoke. It’s 16 GB minimum for AI based predictive code completion in Xcode. Post corrected.

 

[okoroezenwa]

Sorry, I misspoke. It’s 16 GB minimum for AI based predictive code completion in Xcode. Post corrected.

Ah, ok, got it. Interestingly that limitation was removed sometime in the beta cycle (I think b4). 8GB Macs can now use that feature.

 

[Glo.]

I would have bet money on a 12 GB base, but the pundits believe it will be 16 GB base. It should be noted that currently there is a minimum requirement of 16 GB for AI based predictive code completion support in Xcode, but I had been wondering if that was because no 12 GB Apple Silicon Macs existed yet. However, perhaps it really does need 16 GB minimum.

What I really want to see is an inexpensive option for 24 GB in the Mac minis, but I suspect even if they do offer that, it will only be for the non-Pro Mac mini M4. For the Mac mini M4 Pro, they may offer 16 GB and 32 GB options only again, which if not priced reasonably may make that 32 GB option kinda pointless to most, since it's so close to the Mac Studio (unless they decide to go upmarket with Mac Studio). One can hope though that if they do restrict it to 16 --> 32 GB with no 24 GB option, they'll actually price the upgrade to 32 GB reasonably. I can't see them pricing it at $200 though. Perhaps $300?

What I'm also wondering about is what they will do with the HDMI port. Right now the M2 Mac mini maxes out at 4K 60 Hz over HDMI. To get >4K over HDMI, you need to upgrade to the M2 Pro.

If base M4 has 16 GB of RAM, then M4 Pro will start with either 24 GB of RAM with 192 bit bus, or with 32 GB of RAM with 256 bit bus. And yes, we are talking about starting RAM capacities.

 

[okoroezenwa]

If base M4 has 16 GB of RAM, then M4 Pro will start with either 24 GB of RAM with 192 bit bus, or with 32 GB of RAM with 256 bit bus. And yes, we are talking about starting RAM capacities.

They could continue with 18GB on the base Pro. Would be dumb if 16GB is the base M4 RAM but it’s possible. Or they could move back to 256 bit RAM and start at 24GB. I really don’t see them starting at 32GB for the Pro, even if that’d be very nice.

 

[SteinFG]

Well, the GPU, CPU, and NPU share that memory, so having more than 18GB of shared memory on a 2000 laptop would be nice.
Currently M3 Pro supports 18 and 36GB capacities (6GB and 12GB LPDDR5-6400 modules), while M3 supports 8, 16, and 24GB (4GB, 8GB, and 12GB LPDDR5-6400 modules).
They can make M4 Pro start at either 18 or 24 GB (6GB or 8GB modules), and they can make regular M4 start at either 12 or 16GB (6GB or 8GB modules). Honestly they should just ditch 4GB and 6GB LPDDR5 modules, but that's too much to expect of apple.

 

[Glo.]

They could continue with 18GB on the base Pro. Would be dumb if 16GB is the base M4 RAM but it’s possible. Or they could move back to 256 bit RAM and start at 24GB. I really don’t see them starting at 32GB for the Pro, even if that’d be very nice.

Marketing is everything for Apple.

They want as simple price structure for upgrades as possible. Yes I know its hard to imagine that Apple will lower the prices, but... they are being forced by their competition. They will bring at least 24 GB to M4 Pro.

Hopefully - it goes back to 256 bit bus.

 

[Eug]

Honestly they should just ditch 4GB and 6GB LPDDR5 modules, but that's too much to expect of apple.

It looks like they already ditched 4 GB chips in the iPad Pro. Or rather, at least some 8 GB model teardowns are using 2 x 6 GB (with 4 of the 12 GB deactivated). This is partially why I had previously predicted the M4 Mac mini would start at 12 GB, but apparently I am probably wrong.

 

[Glo.]

Honestly they should just ditch 4GB and 6GB LPDDR5 modules, but that's too much to expect of apple.

7500 LPDDR5X has only 6 GB/64 bit capacity and higher available.

They could continue with 18GB on the base Pro. Would be dumb if 16GB is the base M4 RAM but it’s possible. Or they could move back to 256 bit RAM and start at 24GB. I really don’t see them starting at 32GB for the Pro, even if that’d be very nice.

Secondly, they CAN bring 24 GB with 256 bit bus design.

Just by cutting the bus line to 192 bit bus on BASE M4 Pro .

That way there is much larger incentive to buy the full config rather than just 1 CPU core, and potentially 2 GPU cores. And that would be another 8 GB of RAM, for total 32. Again - marketing is everything for Apple.

Edit: Mac Mini M2 Pro: 1299 for 6/4+16 GPU. M2 Pro with 8/4+19 GPU +300$
M3 Pro MacBook Pro: 1999 for 5/6+14 GPU. M3 PRo with 6/6+18 GPU +200$.


If M4 Pro offers 6/6 CPU config on full design, then Apple will not offer LESS CPU cores with upgrade, so they have to start with 5/6 CPU config. Maintaining 300$ price structure for M4 Pro upgrade for Mac Mini with that SOC would require adding something more - and that most likely would be full RAM config and another 8 GB of RAM.

If I am correct - it means that 16 GB upgrade will cost you from this generation 200$, instead of 8 GB of RAM costing this amount.

 

[Eug]

Ah, ok, got it. Interestingly that limitation was removed sometime in the beta cycle (I think b4). 8GB Macs can now use that feature.

Oh interesting. I can't seem to find an article reporting that change.

 

[okoroezenwa]

Oh interesting. I can't seem to find an article reporting that change.

Yeah, that’s weird. Anyway it was beta 6 - https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode-release-notes/xcode-16-release-notes

 

[johnsonwax]

Never under estimate the ability for venture capitalists to keep throwing more money into the pit, even if it's on fire. Uber has had tens of billions of dollars plowed into it over the years.

Ubers tens of billions were spread out. OpenAI is only getting first access to that node if they're paying Apple levels of cash per year (IOW, more than Intel, AMD, Nvidia can justify paying) - and VCs don't have that kind of money. Uber at least had a functional market at launch. The utility value of OpenAI is still largely unknown.

 

[johnsonwax]

Will note, it's 98F degrees outside, I'm playing factorio on my M1 Max on my patio, in partial sun, and it's not throttling. My i7 MBP would reliably start to throttle around 85F in the shade - without doing anything strenuous.

 

[Doug S]

Will note, it's 98F degrees outside, I'm playing factorio on my M1 Max on my patio, in partial sun, and it's not throttling. My i7 MBP would reliably start to throttle around 85F in the shade - without doing anything strenuous.

Why are you sitting outside in partial sun when it is 98F? Humanity invented air conditioning for a reason!

 

[johnsonwax]

Why are you sitting outside in partial sun when it is 98F? Humanity invented air conditioning for a reason!

Well, I pretty much live on my patio (SoCal) and in summer after spending 12 hours a day out there, I find the 76F AC house to be kind of cold. 85F becomes pretty comfortable, and low 90Fs is a bit warm, but not sweaty, provided I stay hydrated. This week I got visits from both the local parrot population and a multi-day visit from a red-tailed hawk doing its wilderness establishing-shot screech, which was quite nice. We have almost no bugs here to bother you. 98F is starting to push my ability to drink liquids fast enough. So I put it to you - why spend your life inside when you can spend it outside instead? Isn't that the greatest benefit of laptops? To enjoy the breeze and build megafactories?

 

[digitaldreamer]

Well, I pretty much live on my patio (SoCal) and in summer after spending 12 hours a day out there, I find the 76F AC house to be kind of cold. 85F becomes pretty comfortable, and low 90Fs is a bit warm, but not sweaty, provided I stay hydrated. This week I got visits from both the local parrot population and a multi-day visit from a red-tailed hawk doing its wilderness establishing-shot screech, which was quite nice. We have almost no bugs here to bother you. 98F is starting to push my ability to drink liquids fast enough. So I put it to you - why spend your life inside when you can spend it outside instead? Isn't that the greatest benefit of laptops? To enjoy the breeze and build megafactories?

Sounds like an awesome environment to work in. Never thought you'd have wildlife visits.

We moved from Calif to Missouri when I was 5-years-old, but have visited on occasion. Always loved the weather, but hated the traffic, congestion, and city life. Temps here in Missouri has been in the mid nineties, but humid. Quiet and peaceful here. Sorry for continuing off topic!

 

[igor_kavinski]

Well, I pretty much live on my patio (SoCal) and in summer after spending 12 hours a day out there, I find the 76F AC house to be kind of cold. 85F becomes pretty comfortable, and low 90Fs is a bit warm, but not sweaty, provided I stay hydrated. This week I got visits from both the local parrot population and a multi-day visit from a red-tailed hawk doing its wilderness establishing-shot screech, which was quite nice. We have almost no bugs here to bother you.

Good for you. Must've done good things to deserve all that. I mean, morally.

 

[name99]

Sounds like an awesome environment to work in. Never thought you'd have wildlife visits.

We moved from Calif to Missouri when I was 5-years-old, but have visited on occasion. Always loved the weather, but hated the traffic, congestion, and city life. Temps here in Missouri has been in the mid nineties, but humid. Quiet and peaceful here. Sorry for continuing off topic!

SoCal has a surprisingly large amount of wildlife, at least outside downtown LA.
Altadena gets black bear visits to pools every summer. Most Bradbury houses have deer wandering around. Go to the right parts of Arcadia and you will large families of peacocks.
Lots of coyotes and squirrels.
And pretty much every house has a skunk or raccoon family living somewhere on the property.

At least in part, I think it's because everyone here loves the animals. We all feed them too much, no-one hurts them, and in turn they are remarkably unscared of humans.

 

[dr1337]

Apple event soon today

 

[jdubs03]

Think we’ll see anything about a new microarchitecture for the e-cores? It’s been a a couple generations of Sawtooth.
@FlameTail I’m sure you might have an opinion on that

 

[okoroezenwa]

Think we’ll see anything about a new microarchitecture for the e-cores? It’s been a a couple generations of Sawtooth.
@FlameTail I’m sure you might have an opinion on that

I’m hopeful since M4 didn’t really move the needle on that front. However I really want to see if there’s any movement on GPU. M4 also made little progress on that front so I’m interested to see if A18 moves things forward there.

 

[poke01]

I’m hopeful since M4 didn’t really move the needle on that front. However I really want to see if there’s any movement on GPU. M4 also made little progress on that front so I’m interested to see if A18 moves things forward there.

I’m not as optimistic, I think it may have the same cores as M4.

 

[okoroezenwa]

I’m not as optimistic, I think it may have the same cores as M4.

Yeah, that’s my expectation as well. Would be weird for M4 to still be launching while A18 gets newer everything (though not ruling that out as timings could have not worked out to get it all in sync).

 

[DZero]

I am thinking... Apple is preparing to the move of the Octa core in phones by iPhone 17? The 3nm by that time would be totally efficient.

 

[The Hardcard]

Think we’ll see anything about a new microarchitecture for the e-cores? It’s been a a couple generations of Sawtooth.
@FlameTail I’m sure you might have an opinion on that

Actually, the M3 Max and A17 Pro don’t have Sawtooth. Sawtooth has two floating point/SIMD pipes whereas those two chips have a third pipe.

One of the most interesting things to me in the Apple Silicon CPU Optimization Guide is that Apple appears to use architectural features when they are ready to, and don’t maintain a strict generation across the line. The M2 has a lot of features from the A16 yet a lot of features are missing and match the A15. The per chip feature tables have the M2 going back-and-forth between those A chips.

The A17/M3 Is even more interesting because of the new E core. Apparently it wasn’t ready when the M3 and M3 Pro designs were closed, but it made the cut for the A17 and the Max. The A17 Pro is not in the guide, but the microbenchmarking diagrams show the 3rd FP pipe.

With half a year since the M4, anything is possible. any new features that were ready when the designs were closed will be in the new chips.

EDIT:

Yeah, that’s my expectation as well. Would be weird for M4 to still be launching while A18 gets newer everything (though not ruling that out as timings could have not worked out to get it all in sync).

it doesn’t appear that they worry about keeping the designs in sync at all. The opposite.

 

[igor_kavinski]

The A17/M3 Is even more interesting because of the new E core. Apparently it wasn’t ready when the M3 and M3 Pro designs were closed, but it made the cut for the A17 and the Max. The A17 Pro is not in the guide, but the microbenchmarking diagrams show the 3rd FP pipe.

With half a year since the M4, anything is possible. any new features that were ready when the designs were closed will be in the new chips.

WTFtech headline: "Apple products powered by unfinished chips with hidden beta features".