Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[poke01]

Oops. Premature specification, from Amazon USA:

View attachment 110482

M4 Pro is 14-core CPU / 20-core GPU / 64 GB RAM with two front USB-C ports

(M3 Pro is 12-core CPU / 18-core GPU / 36 GB RAM)

looks like its been removed

 

[Eug]

For a moment I was thinking "WTF" who puts an ethernet jack on a power cord but that's actually very Apple. One less wire connecting to your Mac is exactly what you'd expect them to want. You can take Jony Ive out of Apple, and get rid of cases where he went too far like the butterfly keyboard and having too few ports, but the minimalist ethos remains.

That's probably not the reason. I think the reason is because the iMac is only 11.5 mm thick, and that includes the screen and shell.

The RJ45 connector's depth may be the problem. You'll note that they don't even have the headphone jack on the back because a headphone plug is too long. So, they stuck it on the side.

 

[FlameTail]

Amazon leaks redesigned Mac mini with M4 Pro

An Amazon listing for the 24-inch iMac contained a now-removed comparison chart that included Apple's unannounced smaller Mac mini with M4 and M4 Pro.

appleinsider.com

The listed specs include an up to 14-core CPU, up to 20-core GPU, up to 64GB of RAM, and up to 8TB of storage. Apple is only offering the new Mac mini in silver.

M4 Pro
14 core CPU
20 core GPU
Upto 64 GB RAM

That's 2 more CPU cores than M3 Pro and 2 more GPU cores than M3 Pro.

I'd guess 14 cores is 8P+6E. It would be interesting to see if those 8 P-cores are on a single cluster, or divided across 2 clusters.

Also, the 'upto 64 GB RAM' suggests that M4 Pro returns to a 256b memory bus.

 

[poke01]

Looks like Apple made a typo, it now lists 8K60.

 

[SteinFG]

edit: I've mixed up mac mini and imac

 

[Eug]

View attachment 110487
Looks like Apple made a typo, it now lists 8K60.

OK. 8K 60 Hz was what I was expecting. 8K 120 Hz was a pleasant surprise but it turned out to be false.

 

[mikegg]

Oops. Premature specification, from Amazon USA:

View attachment 110482

M4 Pro is 14-core CPU / 20-core GPU / 64 GB RAM with two front USB-C ports

(M3 Pro is 12-core CPU / 18-core GPU / 36 GB RAM)

Hopefully it’s 8/6 and not 6/8 cores.

I wonder if Max will be 16/4 which means 4 more P cores than M3 Max. Would be ridiculously powerful MT if so.

 

[Eug]

Hopefully it’s 8/6 and not 6/8 cores.

I wonder if Max will be 16/4 which means 4 more P cores than M3 Max. Would be ridiculously powerful MT if so.

For 8 do you mean performance cores? Either way, undoubtedly there will be M4 Pro bins, and the top bin may prove cost ineffective, at least against next year’s Mac Studio.

BTW, I wonder what the minimum memory will be for Mac Studio. Still 32 GB? And will it hit 512 GB max as predicted?

 

[mvprod123]

View attachment 110487
Looks like Apple made a typo, it now lists 8K60.

This may be reserved for M4 Pro/M4 Max

 

[The Hardcard]

Amazon leaks redesigned Mac mini with M4 Pro

An Amazon listing for the 24-inch iMac contained a now-removed comparison chart that included Apple's unannounced smaller Mac mini with M4 and M4 Pro.

appleinsider.com

M4 Pro
14 core CPU
20 core GPU
Upto 64 GB RAM

That's 2 more CPU cores than M3 Pro and 2 more GPU cores than M3 Pro.

I'd guess 14 cores is 8P+6E. It would be interesting to see if those 8 P-cores are on a single cluster, or divided across 2 clusters.

Also, the 'upto 64 GB RAM' suggests that M4 Pro returns to a 256b memory bus.

Now I’m a little nervous. I was hoping for the Max to be 2 Pro dies, but if those specs are accurate, double that seems unrealistically high. I would be happy for 28 cores, but I just don’t have confidence.

If they went back to chop though, does that mean the M4 Max will have less cores than the M3 Max? Especially, would it have 4 less performance cores. That also seems unrealistic. How are they doing this? At least it leaves hope for the 512-bit bus remaining.

I hate this multi day format. If today is the Mini, I am going to be aggravated all day. I want to see M4 Max, dammit!

I also hoped the GPU count would be higher - Pro 24, Max 48. Oh well.

 

[mvprod123]

Now I’m a little nervous. I was hoping for the Max to be 2 Pro dies, but if those specs are accurate, double that seems unrealistically high. I would be happy for 28 cores, but I just don’t have confidence.

If they went back to chop though, does that mean the M4 Max will have less cores than the M3 Max? Especially, would it have 4 less performance cores. That also seems unrealistic. How are they doing this? At least it leaves hope for the 512-bit bus remaining.

I hate this multi day format. If today is the Mini, I am going to be aggravated all day. I want to see M4 Max, dammit!

I also hoped the GPU count would be higher - Pro 24, Max 48. Oh well.

I don't understand why there is such confidence that they will return to chop design? Obviously, these will be two completely different dies.

 

[Eug]

Now I’m a little nervous. I was hoping for the Max to be 2 Pro dies

Why were you thinking it'd be that?

I hate this multi day format. If today is the Mini, I am going to be aggravated all day. I want to see M4 Max, dammit!

Heheh. I'm more interested in the Mac mini myself. However, it would be interesting to see what's coming for M4 Max too. Maybe they wanted this graduated rollout?

Monday - M4
Tuesday - M4 Pro
Wednesday - M4 Max

Or not.

Although there is no event, this 3 day rollout is essentially an event just split up. I'm not sure why they decided to this, this time around. It's certainly more than just a press release launch.

 

[SteinFG]

This imac supports 2 extrnal displays? so is there 3 display engines in M4 or is it like macbook - you get 2 if you turn off main screen

 

[FlameTail]

Monday - M4
Tuesday - M4 Pro
Wednesday - M4 Max

Or not.

Although there is no event, this 3 day rollout is essentially an event just split up. I'm not sure why they decided to this, this time around.

Perhaps they got jealous of how Qualcomm's Snapdragon Summit is held across 3 days?

Jokes aside, I really want to see the specs of M4 Pro and M4 Max. How many more hours till the next event?

 

[The Hardcard]

I don't understand why there is such confidence that they will return to chop design? Obviously, these will be two completely different dies.

Why were you thinking it'd be that?


Heheh. I'm more interested in the Mac mini myself. However, it would be interesting to see what's coming for M4 Max too. Maybe they wanted this graduated rollout?

Monday - M4
Tuesday - M4 Pro
Wednesday - M4 Max

Or not.

Although there is no event, this 3 day rollout is essentially an event just split up. I'm not sure why they decided to this, this time around. It's certainly more than just a press release launch.

The Mark Gurman rumor from several months ago was that Brava would be for both the Pro and the Max, and that Hidra was exclusive to the Ultra. If he got that right, then either the Pro is chopped from the Max, or 2 Pros are fused for the Max. Or maybe some unique 3rd option that I can’t imagine.

I was considering the fusion because of the specific, separate M3 Pro die with half the performance cores of the M3 Max. But again, at 14 cores it is hard to see it being either chop or fusion. Both would be a surprising amount of cores for the Max.

So maybe Gurman was wrong about Brava being for both? I want to know now either way! So many leaks, but none for M4 Max. ☹️😠

 

[Eug]

This imac supports 2 extrnal displays? so is there 3 display engines in M4 or is it like macbook - you get 2 if you turn off main screen

M4 supports three active screens in the M4 MacBook Pro. The Russians demo’d that with their leaked (stolen?) units.

Perhaps they got jealous of how Qualcomm's Snapdragon Summit is held across 3 days?

Jokes aside, I really want to see the specs of M4 Pro and M4 Max. How many more hours till the next event?

Heh. The last one was yesterday morning 22 hours ago so perhaps we will see the next video about 2 hours from now.

The Mark Gurman rumor from several months ago was that Brava would be for both the Pro and the Max, and that Hidra was exclusive to the Ultra. If he got that right, then either the Pro is chopped from the Max, or 2 Pro are fused for the Max. Or maybe some unique 3rd option that I can’t imagine.

I was considering the fusion because of the specific, separate M3 Pro die with half the performance cores of the M3 Max. But again, at 14 cores it is hard to see it being either chop or fusion. Both would be a surprising amount of cores for the Max.

So maybe Gurman was wrong about Brava being for both? I want to know now either way! So many leaks, but none for M4 Max. ☹️😠

Oh yeah, I forgot he lumped the “mid tier” into Brava.

 

[mvprod123]

The Mark Gurman rumor from several months ago was that Brava would be for both the Pro and the Max, and that Hidra was exclusive to the Ultra. If he got that right, then either the Pro is chopped from the Max, or 2 Pros are fused for the Max. Or maybe some unique 3rd option that I can’t imagine.

I was considering the fusion because of the specific, separate M3 Pro die with half the performance cores of the M3 Max. But again, at 14 cores it is hard to see it being either chop or fusion. Both would be a surprising amount of cores for the Max.

So maybe Gurman was wrong about Brava being for both? I want to know now either way! So many leaks, but none for M4 Max. ☹️😠

I'm more inclined to think that Hidra is M4 Max, because it's the basis for M4 Ultra (Extreme?).

 

[mvprod123]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1851025059869024478

It is unlikely that anyone will buy it, given the outdated specifications. After the release of the M4 Max, the M2 Ultra Mac Pro will look even more ridiculous.

 

[The Hardcard]

I'm more inclined to think that Hidra is M4 Max, because it's the basis for M4 Ultra (Extreme?).

Gurman explicitly claimed that the next Ultra would get its own die unrelated to the the Max. That would make sense since Apple plans to build huge numbers of Ultras for Private Cloud Compute datacenters. There are many IP blocks that aren’t needed for cloud machines, like media encoders. They are rumored to sell consumer Ultras, but they could stick a secondary chip to support consumer functions rather than have hundreds of thousands of datacenter Ultras with large chunks of unused, expensive transistors in each.

Also, I’ll reiterate the rumors that Apple is working on an Ultra with several technologies that won’t be available until late next year. I still think there is probability that there won’t be an M4 Ultra. If these new technologies are important to their datacenter Ultra plans, the M5 cores will be ready before the next Ultra can launch.

 

[mvprod123]

Gurman explicitly claimed that the next Ultra would get its own die unrelated to the the Max. That would make sense since Apple plans to build huge numbers of Ultras for Private Cloud Compute datacenters. There are many IP blocks that aren’t needed for cloud machines, like media encoders. They are rumored to sell consumer Ultras, but they could stick a secondary chip to support consumer functions rather than have hundreds of thousands of datacenter Ultras with large chunks of unused, expensive transistors in each.

Also, I’ll reiterate the rumors that Apple is working on an Ultra with several technologies that won’t be available until late next year. I still think there is probability that there won’t be an M4 Ultra. If these new technologies are important to their datacenter Ultra plans, the M5 cores will be ready before the next Ultra can launch.

I don't remember Gurman talking about the new Ultra chip as a separate die. These rumours were mostly dismissed as Vadim Yuryev's own thoughts after the M3 Max die shots confirmed the absence of UltraFusion connection.

 

[Eug]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1851025059869024478

It is unlikely that anyone will buy it, given the outdated specifications. After the release of the M4 Max, the M2 Ultra Mac Pro will look even more ridiculous.

While I agree with you for individuals, some in this market acquire Macs based on departmental budgets, financing contract cycles, and AppleCare availability, and less on specs.

Gurman explicitly claimed that the next Ultra would get its own die unrelated to the the Max. That would make sense since Apple plans to build huge numbers of Ultras for Private Cloud Compute datacenters. There are many IP blocks that aren’t needed for cloud machines, like media encoders. They are rumored to sell consumer Ultras, but they could stick a secondary chip to support consumer functions rather than have hundreds of thousands of datacenter Ultras with large chunks of unused, expensive transistors in each.

I don't remember Gurman talking about the new Ultra chip as a separate die. These rumours were mostly dismissed as Vadim Yuryev's own thoughts after the M3 Max die shots confirmed the absence of UltraFusion connection.

Here is the exact quote:

“The company is planning three main variations of the M4: a base chip dubbed Donan; higher-end versions codenamed Brava that will replace the M3 Pro and M3 Max; and an M4 Ultra dubbed Hidra. At the end of last year, Apple released a regular M3, M3 Pro and M3 Max, but an M3 Ultra hasn’t come to market. (Apple could choose to wait until the M4 line for a new Ultra, but it’s worth noting that an M3 variation does exist internally.)”

Note however, Gurman didn't actually say Brava is one chip. Instead, he appears to suggest it's a class of chips.

As for Vadim Yuryev, I pretty much ignore what he says when it comes these things since he has essentially zero inside info, and often makes conclusions based on various misunderstandings. His YouTube channel is better suited to content creation benchmark reviews.

 

[The Hardcard]

Eug posted the quote above.

 

[mvprod123]

Apple’s new Mac mini is more mighty, more mini, and built for Apple Intelligence

Apple today unveiled the all-new Mac mini powered by the M4 and new M4 Pro chips, and redesigned around Apple silicon so it’s even smaller.

www.apple.com

TB5 in M4 Pro !!!

 

[Eug]

Apple’s new Mac mini is more mighty, more mini, and built for Apple Intelligence

Apple today unveiled the all-new Mac mini powered by the M4 and new M4 Pro chips, and redesigned around Apple silicon so it’s even smaller.

www.apple.com

Introducing M4 Pro for Pro-Level Performance

For users who want pro-level performance, Mac mini with M4 Pro features the world’s fastest CPU core5 with lightning-fast single-threaded performance. With up to 14 cores, including 10 performance cores and four efficiency cores, M4 Pro also provides phenomenal multithreaded performance. With up to 20 cores, the M4 Pro GPU is up to twice as powerful as the GPU in M4, and both chips bring hardware-accelerated ray tracing to the Mac mini for the first time. The Neural Engine in M4 Pro is also over 3x faster than in Mac mini with M1, so on-device Apple Intelligence models run at blazing speed. M4 Pro supports up to 64GB of unified memory and 273GB/s of memory bandwidth — twice as much bandwidth as any AI PC chip — for accelerating AI workloads. And M4 Pro supports Thunderbolt 5, which delivers up to 120 Gb/s data transfer speeds on Mac mini, and more than doubles the throughput of Thunderbolt 4.

Upgraded Connectivity and Display Support

The new Mac mini features a wide array of ports to drive any setup. It includes front-facing ports for more convenient access, including two USB-C ports that support USB 3, and an audio jack with support for high-impedance headphones. On the back, Mac mini with M4 includes three Thunderbolt 4 ports, while Mac mini with M4 Pro features three Thunderbolt 5 ports. Mac mini comes standard with Gigabit Ethernet, configurable up to 10Gb Ethernet for faster networking speeds, and an HDMI port for easy connection to a TV or HDMI display without an adapter. With M4, Mac mini can support up to two 6K displays and up to one 5K display, and with M4 Pro, it can support up to three 6K displays at 60Hz for a total of over 60 million pixels.

---

5 USB-C ports even on M4! Yay!

M4 Pro starts at 24 GB.

Advantage of Thunderbolt 5 port on M4 Pro is it supports DisplayPort 2.1.

 

[gdansk]

16GB, full 10 core M4 for $600. No one can beat that price to performance.