Applied Materials acquiring Tokyo Electron

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
This is HUGE. Cannot understate the impact this has on the industry. I'm actually at quite a loss for words at the moment.
 

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
12,365
475
126
Applied and Tokyo said in a joint press release that the new company would be formed as a merger of equals and would have a new name, dual headquarters in Santa Clara and Tokyo, and dual listing on the Tokyo Stock Exchange and Nasdaq. The company is to be incorporated in the Netherlands.

tax thing?

No indication was given as to what the merged company will be called.

tokyo materials
applied electron
applied tokyo electron materials
 

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
Tokyo Electron Applied Materials = TEAM
Materials Electron Applied Tokyo = MEAT
Electron Applied Tokyo Materials Electron = EATME
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,012
126
This won't be good for anybody who buys lots of semiconductor manufacturing equipment (think TSMC, Samsung, and Intel).
 
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ShadowVVL

Senior member
May 1, 2010
758
0
71
http://www.tel.com/product/index.htm Don't feel bad....I've never heard of them before today

Thanks kenmitch,I always wondered where they got fab equipment.
Wow I never knew it took soo many machines to make chips.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
Cramer doesn't think it'll happen due to anti-trust concerns.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101058498

Cramer rarely knows jack, but in this case I hope he is right. The toolset market needs both a TEL and an AMAT competing.

That said, the toolset market is not like a free competitive market the likes of say automobiles. Pricing is not the deciding factor, capability is. So these are not your usual monopoly market type concerns here.

Without a TEL and an AMAT, the industry loses a "hedge your bets" option. They basically have to rely on the future business to get the tools right at time zero, otherwise it will cause a serious "EUV type" issue with process node roadmaps.
 

jvroig

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,394
1
81
Without a TEL and an AMAT, the industry loses a "hedge your bets" option. They basically have to rely on the future business to get the tools right at time zero, otherwise it will cause a serious "EUV type" issue with process node roadmaps.
True, but isn't this a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of scenario?

Applied and Tokyo don't think it is possible to keep the pace of developing and delivering tools in a timely manner to enable semi manufacturing at the pace expected by their customers (I mean the fabs). So without merging, they are already saying "too expensive, we can't keep this pace up solo / fractured market share, we need the profits of practically the entire industry otherwise research and development here will slow down due to money."

Then of course the risk there is as you mention, there will be one less entity developing the tools, and the customers (fabs) will have have no choice but to effectively put their eggs in one basket.

What serious alternative from those two can you see? R&D is all about money, and they need more money to keep up the pace as the tech keeps on becoming more complex, and more money will only come from consolidating the profits to be had (unless the number of fabs worldwide double or triple soon, and that's even more unlikely to happen than a merger). If their backs are against a wall now, what else could they do?

This isn't rhetorical. I'm actually wondering what other possible alternatives they have. It looks to me like they either:
1.) accept that progress will slow down, and remain separate entities, or,
2.) attempt to continue the pace of R&D and new products as desired by their customers by merging and thereby consolidating all profits to effectively have more money to burn for R&D

Now, if you say their initial premise (they absolutely need more money because litho R&D is getting incredibly more and more expensive) is bunk, then that's a different matter, and not one I can evaluate for myself with any authority.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
True, but isn't this a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of scenario?

Applied and Tokyo don't think it is possible to keep the pace of developing and delivering tools in a timely manner to enable semi manufacturing at the pace expected by their customers (I mean the fabs). So without merging, they are already saying "too expensive, we can't keep this pace up solo / fractured market share, we need the profits of practically the entire industry otherwise research and development here will slow down due to money."

Then of course the risk there is as you mention, there will be one less entity developing the tools, and the customers (fabs) will have have no choice but to effectively put their eggs in one basket.

What serious alternative from those two can you see? R&D is all about money, and they need more money to keep up the pace as the tech keeps on becoming more complex, and more money will only come from consolidating the profits to be had (unless the number of fabs worldwide double or triple soon, and that's even more unlikely to happen than a merger). If their backs are against a wall now, what else could they do?

This isn't rhetorical. I'm actually wondering what other possible alternatives they have. It looks to me like they either:
1.) accept that progress will slow down, and remain separate entities, or,
2.) attempt to continue the pace of R&D and new products as desired by their customers by merging and thereby consolidating all profits to effectively have more money to burn for R&D

Now, if you say their initial premise (they absolutely need more money because litho R&D is getting incredibly more and more expensive) is bunk, then that's a different matter, and not one I can evaluate for myself with any authority.

The model is broken, that if for sure. The problem is "risk management for joint development projects".

To understand why TEL and AMAT want to merge requires a historical perspective of the business they operate in, it is not about money and at the same time it is about money.

I'll speak from experience, the tools I was interested in cost $3m-$4m each and I spent three years evaluating three separate tools (one from DNS, one from Semitool, and one from SEZ).

Now the accounting went like this - the tool suppliers had to pay my employer the installation fees, the maintenance fees, and the removal fees as incurred by the tool while it was in our fab for the duration of the evaluation. Oh and the tool itself was free, zero cost to us for the tool itself. (first one is free, the next 19 we buy would be purchased but at a volume discount, naturally)

What did that look like to the bottom-line for the tool supplier? They had to front 100% of the costs to build the tool, front the costs to ship it and install it in our fab, hire/relocate a team of upwards of 6 field technicians to service the tool and support the JDP (joint development project) for a minimum of one year, and because only one of the three tool vendors was going to win the contract at the end of the day, two of the three were going to have to front the costs of removing the tool from the fab (and then try to sell it as a refurbished tool on the 2nd hand market).

That was a HUGE cost to swallow. But why did they agree to it?

Competition.

The SEZ guys only agreed to it because the DNS guys agreed to it, who only agreed to it because the Semitool guys agreed to it, who only agreed to it because we told them during negotiations that they either accepted our terms or they accepted they would lose out on a contract that could carry upwards of 20+ tools during the node build-out phase for production.

The customer (me) had all the odds in their favor, all the economic risk was borne on the shoulders of the vendor companies.

That is/was the part of the model that was broken. And it is because that part of the JDP model (which is a lopsided risk-sharing model) that has driven companies like TEL and AMAT to the point of merging into giant beasts just to be able to finally force some balance back into the negotiations of how JDP's and tool development transpires.

(more history - Semitool went on to be bought out by AMAT, and SEZ went on to be bought out by TEL)

If there was more risk sharing and cost sharing then the R&D aspects of tool development wouldn't become a "go bankrupt while trying" type situation.

But the equation is lopsided, so these guys have to try and grow themselves to become larger than the risk potential of a tool project turning out to land jelly side down.

The downside for the fab guys is that they have less diversity to rely on. It was great 4-5 yrs ago when you could have 3 or 4 tools from the competition to compare side-by-side. The odds were in your favor that someone somewhere had developed a tool that fit your needs perfectly.

Now you don't have those odds, so odds are higher now that you'll find yourself up a creek without a paddle and left with no choice but to reward incompetent project management (the guys who can't develop a usable toolset to save their life) with oodles of more cash in a crisis-mode effort to re-engineer their derp-tool to get the job done.

So this will push the risk balance in the other direction, now the Intel's and the TSMC's will have no choice but to basically develop the tool for the vendor or fail trying. The will have become too critically inter-dependent.
 

jvroig

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,394
1
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If they merge the risk is transferred almost solely to the fabs, if they don't merge the risk remains solely on the vendors. You're right, the model is completely broken.

But the costs are getting extremely higher. Isn't that why ASML had to go the route of equity-plus-research funding deals with chipmakers? They came up across the same barrier (costs, but instead of just solely through ballooning R&D costs, now you also intimate that the very model between vendor&fab is also broken that it further increases costs on the side of the vendors), and went the route of "asking" money from their top customers through equity and research deals. Probably a good route, I can't say, but that's not something all players can do at the same time (otherwise the chipmakers will end up funding ALL research, and that would kind of defeat the outsourcing on non-core competencies).

So it is indeed a cost issue, compounded by the broken model you described. In your own estimation, what would be a more ideal solution to remedy this broken model and place more or less the vendors and fabs at parity when it comes to their negotiations?
 

seitur

Senior member
Jul 12, 2013
383
1
81
This is HUGE. Cannot understate the impact this has on the industry. I'm actually at quite a loss for words at the moment.
I don't really know anything about tooling industry. So I have a question?

How does it look? I guess from your reaction that those two are biggest players that control most of market? Are there any other significant players in this industry?

What I am asking is basically short note / explanation how tooling industry looks if that's not a problem.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
I don't really know anything about tooling industry. So I have a question?

How does it look? I guess from your reaction that those two are biggest players that control most of market? Are there any other significant players in this industry?

What I am asking is basically short note / explanation how tooling industry looks if that's not a problem.

I'm trying to think of an analogy that you would be able to relate to...

Imagine if GloFo, Samsung, and TSMC all merged.

Now imagine if you were a fabless company. Your options for advanced CMOS logic nodes just got a wee bit limited.

Might be good because it means the combined revenue and combined R&D of all three companies would lead to better/faster/cheaper process nodes in the future (versus wasting 3x the R&D budget re-inventing the same wheel three times over, independently at each foundry)...might be bad because now all your eggs are in one basket and if the foundry management makes a seriously bad decision then your fabless business could be quickly bankrupt and history.


So it is indeed a cost issue, compounded by the broken model you described. In your own estimation, what would be a more ideal solution to remedy this broken model and place more or less the vendors and fabs at parity when it comes to their negotiations?

The solution is to put the word "joint" back into the phrase "joint development project" (aka a JDP).

There was a time when bonafide JDP's actually took place, there was coordination and cooperation on both sides to see a project to success from start to finish. But that has been some 20yrs since upper management (execs) supported that kind of long-range thinking.

It fell out of vogue because it came to be viewed as anti-competitive. Tell a tool vendor that you are going to work side-by-side for four years jointly developing a tool, after which you'll then order 20 or so more for production volumes in the fabs, and the executive management of that tool vendor will see an opportunity to cut costs and reduce headcount because they know the IDM has no choice but to pick up the slack or risk having a delay to releasing their node to production (for lack of having a mature production-worthy toolset available).

(edit: this above is the equivalent of the "moral hazard" argument applied recently to government bailouts)

I also had the unfortunate miserable position of being on the other side of that coin, working with a tool vendor who was willing to throw tons of cash at the JDP but my executive management had zero interest in paying in as little as 5% of the project costs.

People make it work (the joint part, the cooperation) and people make it not work (the selfishness and "not my problem" attitude).

In the end I see the merger as a requirement of TEL and AMAT's execs to safeguard their company's from the attitudes and realities of how IDMs and foundries use the tool vendors to subsidize their own node development costs.

The tool vendors have been left with no choice but to maneuver themselves such that they have the upper-hand. Who can blame them?
 
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MisterMac

Senior member
Sep 16, 2011
777
0
0
Does Intel uses AMAT \ TEL or ASML Exclusively?

And if they do use them- Intel being Intel wouldn't they want to fight it as much as TSMC\Samsung and have some clout in getting the deal to die?
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
Does Intel uses AMAT \ TEL or ASML Exclusively?

And if they do use them- Intel being Intel wouldn't they want to fight it as much as TSMC\Samsung and have some clout in getting the deal to die?

I doubt there is a single IDM/foundry that wants this deal to go through.

Neither TEL nor AMAT are at that point on the revenue curve where they are in jeopardy of going bankrupt or no longer capable of funding future tool development (1x nm nodes or 450mm platforms).

This is really about creating a massive conglomerate that can functionally operate as a monopoly when it comes to negotiations.

Good news for AMAT and TEL, and their shareholders; not good news for pretty much everyone else (consumers included).
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,118
126
Could the industry end up like the "gold rush"? Ie. the tool vendors make the most profits, while the chipmakers/miners do most of the work?
 

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
39
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Could the industry end up like the "gold rush"? Ie. the tool vendors make the most profits, while the chipmakers/miners do most of the work?

Intel would just outright acquire a tool vender before that future came to pass.

It would really have more of an impact on everyone who is not TSMC and Intel.
 
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