aquarium cycling time?

[xyyz]

i have a moderately planted 29 gallon freshwater tank. i established it about a month ago.

the problem is the tank doesn't seem anywhere near a complete cycle.

the ammonia levels started off around 2ppm. fortunately, almost all of it was NH4 since the pH was so low. soon after, the nitrite levels started to shoot up to around 2-4ppm. to deal with both problems, i started dosing API's Stress Coat. after i was told this product agitated the scales of the fish to produce the slime coat, i stopped and started using amquel+ instead. i also started adding Seachem's Stability to prime the filter.

i've almost run through my 3rd bottle of amquel+ and still no signs that the tank has cycled yet. the Stability bottle is about half empty too. everyday requires a 15% water change as well. i've also reduced the quantity of food. the poor fish get a scant portion of food 2x a day. they eat everything.

i think i have enough surface area for the colonies. the tank has lots of plants and 3 medium piences of mopani driftwood. the filtering is done using a 170gph powerhead with a large sponge filter, and a penguin biowheel 350 filter.

i don't have too many fish. i have 1 full grown angelfish, 3 medium sized angelfish, 1 large golden killie, 3 medium sized golden killies, 1 full grown opaline gourami, and a small discus.

currently the pH is around 7 which is going to cause the NH4 to start turning in to NH3. the temp ranges around 80-86F which is going to cause more NH3. the nitrites keep in check for about a day. i dose amquel+ in the AM when the nitrites peak, and add a bit when i do a water chage. this is when i add the Stability as well. it takes about 30 mins for the amquel+ to neutrize the nitrites.

i know, i should have done a fishless tank cycle, but i didn't know too much when i started the tank. it's funny how much you learn when in a crisis.

what can i do to speed up the cycle? is there another product besides Seachem's Stability that would do a better job of getting things going?

 

[dawp]

It can take upto 6 mo. to a year for a tank to stablize but i never had to change water every day or use amquel+. I currently have a 37 gal. cube set up as a saltwater with 2 pecula(sp) clownfish and a blue leg hermit crab and my daughter has a tank setup for fresh with a turtle and some uneaten feeder fish. There is a product to add benificial bacteria tho don't remember the name. also take a look at this. i havent read through it yet but looks to be quite informative.

 

[xyyz]

i'm at the stage in the nitrogen cycle where the ammonia and nitrites are starting to peak, or i really hope so, 'cause i worry about the toll the stuff will take on the fish.

see if you can remember the name of the product. i'll give it a shot.

 

[dawp]

just keep an eye ont the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels and do water changes when the levels spike.

i was reading the link in my prev. post and that product isn't recommended for an established tank.

the best thing to do is to frequent a fish store with a knowlagable staff. the best places i find are ones that specialize in fish.

I assume that you have a test kit and test daily.

that link stated that if you do changes frequently it prolongs the cycle

plus the woman who wrote the guide in my link allows you to email her for questions.

most of my experence has been with saltwater. but it is simmular to fresh except that you can't have as many fish in the same size tank.

 

[xyyz]

this tank is far from established unfortunately.

it's hard to find someone knowledgeable who gives good advice. my local fish pet store guy sold me Seachem's Acid Buffer, which completely ravaged my water chemistry. only now is it starting to get back to normal.

i emailed the author of the article, and gave her a detailed workup of my sittuation. i hope she responds.

 

[dawp]

I find the less you add, the better it turns out, sounds like that pet store guy gave you bad advice just to sell another product. With live plants, the most important thing is to have something for them to eat, such as fish droppings. I never had any luck tho with plants as the fish i select tend to be hard on them. and I constantly have algea anyways. plus the fish tend to eat the plants.

here's a forum on planted aquariums i came across when i did a search on that acid buffer:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/

 

[rahul]

a) Please do not use amquel or any other ammonia binding product while cycling a tank. All it does is reduce the amount of food available for the good bacteria in the tank. Amquel/ ChlorAm-X/whatever do not help cycle the tank. They simply bind the ammonia so it does not affect the fish.

b) Do not change the water while cycling.

c) You have too many fish for the tank at this stage. If possible, return everything except the killes to the store. Discus are happier in the company of their own kind anyway.

d) Cut down feeding to 1 small feeding every other day. The fish will be fine. By small, I mean something like 2 pellets per fish.

e) Wait 6-8 weeks, which is how long it typically takes to cycle a tank, before messing with it again.

If you really feel the need to use something to speed up cycling, use something like Zym-Bac, Cycle etc. I do not think they really are much help, though.

 

[xyyz]

i know water changes slow down the cycling, but not changing the water with high nitrites and ammonia, when you have fish in the tank, isn't it a bad thing?

the discuss will probably go back. it's a very pugnacious bastard. 10 minutes into the tank and he took over HALF of it.

i so wish i knew what i know now. fishless tank cycling is the way to go.

 

[BoomerD]

The best & easiest way to start a tank cycling is with a piece of shrimp from the grocery store. Just toss it in the tank (in a piece of old panty hose or netting to make removal easier) and let nature take its course. If your wife/roommates/dog, etc don't kick you out as it starts to rot and stink up the house, the shrimp provides an excellent source of ammonia to get the cycle kicked off.

Amquel only retards the cycle. The more you use it, the longer it takes to get the cycle going.

The most important thing to learn with keeping aquariums is patience. Only the BAD things happen quickly.

 

[Old Hippie]

There was one brand of stuff with live bacteria that cycled quickly....but I don't remember the name.

It had to be refrigerated or the bacteria would die.



Lemme get the washing started, and I'll try to find the name.


Here it is. Bio-Spira was the stuff.

I set up my 72BF @ 3yrs ago, and while I did the fishless cycle, many used that stuff with positive results. It was hard to get ahold of, and I'm pretty sure it had to be refrigerated.

It took @ 60 days to cycle my tank with ammonia.

 

[Old Hippie]

Originally posted by: rahul
a) Please do not use amquel or any other ammonia binding product while cycling a tank. All it does is reduce the amount of food available for the good bacteria in the tank. Amquel/ ChlorAm-X/whatever do not help cycle the tank. They simply bind the ammonia so it does not affect the fish.

b) Do not change the water while cycling.

c) You have too many fish for the tank at this stage. If possible, return everything except the killes to the store. Discus are happier in the company of their own kind anyway.

d) Cut down feeding to 1 small feeding every other day. The fish will be fine. By small, I mean something like 2 pellets per fish.

e) Wait 6-8 weeks, which is how long it typically takes to cycle a tank, before messing with it again.

If you really feel the need to use something to speed up cycling, use something like Zym-Bac, Cycle etc. I do not think they really are much help, though.

xyyz, Rahul has given you great advice. :thumbsup:

Although it does sound like you're 1/2 way to a complete cycle, if you could find Bio Spira, it'd probably complete the cycle.

Good Luck!

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

I'll have to agree, you are way over stocked on fish.
You also need to test the water you are putting in while doing your water change. If you have a local fish store, not a petco, ect, but a store that sells RO water, go get some of that.

 

[TonyG]

Rahul pretty much hit the nail on the head. You are overstocked for a non-cycled tank, and in general I would consider that many and type of fish to be overstocked for a 29gallon tank. I would definitely return the angels and the discus for the time being, and do some research into how large they will grow and the water requirements for the fish you want to keep. The discus can be a chore in and of themselves to keep, and I am half surprised that it is still alive with the tank still cycling.
I personally have a 55 gallon planted tank, which looks very nice, but I am running CO2, high lighting, and dosing with fertilizers 2x a week. No, you don't have to do all that to keep some plants, but they really do thrive with the extra work.

Check out the Fish Geek Forums for more info.

 

[Vincent]

Just add some BIO-Spira and you'll be fine.

 

[xyyz]

the problem is getting a hold of bio-spira that hasn't expired. the stuff needs to be handled and stored well or it's about as useless, as i just found out, as the bacteria supplements on the petstore shelves.

 

[randay]

why the emphasis on cycling? is it because you are trying to keep discus? ive kept planted tanks for the last 10+ years, never really had to worry much about nitrate levels.

 

[ICRS]

Is your water basic?

 

[Howard]

Step 1) Dump a shitload of aqueous ammonia into the tank.
Step 2) Every week, test for nitrites.
Step 3) When nitrite reading is 0, add fish.

EDIT: I take that back. Aqueous ammonia might have some toxic impurities in it. Use a corpse instead.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: randay
why the emphasis on cycling? is it because you are trying to keep discus? ive kept planted tanks for the last 10+ years, never really had to worry much about nitrate levels.

Every aquarium that will contain fish needs to cycle.
The whole ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle is about much more than just nitrates, although they are the "end product" of a cycled tank.
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

I personally haven't seen any good results from the packaged bacterial products.
The manufacturers and LFS all claim miraculous results, but IMO, it's just snake oil.
Even if you do end up with a live bacterial culture, it's usually only one of the required bacteria, (usually nitrosomonas and/or nitrosococcus) but your tank also needs nitrobacter to break nitrites into nitrates.

OP, your tanks are really too small to keep discus in long term.
They can get fairly large (6-8") and need much more than a 29 gallon tank to thrive.
I'm surprised you think they're aggressive however.
Discus are about the biggest pussyfish there are.
While they are members of the cichlid family, they're just plain wimps when it comes to aggression levels. (even common angelfish are considered to be more aggressive than discus)

I kept & bred discus for about 5 years back in the late 80's-early 90's.
Beautiful fish, easily stressed and subject to a plethora of diseases and parasites.

 

[xyyz]

Originally posted by: randay
why the emphasis on cycling? is it because you are trying to keep discus? ive kept planted tanks for the last 10+ years, never really had to worry much about nitrate levels.

nitrates are okay. iirc, plants eat em up. i'm concerned about the ammonia and nitrItes. i want the tank to cycle because there are fish in there, and the tank ammonia and nitrite levels aren't good for the fish.

Originally posted by: Howard
Step 1) Dump a shitload of aqueous ammonia into the tank.
Step 2) Every week, test for nitrites.
Step 3) When nitrite reading is 0, add fish.

EDIT: I take that back. Aqueous ammonia might have some toxic impurities in it. Use a corpse instead.

i didn't know too much about fishless cycling a month back. if i did, i'd have prepped the tank two months in advance. using ammonia.

Originally posted by: ICRS
Is your water basic?

the tap water is VERY basic. it has a pH of 8.4. since the water chemistry is still a bit messy thanks to the local fish store guy, the acid buffer still keeps the pH under 7. that stuff along with the tannins released from the driftwood (oh yeah and a low kH) slowly drops the pH to around 6.

Originally posted by: BoomerD

OP, your tanks are really too small to keep discus in long term.
They can get fairly large (6-8") and need much more than a 29 gallon tank to thrive.
I'm surprised you think they're aggressive however.
Discus are about the biggest pussyfish there are.
While they are members of the cichlid family, they're just plain wimps when it comes to aggression levels. (even common angelfish are considered to be more aggressive than discus)

I kept & bred discus for about 5 years back in the late 80's-early 90's.
Beautiful fish, easily stressed and subject to a plethora of diseases and parasites.

within a few months i'm going to setup a 55 gallon tank. and then, of course, i'll get the biological filter going through fishless tank cycling.

i don't know what's going on with this discus, but it doesn't back down at all. it's pretty small too, around 1.5." 20 minutes into introducing it into my tank, it took over HALF of the aquarium. even now, it gives the larger angelfish chase, and doesn't back down when approached by the large male angelfish that's at least 3x its size.

did i do wrong by introducing it alone? i hear they outta be introduced in at least a pair or a trio. poor thing thinks it's an angelfish.

as for discus, do you have to keep them in very soft water with a low pH? can you acclimate them to harder water with higher pH's?

too bad i can't add a picture, or you'd see all of them having a "conference."