Arab League agrees to attend US backed Peace conference

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: teclis1023
All things considered, Israel has given back WAY more land than it has kept. Strange that nobody seems concerned about Syria or Lebanon's land-grabbing or mistreatment of the Palestinians.

Oh, right - I forgot, it's okay to kill Civilians as long as they're Israeli. Perhaps this is the same reason that when Palestinian rockets kill their own civilians, they blame Israel.

- Killing civilians? Did you all the sudden forget the +1000 civilians Israel killed last Summer and the hundreds of civilians dying from Israeli cluster bombs even till today?
Did I say I thought it was okay? Civilian deaths are a tragedy across the board. The biggest difference is that, unlike its enemies, Israel's military doesn't hide and operate out of civilian neighborhoods.


- Mistreatment of Palestinians? Bring me proof for your arguments... (and please don't be foolish enough to bring up Fatah Al-Islam). Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are not Lebanese citizens and therefor are not entitled to take part of the many things Lebanese citizens are legally allowed to take part of, it's sad, but Lebanon is a very small country and the integration of +600,000 Palestinians into the very sensitive and fragile Lebanese society can be of catastrophic results, plus we would be doing Israel a big favor by naturalizing the Palestinians as they would lose a lot, it's not going to happen

From Efraim Karsh "Under Israeli rule, the Palestinians also made vast progress in social welfare. Perhaps most significantly, mortality rates in the West Bank and Gaza fell by more than two-thirds between 1970 and 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 years in 1967 to 72 in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 years for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa). Israeli medical programs reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Iraq the rate is 64, in Egypt 40, in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). And under a systematic program of inoculation, childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were eradicated."

And BTW in case you forgot, these Palestinians that we are sheltering in Lebanon and you are all of the sudden concerned for, are the same Palestinians that your beloved Israel won't let go back to their own land under their right to return! The land which now hosts illegal Jewish settlers on it's premise!

- Land grabbing? What are you efing talking about? When the hell did Lebanon grab anyone's land?
As far as I know Israel "grabbed" the entirely of Southern Lebanon and the Shebaa Farms and it took a couple of decades of terror and squabbling for them to withdraw! And I am damn sure that if those suckers from Hizbollah didn't bug the sht out of them during those 2 decades, they would have been present in the South till this very day (and that's if they hadn't taken over the Karoun power generation damn too). And as far as Syria is concerned last time I checked the land grabbing balance is in Israel's favor by a whopping Golan Heights difference.

My bad, I didn't mean Lebanon, I meant Jordan.


Hey, I'm all for halting settlements and I support a Palestinian state, but I'm not stupid enough to fall for the Anti-Israel BS.

If you want to sit at the grownup table, put away the bombs and rockets.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: teclis1023
All things considered, Israel has given back WAY more land than it has kept. Strange that nobody seems concerned about Syria or Lebanon's land-grabbing or mistreatment of the Palestinians.

Oh, right - I forgot, it's okay to kill Civilians as long as they're Israeli. Perhaps this is the same reason that when Palestinian rockets kill their own civilians, they blame Israel.

- Killing civilians? Did you all the sudden forget the +1000 civilians Israel killed last Summer and the hundreds of civilians dying from Israeli cluster bombs even till today?
Did I say I thought it was okay? Civilian deaths are a tragedy across the board. The biggest difference is that, unlike its enemies, Israel's military doesn't hide and operate out of civilian neighborhoods.


- Mistreatment of Palestinians? Bring me proof for your arguments... (and please don't be foolish enough to bring up Fatah Al-Islam). Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are not Lebanese citizens and therefor are not entitled to take part of the many things Lebanese citizens are legally allowed to take part of, it's sad, but Lebanon is a very small country and the integration of +600,000 Palestinians into the very sensitive and fragile Lebanese society can be of catastrophic results, plus we would be doing Israel a big favor by naturalizing the Palestinians as they would lose a lot, it's not going to happen

From Efraim Karsh "Under Israeli rule, the Palestinians also made vast progress in social welfare. Perhaps most significantly, mortality rates in the West Bank and Gaza fell by more than two-thirds between 1970 and 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 years in 1967 to 72 in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 years for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa). Israeli medical programs reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Iraq the rate is 64, in Egypt 40, in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). And under a systematic program of inoculation, childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were eradicated."

And BTW in case you forgot, these Palestinians that we are sheltering in Lebanon and you are all of the sudden concerned for, are the same Palestinians that your beloved Israel won't let go back to their own land under their right to return! The land which now hosts illegal Jewish settlers on it's premise!

- Land grabbing? What are you efing talking about? When the hell did Lebanon grab anyone's land?
As far as I know Israel "grabbed" the entirely of Southern Lebanon and the Shebaa Farms and it took a couple of decades of terror and squabbling for them to withdraw! And I am damn sure that if those suckers from Hizbollah didn't bug the sht out of them during those 2 decades, they would have been present in the South till this very day (and that's if they hadn't taken over the Karoun power generation damn too). And as far as Syria is concerned last time I checked the land grabbing balance is in Israel's favor by a whopping Golan Heights difference.

My bad, I didn't mean Lebanon, I meant Jordan.


Hey, I'm all for halting settlements and I support a Palestinian state, but I'm not stupid enough to fall for the Anti-Israel BS.

If you want to sit at the grownup table, put away the bombs and rockets.

"If you want to sit at the grownup table"? I didn't know tables can grow...
And what bombs and rockets do you speak of? What Anti-Israel BS are you talking about?
I mean feel free to point out inconsistencies in my posts instead of just saying it's BS you know, it helps determine what you are talking about sometimes ...

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
"If you want to sit at the grownup table"? I didn't know tables can grow...
And what bombs and rockets do you speak of? What Anti-Israel BS are you talking about?
I mean feel free to point out inconsistencies in my posts instead of just saying it's BS you know, it helps determine what you are talking about sometimes ...

What bombs and rockets do I speak of? Are you serious? Suicide BOMBERS used to decimate buses and murder civilians. Qassam ROCKETS aimed at elementary schools and fired into Israel from all sides.

The Anti-Israel BS that I'm referring to is this pervasive idea, propagated by people who want the world to believe that Israel is the sole reason and cause for strife and violence in the MidEast. They write off the violence perpetrated by Arabs and Palestinians as justified, and condemn any and all attempts of Israel to defend itself. They blame Israel for the times they accidentally kill their own people. They ignore the fact that historically, the Palestinians and Arabs have passed up on more chances at peace, or at least the promise of peace, than they have tried to adhere to.

I'm no apologist for Israel, and I am unhappy with quite a few of its policies and many of the things that Israelis have done, but anyone who tries to simplify this conflict into a "it's their fault!" situation is just skirting reality.

I'm not saying it's you, DT. I'm saying that this post starts with an anti-Israel approach and just gets stronger.

 

[Lemon law]

The point being, this is just one of countless other anandtech threads on Irsaeli Palestinian issues that have reached this same lets talk about our grievacies and not your grievances stage of debate.

All these issues and more will be on the table at the actual peace conference starting tomorrow. If all sides can't do better than we have at anandtech in honestly comparing and acknowledging the various merits of each sides arguments, the peace conference will collapse in a matter of a few days. But if all sides are willing to compromise, make genuine concessions, then the peace conference can move to the negotiating stage, and something genuine and concrete may emerge in six months or so.

Its touch and go now, let allow the participants at the peace conference to do the real talking. This is partly the Condi Rice show. I for one want to give her a chance to see if she can do the delicate cat herding needed to stay credible with all sides and produce RESULTS in terms of an agreement all sides can agree to.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
"If you want to sit at the grownup table"? I didn't know tables can grow...
And what bombs and rockets do you speak of? What Anti-Israel BS are you talking about?
I mean feel free to point out inconsistencies in my posts instead of just saying it's BS you know, it helps determine what you are talking about sometimes ...

What bombs and rockets do I speak of? Are you serious? Suicide BOMBERS used to decimate buses and murder civilians. Qassam ROCKETS aimed at elementary schools and fired into Israel from all sides.

Yes I was serious, there are bombs and rockets everywhere, I wanted you to be specific.

Well I can't say I agree with their approach much, attacking civilians is never the answer, but when you are desperate and overpowered you'll do anything to try to get hope back. And for them, Israeli settlers are just as guilty as the government, when you come all the way from Europe to go live in occupied land, you are not going to get much sympathy for example. And I don't see Israel holding the moral hight ground neither, they cause much more carnage to civilians than any suicide bomber does, how it's done doesn't make a difference to me. And when the Palestinians lob missiles Israel's way everyone is up in arms about the Israeli civilians, but when Israel shoots missiles towards Palestine and hits civilians it's called "collateral". At least one party is honest about the fact that it doesn't care where their missiles land as long as they make a loud bang from a distance!

The Anti-Israel BS that I'm referring to is this pervasive idea, propagated by people who want the world to believe that Israel is the sole reason and cause for strife and violence in the MidEast. They write off the violence perpetrated by Arabs and Palestinians as justified, and condemn any and all attempts of Israel to defend itself. They blame Israel for the times they accidentally kill their own people. They ignore the fact that historically, the Palestinians and Arabs have passed up on more chances at peace, or at least the promise of peace, than they have tried to adhere to.

I'm no apologist for Israel, and I am unhappy with quite a few of its policies and many of the things that Israelis have done, but anyone who tries to simplify this conflict into a "it's their fault!" situation is just skirting reality.

I'm not saying it's you, DT. I'm saying that this post starts with an anti-Israel approach and just gets stronger.

I don't know man, when you are the country that came out of no where then you tend to get the blame for igniting the fires that have been dormant in the ashes for centuries.

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
Yes I was serious, there are bombs and rockets everywhere, I wanted you to be specific.

Okay, I was specific.

Well I can't say I agree with their approach much, attacking civilians is never the answer, but when you are desperate and overpowered you'll do anything to try to get hope back.

They've been trying to get the hope back since the 1920s, before Israel was even formed.

And for them, Israeli settlers are just as guilty as the government, when you come all the way from Europe to go live in occupied land, you are not going to get much sympathy for example.

I can understand being disgusted or angry with Settlers. Killing them is another matter all together.

And I don't see Israel holding the moral hight ground neither, they cause much more carnage to civilians than any suicide bomber does, how it's done doesn't make a difference to me. And when the Palestinians lob missiles Israel's way everyone is up in arms about the Israeli civilians, but when Israel shoots missiles towards Palestine and hits civilians it's called "collateral".

The big difference is that Israel has a specific target, and often Civilians are killed in the process. It's horrible, and I disagree with targeted assassinations; however, at least there is a stated target.

Killing civilians IS the target of suicide bombers.

I'm sure you understand that intent is a huge concept in ethics and philosophy. If I am shooting at my enemy and kill a civilians, it's a horrible tragedy. If I am aiming at civilians, it's a horrendous crime.

At least one party is honest about the fact that it doesn't care where their missiles land as long as they make a loud bang from a distance!

:roll: Do you think if Israel truly wanted to kill Palestinian civilians that there would be any left? Israel holds the power to destroy its neighbors with minimal damage to itself. It hasn't done this for a reason.

I don't know man, when you are the country that came out of no where then you tend to get the blame for igniting the fires that have been dormant in the ashes for centuries.

So when Jews were purchasing land from the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire and cultivating it into Kibbutzim, and the Palestinians decided that the best response to their new neighbors was to massacre the Orthodox Jews that had been living in Hebron for centuries....that's what you're talking about?

The origins of the nation are legally purchased tracts of land that the Jews paid dearly for. The fact of the matter is that Palestinians have been attacking Jews LONG before Israel was even a serious consideration. The Anti-Jewish attacks in the 1920s and 1930s are clear evidence of this.

 

[Vonkhan]

Originally posted by: Braznor
Magomago and DarkThinker, tell me this:

What did India get for giving away Muslims 1/3rd of its own land thereby creating Pakistan?

Did it get us peace?

Let's see, it got us:

Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam (former President & "Missile Man")
Dr. Zakir Hussain (former President)
Dr. Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed (former President)

Co. Qtr. Mstr. Havildar Abdul Hamid (KIA, PVC winner - the highest gallantry award)
Lt. Hanifuddin (one of the first officers KIA in Kargil)
Brig. Mohd. Usman (KIA, MVC)

Aziz Premji (founder of Wipro)


I could go on, but I think you get the point ...

 

[Braznor]

Originally posted by: Vonkhan

Originally posted by: Braznor
Magomago and DarkThinker, tell me this:

What did India get for giving away Muslims 1/3rd of its own land thereby creating Pakistan?

Did it get us peace?

Let's see, it got us:

Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam (former President & "Missile Man")
Dr. Zakir Hussain (former President)
Dr. Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed (former President)

Co. Qtr. Mstr. Havildar Abdul Hamid (KIA, PVC winner - the highest gallantry award)
Lt. Hanifuddin (one of the first officers KIA in Kargil)
Brig. Mohd. Usman (KIA, MVC)

Aziz Premji (founder of Wipro)


I could go on, but I think you get the point ...

Oh yes, these people are great.

But it still doesn't answer the question.

Did India get peace after partition?

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
....

I don't know man, when you are the country that came out of no where then you tend to get the blame for igniting the fires that have been dormant in the ashes for centuries.

So when Jews were purchasing land from the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire and cultivating it into Kibbutzim, and the Palestinians decided that the best response to their new neighbors was to massacre the Orthodox Jews that had been living in Hebron for centuries....that's what you're talking about?

The origins of the nation are legally purchased tracts of land that the Jews paid dearly for. The fact of the matter is that Palestinians have been attacking Jews LONG before Israel was even a serious consideration. The Anti-Jewish attacks in the 1920s and 1930s are clear evidence of this.

I don't know where you get your information, but the Ottoman Empire has always been opposed to the Zionist movement. even though they allowed Jewish pilgrims to to do their pilgrimage .
Sultan Abdel Al-Hamid said NO to Herzl's request to colonize Palestine despite the financial problems the Ottoman's were facing back then.

You might argue that towards the early 1900's the Ottoman empire allowed the WZO to purchase land in northern Palestine but that is just preposterous, the only reason why it was allowed is because the very influential Zionist lobbyists in powerful European countries that the Ottoman empire was financially indebted to started to pressure their governments to in turn pressure the Ottoman Sultans to allow the Zionist to go ahead with the purchase.

Now even if you were able to argue your way out of what I mentioned above, keep in mind one thing, the Ottomans didn't really own the land, it belonged to the people who were living there, as you know no one wished the Ottoman's upon themselves (they were invaders from Turkey after all) that's why my ancestors (including my Great Grandfather and his brother in Lebanon God have mercy on there souls) fought the Ottoman Empire till death in the final stages of it's existence in order to liberate Arab land from them. The Ottomans had no authority to give land to anyone but the owners, and that's why the European countries such as Britain and France promised to let them have their Arab lands back and ruled by Arabs once the war is over and the Ottomans are defeated. Sadly we all know what happened to the Arabs who believed that the West wanted them to be free and fought against the Ottomans for them (See Sykes-Pico and Belford Promise for your own reference). I still can't see the legality of land ownership (not the scale at least) and even if I did I can't see the legality of Israel as a country of it's own from a historical point of view at least.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Braznor
Magomago and DarkThinker, tell me this:

What did India get for giving away Muslims 1/3rd of its own land thereby creating Pakistan?

Did it get us peace?

Opposed to it. I think it the planned split was either planned REALLLLY poorly, it was intended that way. Putting two lands of Pakistan nearly 1000 miles from eachother, splitting up Punjab as if it didn't exist, purposely cutting a line through Kashmir....The British knew they were sowing the seeds for almost never ending conflict. If they couldn't control the land, then no one would...and its still true sixty plus years later.

I don't know man, when you are the country that came out of no where then you tend to get the blame for igniting the fires that have been dormant in the ashes for centuries.

So when Jews were purchasing land from the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire and cultivating it into Kibbutzim, and the Palestinians decided that the best response to their new neighbors was to massacre the Orthodox Jews that had been living in Hebron for centuries....that's what you're talking about?

The origins of the nation are legally purchased tracts of land that the Jews paid dearly for. The fact of the matter is that Palestinians have been attacking Jews LONG before Israel was even a serious consideration. The Anti-Jewish attacks in the 1920s and 1930s are clear evidence of this.

This is getting some interesting discussion so I'll bite. As you mentioned, after the turn of the century Jewish immigration into Palestine increased dramatically. This is totally supported by history - and many of them bought their own land to cultivate.

Now what happens when you place a massive group of people that is very different from the rest of the majority in the middle of them? a BACKLASH. This is predictable and can always be seen whenever a minority group begins to grow and establish more influence. This isn't something to be happy or proud of, but it ALWAYS happens and has happened in the past. That is really the cold hard facts.
Did these people have natural hatred of Jews that was cultivated since birth? Probably not - but was it a knee jerk reaction to a foreign population? Sure as hell yes...and its unfortunate for any group of people who did live there and get associated with these "new comers".

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: magomago
I'm still skeptical of the overall situation mainly because Israel has already decided post condition talks for any future gatherings, as well as inching closer to passing a bill that will not compromise any of Jersusalem. That itself will really kill any follow up situation

Despite being skeptical though - you might as well try. At the very least they probably will get a chance to tour Annapolis (is there anything worth seeing there?)

ummm do you have anything bad to say about the other side as well?

If that was a requirement on this forum you would have been shipped out long ago :roll:

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Here it is folks, hot off the presses from Yahoo news.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200...mxfTjYBzRKU85wpTes0NUE

The Arab League and Saudi Arabia agrees to attend the Rice brokered peace conference starting next Tuesday. Lots of starting strikes against already covered in other threads, but it may be safe to say, if all sides work together, it may gasp, be possible to make some actual progress. Time will tell but I was guessing that Arab Countries would largely boycott the meeting. And if Israel is willing to discuss the Golan Heights, Syria may even get on board.

My guess is still that it will depend on how serious Israel is willing to get. And that may depend on how tough Condi Rice is willing to be.

if bill "sweet-talker" clinton couldnt succed, how the heck can George "IRAQ" bush do it?

oh the irony if he actually suceeds...

bush gets to be remembered in history for bringing middle east peace.

 

[rml]

Isn't it true that the Bible had predicted that Israel will have a FALSE peace and then will be attacked before second coming of Jesus?

 

[DarkThinker]

Que in the Christian-Zionists...:music:

 

[Braznor]

Originally posted by: magomago

Opposed to it. I think it the planned split was either planned REALLLLY poorly, it was intended that way. Putting two lands of Pakistan nearly 1000 miles from eachother, splitting up Punjab as if it didn't exist, purposely cutting a line through Kashmir....The British knew they were sowing the seeds for almost never ending conflict. If they couldn't control the land, then no one would...and its still true sixty plus years later.

I have no love for the brits. But I don't see them there blowing up buses, trains, courts etc. in Urban India of today.

So in Palestine, the problem is Israel. In India, the problem is Imperial Britain?

My!

:roll: