Are democrats really better than conservatives?

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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
And when that wealth slips away from the lower half, the difficulty of that loss leads people into blaming others. A main theme against illegals is the notion that "they" are "taking" from "us". Bitter divisiveness grows under our present conditions, starved from the wealth of America. To be clear, if wealth was redistributed at 100%, EVERY SINGLE MAN, WOMAN, AND CHILD would live in a household with a net worth well over a million dollars. Every single household would have 6 figures, annually. Just a quarter of that wealth would universally END mortgages and rent payments, pay for college loans, and provide safe transport and security for all.

The gap between a quarter and where we stand now is nearly unimaginable. But I will fight to make that dream a reality.

@agent00f , I'd almost mistake that string of conversation as a stand against fixing income inequality. Throw those lines in with your apparent disdain for us speaking economic policy... The parts of the Democratic party that bother me are the ones that embrace tribalism, who surrender to hatred and madness and seek to burn the world down rather than build it up. Whose chief concern is hurting "others" and not helping all men, created equal. The American motto was once E Pluribus Unum, the True American Dream.

Maybe someday more of us will remember that. And honor it not with hollow words, but with resolute action.

Keep playing those dummy democrats, they love complying with GOP demands to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Decisive victory in Afghanistan indeed. I am betting that Trump ups the ante on Afghanistan tonight and the press and the Republicans and the Democrats suck his dick for the effort. Nothing like some good old fashioned warmongering to make everybody happy. Our longest war is Afghanistan and it is now about half controlled Al Qaeda. Well done. They aren't even bothering to give us a long term strategy anymore. Nobody apparently cares.
Afghanistan was a decisive victory, but then Bush redirected forces from there to Iraq rather than deliver the killing blow, which allowed the Taliban to regain a foothold.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
To be clear, if wealth was redistributed at 100%, EVERY SINGLE MAN, WOMAN, AND CHILD would live in a household with a net worth well over a million dollars. Every single household would have 6 figures, annually. Just a quarter of that wealth would universally END mortgages and rent payments, pay for college loans, and provide safe transport and security for all.
To be even clearer, there is no "THE" wealth. Wealth is not a "the". There is actually no distributing "IT" to everyone. The miraculous, imaginary pile of money you're imagining would simply blow away into worthless dust, because done as people imagine like this, there would simply be NO VALUE to any of it. Money is not actually a thing on its own without a multitude of factors behind it, "wealth" even less so.

I don't know why people persist with these pipe dreams, even in some "See how FAIR that would be??!!" way. It makes as much sense in reality as saying if I divided up your car into 1500 piles of parts, and passed the piles around, 1500 people would have a working automobile! Genius, right?!! Dust hands and feel really really generous without delving too much actual thought into it.

BTW if any of this pipe dream shit WERE possible, WHY on fucking earth would any nation CHOOSE to be poor? EVERY nation would simply roll in money and distribute it and make all their citizens rich. Here ya go, here's 1,000,000,000 Jackinstani Dollars! And for every citizen! Everyone is RICH!

Damn that's easy! Schools of proper finance.. BE DAMNED!
 
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bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Afghanistan was a decisive victory, but then Bush redirected forces from there to Iraq rather than deliver the killing blow, which allowed the Taliban to regain a foothold.

Decisive victory indeed, that explains why we are still there.

Define for me what victory in Afghanistan is because the politicians sure the fuck can't. For me personally, victory in Afghanistan would be defined as every American soldier out of the country.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Decisive victory indeed, that explains why we are still there.

Define for me what victory in Afghanistan is because the politicians sure the fuck can't. For me personally, victory in Afghanistan would be defined as every American soldier out of the country.

Victory for hawks means further justification for white welfare programs. These people don't a damn give about low status brown folks or else they wouldn't be bombing the shit out of them for domestic votes.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Afghanistan was a decisive victory, but then Bush redirected forces from there to Iraq rather than deliver the killing blow, which allowed the Taliban to regain a foothold.

Please. The only people who ever won a war in Afghanistan were the ones willing to kill the inhabitants & take their shit.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
I can't find where starbuck said that. It was you, not him.

He said they won in Afghanistan and I was merely illustrating why the GOP thinks that. Winning the political ammunition for false pretense with iraq is surely a victory by any stretch of the imagination.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Decisive victory indeed, that explains why we are still there.

Define for me what victory in Afghanistan is because the politicians sure the fuck can't. For me personally, victory in Afghanistan would be defined as every American soldier out of the country.
Victory meant eradication of the Taliban and the Afghani government self sufficient in maintaining the peace.

That objective was attainable. Our special operations forces and Afghani allies were able to swiftly push the Taliban into a few remote and easily contained strongholds.

Bush made the mistake of diverting much needed resources to Iraq, resources needed to finish the job. Obama inherited a mess, withdrew troops to an arbitrary timetable and was perhaps overconfident in the symbolic elimination of Bin Laden.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Victory meant eradication of the Taliban and the Afghani government self sufficient in maintaining the peace.

That objective was attainable. Our special operations forces and Afghani allies were able to swiftly push the Taliban into a few remote and easily contained strongholds.

Bush made the mistake of diverting much needed resources to Iraq, resources needed to finish the job. Obama inherited a mess, withdrew troops to an arbitrary timetable and was perhaps overconfident in the symbolic elimination of Bin Laden.

These military geniuses "believed" the same about Vietnam or Iraq, plus I guess their soviet counterparts for the same place. Or not:

If you study history, no invading force has ever truly won in Afghanistan, the graveyard of empires.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
If you study history, no invading force has ever truly won in Afghanistan, the graveyard of empires.

The above does not seem to fit with:

"Victory meant eradication of the Taliban and the Afghani government self sufficient in maintaining the peace.

That objective was attainable. Our special operations forces and Afghani allies were able to swiftly push the Taliban into a few remote and easily contained strongholds."
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Victory meant eradication of the Taliban and the Afghani government self sufficient in maintaining the peace.

That objective was attainable. Our special operations forces and Afghani allies were able to swiftly push the Taliban into a few remote and easily contained strongholds.

Bush made the mistake of diverting much needed resources to Iraq, resources needed to finish the job. Obama inherited a mess, withdrew troops to an arbitrary timetable and was perhaps overconfident in the symbolic elimination of Bin Laden.

Reminds me of the "We coulda won!" bullshit at the end of the Vietnam war. There's no reason to think Afghanistan was any more winnable for us than for the Soviets.

You're right that the Bushistas botched occupation & reconstruction right from the beginning, however. They never intended to win anything but rather to have a springboard for the invasion of Iraq where they had no exit strategy, either.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The above does not seem to fit with:

"Victory meant eradication of the Taliban and the Afghani government self sufficient in maintaining the peace.

That objective was attainable. Our special operations forces and Afghani allies were able to swiftly push the Taliban into a few remote and easily contained strongholds."
Not a contradiction. I acknowledge the historical context of Afghanistan but also believe victory was attainable had Bush not redirected strategic focus to Iraq.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,595
7,653
136
To be even clearer, there is no "THE" wealth. Wealth is not a "the". There is actually no distributing "IT" to everyone...

Senior citizens would love to hear how their social security doesn't actually exist. It would appear that instead of logic you are desperately clinging to appeal for emotion in some bid to stop yourself from thinking. Yet there are taxes today, and a $4 trillion budget today. It would appear, contrary to your protest, that money DOES exist and is already being distributed.

And the sad part is, you appeal out of some moral sense... as if to be indignant over a perceived assault against something you hold dear. What is it that you think you're fighting to protect? Will Wall Street trickle down its blessings to you some day? Funny thing, the longer this game is played... the poorer everyone becomes... the less support Wall Street has. The more the poor see through false promises. But I digress...

My stand is based entirely on economic principles. Capitalism requires consumers. But labor is being devalued. The consumers are forced to consume less, and this in turn hurts the employer, which hurts labor, etc. It is called the vicious cycle. Ending it requires protecting the consumers, ensuring a basic level of economic activity from them. You are well beyond your depth here if you liken taxation to the printing of money. A social safety net is how we divert a portion of production into economic security. With the correct numbers, it is deficit neutral. The dollar will not loose its value.

The principles already exist today, we just have to decide the extent of our effort. The bonus is my method ensures that people still want to work, if they can. They do not lose benefits. It is not an exchange of Welfare VS Work. It is Security PLUS Work, if you can find it. As automation increases there will be no doubt in economist's minds that you have lost your choice to continue with the status quo. Trickle down is over. Capitalism is reaching an inflection point as labor is devalued.

We'll be all ears for the alternative(s) to Basic Income... but if they don't feature households starting off with a $432,000 nest egg, thereby ensuring a house paid up front, education, etc... they seem rather glum and poor by comparison. Do you have any idea what an end to mortgage and rent payments would do to transform an average families budget? And if they could all afford college...

I did try to warn you that "The gap between a quarter and where we stand now is nearly unimaginable." I wasn't kidding about that, but I won't stop pushing. The faster we move to secure the economy, fewer people will be hurt by poverty. To those in need, every day counts.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,595
7,653
136
Keep playing those dummy democrats, they love complying with GOP demands to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

What, "dumb Democrats" are the ones wanting to make people's lives better? What a paragon of enlightenment you are...
Are you sure you wouldn't feel more comfortable in the Trump administration? I mean, if haters gonna hate... you'd be in good company.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,561
13,122
136
Thanks for admitting that the US should've gone into Iraq because the "experts" had the all the "information" about his WMDs

Thats straight up stupid. What is your alternative to using experts? Use nonexperts? *oh yea, Trump*.
Why use smart people when you can use immensely dumb. Gotcha.
Protip : Using an expert does not guarantee zero fault potential, but it does get you a better ratio than using stupid.
 
Reactions: Younigue

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
Senior citizens would love to hear how their social security doesn't actually exist. It would appear that instead of logic you are desperately clinging to appeal for emotion in some bid to stop yourself from thinking. Yet there are taxes today, and a $4 trillion budget today. It would appear, contrary to your protest, that money DOES exist and is already being distributed.
LOL!
It's pretty clear you haven't a CLUE what was said, hence the above nonsense.

What's funniest about this, is you just defeated a huge plank of the left that insists Soc Sec is completely paid for by those that receive it (that is, solvent) and therefore that it's never in any danger of being just a ponzi scheme. And here you come and characterize it as just one big redistribution scheme, the polar opposite of everything it was ever said to be! Hilarious!

Sorry but it's glaringly obvious you have no economic sense, which explains why you're one believing in some fantasy world 'redistrubiting wealth to everyone equally" nonsense without having a clue about how even in an alternate reality where there was a political will to attempt it, it's actually IMPOSSIBLE from a reality-based economic standpoint.

"Wealth" isn't the fantasy pile of cash with infinite value attached to it people like you imagine it to be. Wealth (on a national scale as you're spewing about) is a gazillion things- like the equity in someone's business it took them 40 years to build. Sorry, you can't 'redistribute' that. Wealth is the better mousetrap someone else invented, marketed, sells successfully for a profit. You can't 'redistribute' that. Wealth is millions of people's stock returns. You can't redistribute that. Wealth is your neighbor's (and millions of others) decades of work and intelligent financial planning. You don't get to claim or redistribute it- and positing to do so isn't even a remotely moral idea- it's just a pipedream THEFT.

You can't take Anand's success in say this website, and 'redistribute' it to every Joe Blow's blog. But that's essentially the same kind of illogic that stupid idea posits- on a vastly more ridiculous scale.

Wealth also has it's dark sides- there's billions that are just shaky on-paper 'fortunes' built around house of card schemes- the type that went tits up and caused the financial meltdown back in 2008. As tons of 'wealth' exists in an already shaky financial state as it is- the silly imagination of 'redistributing' the same house of cards and having real value suddenly materialize -literally from thin air!- is just a patently stupid idea! (Well, the whole idea is.)

You have a simple minded idea of what wealth and money are (like most people that exercise that whole idiotic "if everybody got an equal share of THE wealth then blah de blah...")

You can do that make-believe with piles of worthless paper all you want, but you can't actually 'redistribute' virtually ANYTHING that gives any of that paper actual VALUE. Just like you can't conjure gold if our currency were still tied to that.

Keep dreaming though. If you slice your sandwich up into a million crumbs you can feed a whole city. SURE.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,561
13,122
136
Highly inaccurate-

https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/19/the-europe-in-rubble-excuse/?_r=0

America's problem isn't the size of the pie but rather the way we divvy it up... Trickle down doesn't deliver.

It has always amazed me, looking towards America, leader of the free world, as an european/scandinavian it sure looks to me like we have the better end of the deal here, sure we may pay taxes at level that americans will consider 'socialist' yet we also drive the Teslas, most can be homeowners if they want to, 7 hour work days, universal healthcare, paid vacation etc. Reading about americans working two or even three jobs and living pay check to pay check and unable to afford basic healthcare, disconnected from the educational system etc... is mindboggling to me.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
LOL!


"Wealth" isn't the fantasy pile of cash with infinite value attached to it people like you imagine it to be. Wealth (on a national scale as you're spewing about) is a gazillion things- like the equity in someone's business it took them 40 years to build. Sorry, you can't 'redistribute' that. Wealth is the better mousetrap someone else invented, marketed, sells successfully for a profit. You can't 'redistribute' that. Wealth is millions of people's stock returns. You can't redistribute that. Wealth is your neighbor's (and millions of others) decades of work and intelligent financial planning. You don't get to claim or redistribute it- and positing to do so isn't even a remotely moral idea- it's just a pipedream THEFT.

But real MEANINGFUL wealth (the kind of wealth that allows you to buy the political system of an entire country and thwart the will of your citizens) usually comes about when you strip the humanity from the people around you.

I will give one example from one company in one industry.

Martin Shkreli, the CEO of Turing, essentially bought up this old drug and jacked up the price of it overnight 5500% of an increase, and seemingly for no reason.

This drug has been used for decades, and it's used to treat parasitic infection. It's used in HIV patients to protect their central nervous system. It's not a top seller, but it was a common drug, it was used. It only, at the time, cost $13.50 a pill. Then, Turing steps in and they buy it, and that price jumps to $750 a pill virtually overnight, with no improvement. It's like taking a car that's 15 years old and then saying, "You know what, you have to buy this 15-year-old car for more than it cost brand new." It made no sense. From a healthcare perspective, it made no sense.

The only creative idea this POS had was to make an existing AFFORDABLE life saving drug hideously expensive so that those dependent on it TO FUCKING LIVE would need to bankrupt themselves to stay on it. All the profits for this hideous maneuver went to this single evil human being and all the costs went to the sick and dying.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
No, starbuck is right that they won more white welfare money.

He said they won in Afghanistan and I was merely illustrating why the GOP thinks that. Winning the political ammunition for false pretense with iraq is surely a victory by any stretch of the imagination.

He said we could have won & you injected your usual projection of domestic racist motives. You fail to show that the defense industry follows racist HR practices.
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
You can do that make-believe with piles of worthless paper all you want, but you can't actually 'redistribute' virtually ANYTHING that gives any of that paper actual VALUE. Just like you can't conjure gold if our currency were still tied to that.

Most of the things you mentioned do not give that wealth value, it is just a way of capturing the value that other people generate. Value is built on labor, the creation of something, but labor has been devalued to the point that it is almost worthless because of all the middle-men that gets the value before the actual value creator does. We have separated wealth and value to the point that it is really close to being nothing more than what the government decides it is. If we were to assign real value to wealth it would mostly be in the hands of those that create something, not those that move money around or finance other peoples creation. Right now in America if you want to have wealth that has real value you need to stop trying to create anything and start looking for ways to take it from those that do. There is almost no way to generate wealth through work anymore and that is the problem.
 
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