are manuals becoming irrelevant?

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StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
i live in Belgium and slushboxes are probably less then 5% of the market, people just don't like them. I don't understand the stuck in traffic argument. I never heard someone complain here about his legs because of using a manual in traffic jams, must be an American thing i guess ....
I think people spend longer in cars here, though, too.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
126
Becoming? They have a less than 10% sales rate. And if you exclude the sports car market I bet that number drops to 1% of sales. I'd say they are already irrelevant.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
I love manual transmissions.

I will never buy a car with automatic, unless it will be an electric car.

Edit: It is however a United States only "thing". I think that it has something to do with an overall effort to make the US folks fat, lazy, stupid, and corn feed.

 
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PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,582
162
106
I will never buy a car with automatic, unless it will be an electric car.

Edit: It is however a United States "thing". I think that it has something to do with an overall effort to make the US folks fat, lazy, stupid, and corn feed.


I actually don't think it has anything to do with fat, lazy, stupid, and cord fed. I love my manual transmissions, but I blame the lack of manuals on different factors:

1) We have cheap gas. While this is no longer the case, manuals historically resulted in better gas mileage which has been a sticking point in other parts of the world. Here, there has been no such pressure to get a manual over an automatic.
2) Automatics were marketed as "luxury" by detroit for many years. Talk to anyone in their 50-80's. There impression is that a Lincoln, Buick or Cadillac with a floaty suspension and smooth automatic transmission is the definition of luxury.
3) We have less fun roads to drive. Go drive B roads in England and then drive roads in most of America's Midwest. It is insanely boring (although beautiful) driving through most of America's roads...don't get me wrong...there are amazing roads in America...but most peoples daily grind is boring and traffic heavy. Even long trips are on boring (dynamically), low-speed highways. If the roads were more engaging, people would likely enjoy driving and appreciate their driving tools more.
4) Partially because of 3, most Americans look at cars as appliances. This obviously does not apply to most people reading a car forum...but if you go talk to random people you meet, all they want it something that gets them from A to B reliably...and looks "cool" doing it. They don't care about the mechanics of the vehicle or actual capabilities (only care about perceived capabilities...thus the Crossover).
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,976
3
71
I agree with Prickley Pete, I think he summed it up nicely. But I can't help feeling that some peeps in this country are too dull to apply common sense and look beyond marketing.
 

Doggiedog

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
12,780
5
81
I drive into NYC all of the time.

Of course I get stuck in traffic but I don't mind having my manual. I'm quite used to it. Inclines don't bother me either. My car has hill assist which locks the brakes for a few seconds until you start moving forward. Not that I need it but it's a nice convenience. Also, most modern clutches are quite light. I remember driving those old Porsches with heavy clutches where you almost had to get up from your seat to push down on them. I can't imagine driving those things in traffic but my car doesn't tire me at all.

The only thing that concerns me about having a manual is getting injured. I played volleyball a lot and I worry if I get a sprain or hurt my leg/knee that I won't be able to drive.
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
2
81
If a company had the balls to release a cheap preformance car in the vien of the older muscle cars, the gas mileage would be even more amazing, acceleration would be phenominal, and they wouldn't handle like pigs. Plus they wouldn't have brakes that sucked balls.

Why does it have to be a "muscle car?"

Let's compare a turbo import (I drive a Mazdaspeed 6, other possibilities are WRX, 'Speed 3, GTI or even the domestic Cobalt) to somewhat older "muscle" cars. I used to drive a Mustang GT (before my Contour SVT and now MS6). All the turbo cars I've listed can out-handle, out-brake, out-accelerate the Mustang I drove, all while getting better gas mileage.

Of course the Mustang only needed regular and not premium fuel, plus the engine rumbled nicely. :\
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
I actually don't think it has anything to do with fat, lazy, stupid, and cord fed. I love my manual transmissions, but I blame the lack of manuals on different factors:

1) We have cheap gas. While this is no longer the case, manuals historically resulted in better gas mileage which has been a sticking point in other parts of the world. Here, there has been no such pressure to get a manual over an automatic.
2) Automatics were marketed as "luxury" by detroit for many years. Talk to anyone in their 50-80's. There impression is that a Lincoln, Buick or Cadillac with a floaty suspension and smooth automatic transmission is the definition of luxury.
3) We have less fun roads to drive. Go drive B roads in England and then drive roads in most of America's Midwest. It is insanely boring (although beautiful) driving through most of America's roads...don't get me wrong...there are amazing roads in America...but most peoples daily grind is boring and traffic heavy. Even long trips are on boring (dynamically), low-speed highways. If the roads were more engaging, people would likely enjoy driving and appreciate their driving tools more.
4) Partially because of 3, most Americans look at cars as appliances. This obviously does not apply to most people reading a car forum...but if you go talk to random people you meet, all they want it something that gets them from A to B reliably...and looks "cool" doing it. They don't care about the mechanics of the vehicle or actual capabilities (only care about perceived capabilities...thus the Crossover).

1. Fine, then add wasteful to the list.
2. For a long time (up until just recently) automatics were: More expensive, less economical, and more difficult to fix (auto trans job STARTS at $1500.00 these days). As such auto transmissions were a no-no in other parts of the world.
If anyone could summarize the auto transmission tech of the 50s, 60s, and 70s, it very well COULD be a term of a wasteful technology for the lazy (aka "luxury").
3. The roads are no that much different from the roads in South America or Asia for example. Also, when you driving on a boring freeway with a manual, you just leave the top gear on and cruse. You don't have to do anything with manny tranny when drving at 70 mph for 2 hr straight. As a matter of fact, you can get even cruise control for the manual...

4. Ignorant society with money.

So, there is an active effort going on to make the US Society fat, lazy, stupid, wasteful, and ignorant...

P.S. I am an American and I love living in here, but "we" are not perfect.

P.S. 2 What amazes me even more is US auto "experts" telling the stories of the "fall of the manual transmission" while not realizing the fact that the rest of the world is happily stuck with the stick.
 
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EightySix Four

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2004
5,122
52
91
1. Fine, then add wasteful to the list.
2. For a long time (up until just recently) automatics were: More expensive, less economical, and more difficult to fix (auto trans job STARTS at $1500.00 these days). As such auto transmissions were a no-no in other parts of the world.
If anyone could summarize the auto transmission tech of the 50s, 60s, and 70s, it very well COULD be a term of a wasteful technology for the lazy (aka "luxury").
3. The roads are no that much different from the roads in South America or Asia for example. Also, when you driving on a boring freeway with a manual, you just leave the top gear on and cruse. You don't have to do anything with manny tranny when drving at 70 mph for 2 hr straight. As a matter of fact, you can get even cruise control for the manual...

4. Ignorant society with money.

So, there is an active effort going on to make the US Society fat, lazy, stupid, wasteful, and ignorant...

P.S. I am an American and I love living in here, but "we" are not perfect.

P.S. 2 What amazes me even more is US auto "experts" telling the stories of the "fall of the manual transmission" while not realizing the fact that the rest of the world is happily stuck with the stick.

1. How is it wasteful exactly?

2. And we had the money to pay for the expense and were willing to do so for the luxury.

3. First, they are very different. The general populous in America uses cars on a day to day basis, this is not so in South America and Asia. Second, refer to number one, we have the ability to afford that "luxury." How many people drive to work everyday at 70mph for 2 hours straight? That's what I thought, a large portion are in bumper to bumper traffic everyday.

4. Not really sure how the choice to drive a automatic makes someone "ignorant."

P.S. No shit

P.P.S. The manual transmission is falling in America and in sports cars the world over DSGs (Ferrari, Lamborghini [next gen], GT-R, Veyron, etc.) are taking their place.

Having a different preference than you /= ignorant, and as I stated earlier, I drive a small stick sports car and wouldn't have it any other way in that car.
 
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dud

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,635
73
91
I currently have three (3) vehicles and only ONE is an automatic (Lexus never made the SC400 with a manual). Both my wife'sCivic and my Frontier are both manual. I will avoid an auto as much as possible in the future.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
126
Just a question.....

But do any manual transmission drivers use cruise control?
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,976
3
71
Yes, even my '99 Mustang manual has that. I never really use it though
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
Autos are boring IMHO. Sure, a lot of supercars are becoming auto as well, but those are mostly supercars, not daily drivers. A F1 driver is more concerned about keeping traction and winning the race instead of manually shifting. The computer can do the shift in a split-second compared to a slower shift by a person. This doesn't mean the manual is irrelevant at all.

I don't want a CVT and I don't want a auto. I want the ability to hypermile (if I feel like it) or push the car with a high RPM. Take a standard car with under 400HP, and a MT will almost always be best, in my opinion.
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
Just a question.....

But do any manual transmission drivers use cruise control?

Yup. Personally, I only use it when on longer trips when there is hardly anyone on the road. It also works as a "speed deterrent" for me too - when the posted speed limit is 50-55 and I don't want to get myself in trouble.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
fucking hypermiling with a perfomance car lolz.

Anyway. The current HIGH END automatics shift just like a manual with the clutch work being an electronic process and instantaneous. Most have more than one clutch to keep RPMS up.

Some of the best drivers on the track have basically signed off on this as the future and it's better.

The problem is even with those thinking they have higher end cars ($40-60k) you are not getting this state of the art deal in most.

I think the EVO X is up there in shifting ability....it was one of the EVO's anyway that some driver was really impressed with in the gear swapping dept.
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
fucking hypermiling with a perfomance car lolz.

Anyway. The current HIGH END automatics shift just like a manual with the clutch work being an electronic process and instantaneous. Most have more than one clutch to keep RPMS up.

Some of the best drivers on the track have basically signed off on this as the future and it's better.

The problem is even with those thinking they have higher end cars ($40-60k) you are not getting this state of the art deal in most.

I think the EVO X is up there in shifting ability....it was one of the EVO's anyway that some driver was really impressed with in the gear swapping dept.

For some of us, getting 25-30 MPGs qualifies as "hypermiling"

FYI - The 26MPG of the Z is somewhat of a stretch...You really have to try to drive slow to get close to this...it's more like 22-23 highway.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
126
Yes...I do it in my truck all the time.

I just find some humor in true manual transmission diehards that say that automatics are for the lazy and that they want more control and then go on to use cruise which essentially negates those arguements.

 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
1. How is it wasteful exactly?

Cheap gas + a design that is not really efficient == Wasteful. Just because we have cheap gas doesn't mean that we have right to waste it on efficient technologies - which is apparently what we were doing in toe 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's just because little 16 year old Marry Jo could not be bother with learning how to drive manual.

We have the ability to afford that "luxury."
And we had the money to pay for the expense and were willing to do so for the luxury.



At 5 bucks a gallon because of the problems with supply you'll wish that all that gasoline that was wasted, was appreciated more and conserved more.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,582
162
106
I just find some humor in true manual transmission diehards that say that automatics are for the lazy and that they want more control and then go on to use cruise which essentially negates those arguements.


Damn you...you caught me! I still am in the camp that it is not "laziness" that has turned American's toward automatics...but many other factors (as I stated in my post above). I do enjoy a manual oh so much more than an automatic...but If I'm cruising at 70MPH going down the highway in any car...I'm turning on the cruise. You're not driving anymore at that point...just steering.
 

EightySix Four

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2004
5,122
52
91
Cheap gas + a design that is not really efficient == Wasteful. Just because we have cheap gas doesn't mean that we have right to waste it on efficient technologies - which is apparently what we were doing in toe 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's just because little 16 year old Marry Jo could not be bother with learning how to drive manual.





At 5 bucks a gallon because of the problems with supply you'll wish that all that gasoline that was wasted, was appreciated more and conserved more.

So why do you continue to argue for manuals when new autos get better gas mileage?
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Until your average mechanic can service one and until they can be built as strongly as a traditional manual they will never the enthusiasts choice.

Sure get a DSG EVO, hope you don't plan for more power.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
I just find some humor in true manual transmission diehards that say that automatics are for the lazy and that they want more control and then go on to use cruise which essentially negates those arguements.


If you are driving 3hr straight on a freeway from Wisconsin to Minnesota, there is not much to control and in that case, cruise control == useful even for diehard fans of manual, however you can ALWAYS disengage it.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
126
Damn you...you caught me! I still am in the camp that it is not "laziness" that has turned American's toward automatics...but many other factors (as I stated in my post above). I do enjoy a manual oh so much more than an automatic...but If I'm cruising at 70MPH going down the highway in any car...I'm turning on the cruise. You're not driving anymore at that point...just steering.

Sorry to quote your post, wasn't meaning to infer that you were one of the beat you over the head "manuals are better durrrrrrr!!!!" kinda drivers.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
If you are driving 3hr straight on a freeway from Wisconsin to Minnesota, there is not much to control and in that case, cruise control == useful even for diehard fans of manual, however you can ALWAYS disengage it.

Indeed, using CC doesn't negate anything, top gear is top gear and if you need to downshift to pass someone at 70mph...your car sucks.
 
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