are manuals becoming irrelevant?

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exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
Maybe read the post above yours? Automatics are not bad. You can always squeeze more MPGs from an automatic as well.

You can, but not generally as much as a MT. If you take a standard AT, you have no choice what gear you are in when crusing at a consyant speed of 40mph. Take a MT, and you can choose to cruise in 4th, 5th, or 6th (if applicable) and lower your RPMs.

Triptronics get you some more flexibility, but it is ignorant to say you can do the same things with a standard AT that you can do with a standard MT.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
223
106
You can, but not generally as much as a MT. If you take a standard AT, you have no choice what gear you are in when crusing at a consyant speed of 40mph. Take a MT, and you can choose to cruise in 4th, 5th, or 6th (if applicable) and lower your RPMs.

Triptronics get you some more flexibility, but it is ignorant to say you can do the same things with a standard AT that you can do with a standard MT.

I can shift to and/or hold in any of the five gears in my truck's automatic transmission unless it needs to downshift. Basically, I can't force the engine to bog down. As you wouldn't want to do that anyway, I don't see it as a problem at all.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
I can shift to and/or hold in any of the five gears in my truck's automatic transmission unless it needs to downshift. Basically, I can't force the engine to bog down. As you wouldn't want to do that anyway, I don't see it as a problem at all.

Using engine to brake is beneficial in slippery conditions. You don't want to be doing it all the time, but doing it has saved me from many potentially dangerous situations - especially during the winter.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
That's a one-off example. I recall but can't be bothered to google that miles per year average in US is higher than in Europe. I grant that on average people in Europe drive slower though so if US average is 12k and Europe is 10 it's probably a wash.

You are correct, but it has a lot to do with a price of gasoline and overall saving mentality of the Europeans. Pay $6.00 per gallon for gas for a while - and you'll run or bike more...
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
223
106
You are correct, but it has a lot to do with a price of gasoline and overall saving mentality of the Europeans. Pay $6.00 per gallon for gas for a while - and you'll run or bike more...

Well, if I could bike to the next country in five minutes, I just might do that too.

Using engine to brake is beneficial in slippery conditions. You don't want to be doing it all the time, but doing it has saved me from many potentially dangerous situations - especially during the winter.

...

I can shift to and/or hold in any of the five gears in my truck's automatic transmission
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
Well, if I could bike to the next country in five minutes, I just might do that too.

...


Just wait...
$6.00 per gallon in the US would produce a lot of skinny people

Anyway, I hope that the discussion about auto vs manual will end soon with a rise of electric vehicles. I will convert to the auto with my first electric car...
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
223
106
Just wait...
$6.00 per gallon in the US would produce a lot of skinny people

Anyway, I hope that the discussion about auto vs manual will end soon with a rise of electric vehicles. I will convert to the auto with my first electric car...

CVT may be the way of the future.
 

Twista

Diamond Member
Jun 19, 2003
9,646
1
0
Im looking for a new sports car... and welps.. stick shift all the way!!!!!!!!!
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
223
106
Just wait...
$6.00 per gallon in the US would produce a lot of skinny people

Anyway, I hope that the discussion about auto vs manual will end soon with a rise of electric vehicles. I will convert to the auto with my first electric car...

My commute is ten miles and it was 5 degrees last night. I'm already skinny and it would just cost me way more to get to work.

I did see some dude on a bicycle on my way home. Crazy fvcker.
 

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,004
63
91
Just wait...
$6.00 per gallon in the US would produce a lot of skinny people

Anyway, I hope that the discussion about auto vs manual will end soon with a rise of electric vehicles. I will convert to the auto with my first electric car...

What do you mean you will convert to auto? 100% electric cars have no "gears". Just a gear ratio..there is no shifting.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Unless they come up with something else for my left foot and right hand to do (insert joke here) I am sticking with a manual. It's more fun, plus it takes skill to do well, so it's a challenge. I am sure computers can do a lot of things faster than humans, but I prefer to do some things myself.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
But do any manual transmission drivers use cruise control?
My last car was a 2006 Honda Civic with a manual and I used cruise all the time. On the highway, in the city, everywhere. The only time I didn't use it was on gravel, snow, or ice.

Current car is a 2010 Toyota Corolla with an automatic and the cruise is so shitty that it's just mind boggling. That Honda could maintain cruise speed on a pretty steep hill going highway speed in fifth gear. This Corolla cannot. It'll start to struggle, the speed will drop maybe 5mph then it will drop the third gear, rev the shit out of the engine, and quickly get back to cruise speed. Why can't it maintain speed in fourth gear? Because it's a Toyota. Honda > Toyota. On the up side, this slush bucket transmission gets the same gas mileage as my Honda and I can do it while smoking a cigarette.


After owning two similar cars where the most significant difference was the transmission, I think automatics are better. From a dead stop, the automatic accelerates just as fast as the manual. The only improvement I would want is to be able to prevent it from switching gears when I floor it, and many cars already have that feature. In my Honda I would keep it in fifth gear all the time and just floor it as needed, but I can't do that in my Toyota because it starts dropping gears and lurching and making tons of noise while doing essentially nothing.
 

fleabag

Banned
Oct 1, 2007
2,450
1
0
What do you mean you will convert to auto? 100% electric cars have no "gears". Just a gear ratio..there is no shifting.
That's to save on costs and increase reliability but if they wanted to improve the range of these vehicles, they'll need to put a transmission in these things or gear them so low that they suffer in the acceleration department.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
126
You are correct, but it has a lot to do with a price of gasoline and overall saving mentality of the Europeans. Pay $6.00 per gallon for gas for a while - and you'll run or bike more...

And silly me was thinking that it had something to do with drastic differences in population density.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
223
106
My last car was a 2006 Honda Civic with a manual and I used cruise all the time. On the highway, in the city, everywhere. The only time I didn't use it was on gravel, snow, or ice.

Current car is a 2010 Toyota Corolla with an automatic and the cruise is so shitty that it's just mind boggling. That Honda could maintain cruise speed on a pretty steep hill going highway speed in fifth gear. This Corolla cannot. It'll start to struggle, the speed will drop maybe 5mph then it will drop the third gear, rev the shit out of the engine, and quickly get back to cruise speed. Why can't it maintain speed in fourth gear? Because it's a Toyota. Honda > Toyota. On the up side, this slush bucket transmission gets the same gas mileage as my Honda and I can do it while smoking a cigarette.


After owning two similar cars where the most significant difference was the transmission, I think automatics are better. From a dead stop, the automatic accelerates just as fast as the manual. The only improvement I would want is to be able to prevent it from switching gears when I floor it, and many cars already have that feature. In my Honda I would keep it in fifth gear all the time and just floor it as needed, but I can't do that in my Toyota because it starts dropping gears and lurching and making tons of noise while doing essentially nothing.

I've never driven an automatic where you could force it to stay in overdrive while you floor it. Sounds like you should drive some other automatics before you pass judgement.

I use cruise in my MR2 all the time. I'm not sure I've ever had to downshift, but then again I actually have torque.

That's to save on costs and increase reliability but if they wanted to improve the range of these vehicles, they'll need to put a transmission in these things or gear them so low that they suffer in the acceleration department.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission
 

fleabag

Banned
Oct 1, 2007
2,450
1
0
I've never driven an automatic where you could force it to stay in overdrive while you floor it. Sounds like you should drive some other automatics before you pass judgement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission
A CVT suffers the same pumping losses as a conventional automatic transmission. A CVT is a step up from a conventional automatic in terms of fuel economy but still a step down from a conventional manual..

As for the forcing the transmission into overdrive while you floor it, first you have to find out the minimum MPH it takes for the transmission to get into the highest gear and lock the torque converter. To find out, accelerate slowly and watch and feel the car shift gears. The car should be in overdrive and have the torque converter locked up by 50mph. In the Volvo S60 I drive which has geartronic, if the car is shifted into 3rd gear, if I'm light on the accelerator, the torque converter will lockup at 25mph, from there I can floor it and the RPMs will rise in sync with the speedometer. 35mph, light throttle and 4th gear, torque converter will lockup, and then 50mph 5th gear, light throttle, the torque converter will lockup and once it has locked up, mashing the gas pedal will let the car accelerate without having the RPMs jump wildly in relation to the speedometer. I have to emphasize that every car has a different MPH shift point for each gear, some lower some higher.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
I've never driven an automatic where you could force it to stay in overdrive while you floor it. Sounds like you should drive some other automatics before you pass judgement.
The gear shift in a Nissan Altima looks like this:



If you move the stick to where the red circle is, the transmission will remain in that gear. My friend's Subaru Impreaza (not a wrx) has the same feature. It's a fairly standard feature on modern cars.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
The gear shift in a Nissan Altima looks like this:



If you move the stick to where the red circle is, the transmission will remain in that gear. My friend's Subaru Impreaza (not a wrx) has the same feature. It's a fairly standard feature on modern cars.

All a manual shifting automatic is, is allowing you the illusion of consideration of your input to the computer's decision making process, which it can chose to ignore whenever it wants. Put it in the red circle with a decent amount of RPM, then step on it, and watch how it upshifts right away and ignores your request to downshift back, instead of holding the gear and bouncing off the rev limiter as a manual would. Shifters such as this merely allow you to make a suggestion, they don't give the control of a manual.

Besides it's still using fluid coupling, which defeats the whole purpose of preferring a manual or SMG (clutch, solid mechanical linkage). When most people are talking about auto vs. manual, this is the biggest point. You could make a true manual shifting auto with a torque converter that would happily allow you to overrev or shift wrong, but what is the point since you now have a manual with a torque converter that still doesn't feel like a real manual?

Dual clutch sequential electro-hydraulic systems are where it's at. CVTs have their limitations, and dual clutch pedal-less automated manual transmissions have all the convenience and speed of an auto with the performance and direct control of a manual. It's a true manual when you want it, with the option to have a computer take over shifting with the flick of a button, with a variety of profiles.
 
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EightySix Four

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2004
5,122
52
91
All a manual shifting automatic is, is allowing you the illusion of consideration of your input to the computer's decision making process, which it can chose to ignore whenever it wants. Put it in the red circle with a decent amount of RPM, then step on it, and watch how it upshifts right away and ignores your request to downshift back, instead of holding the gear and bouncing off the rev limiter as a manual would. Shifters such as this merely allow you to make a suggestion, they don't give the control of a manual.

Besides it's still using fluid coupling, which defeats the whole purpose of preferring a manual or SMG (clutch, solid mechanical linkage). When most people are talking about auto vs. manual, this is the biggest point. You could make a true manual shifting auto with a torque converter that would happily allow you to overrev or shift wrong, but what is the point since you now have a manual with a torque converter that still doesn't feel like a real manual?

Dual clutch sequential electro-hydraulic systems are where it's at. CVTs have their limitations, and dual clutch pedal-less automated manual transmissions have all the convenience and speed of an auto with the performance and direct control of a manual. It's a true manual when you want it, with the option to have a computer take over shifting with the flick of a button, with a variety of profiles.

On many new transmissions this isn't necessarily true. They'll let you bounce off the rev limiter all you want and the only thing it keeps you from doing is shifting too low and running the revs up (a DSG does the same).
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Put it in the red circle with a decent amount of RPM, then step on it, and watch how it upshifts right away and ignores your request to downshift back, instead of holding the gear and bouncing off the rev limiter as a manual would. Shifters such as this merely allow you to make a suggestion, they don't give the control of a manual.
The car is making the assumption that most people are not trying to break the car.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,534
911
126
On many new transmissions this isn't necessarily true. They'll let you bounce off the rev limiter all you want and the only thing it keeps you from doing is shifting too low and running the revs up (a DSG does the same).

But they still have the same sloppy mushy shifts of an automatic transmission.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Shift behavior and shift speed and firmness can all be re-programmed (or changed out parts in the valve body). I know shift behavior is purposefully programmed to not allow you to break the car, I'm just saying people who think they have a manual if they have a +/- on their conventional automatic (read: torque converter + planetary gears) should think again, it doesn't work that way. Sorry to break it to anyone who thinks this, but you aren't going 65 mph in first gear because that's where you left the stick. Every car I've been in with pretend manual slap stick mode will continue to upshift and downshift automatically regardless of you pretending to keep it in a single gear; in other words it's fairly pointless. It will not let you redline or hit the rev limiter or behave with any semblance to a manual in factory form.

Also if you think an auto can't do hard firm shifts, you need to ride along in an old school muscle car with a shift kit that gives you whiplash and broken motor mounts with every shift. Current day transmissions are made to shift sloppy with some solenoid overlap from the factory for a reason.

The real determining factor and the distinction people are making when they talk manual vs. automatic is solid vs. fluid coupling between the engine and transmission (and to a lesser extent, straight gear layouts and synchros vs. planetary gear sets and brake bands). This is why an automatic with "manual mode" is still referred to as an automatic by everybody, while a dual clutch SMG which is also fully automatic is still referred to as a "manual" even though it isn't (because it's a manual style gearbox layout with shift forks and such).
 
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