Are there still any hopeless romantics who support the bailout?

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: craftech

Originally posted by: sandorski
The Government will need to crack down before continuing Bailouts. I find it exceedingly difficult to believe GM can't Restructure to a viable Company. Cut every Vehicle that doesn't turn a Profit, nothing is sacred at this time, even Cadillac and Corvette needs to be chopped if not turning a Profit. Racing Teams are a Luxury, cut. Nix all Duplicate Models, mothball some subsidiaries. Focus on fewer more Mainstream vehicles.

The big problem with all that though are the Legacy costs, Healthcare and Retirement. The best Bailout might be to simply take on those obligations. Perhaps only temporarily, but at least that much.

There are no calls for AIG to restructure, or any of the other lending institutions etc. Only GM because it involves labor unions. The corporate news media spent most of their efforts distorting and lying about union wages for the Republicans and obsessing over it for them just to help them possibly bust the unions. The LOAN to GM became a national obsession as a result of the trained pets Americans have become thanks to our news media.

Financial Institutions and Auto Companies are very different. Change for one(Financials) is rather simple, change for the other(Auto Corp) is rather complex and difficult.

 

[craftech]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: craftech

Originally posted by: sandorski
The Government will need to crack down before continuing Bailouts. I find it exceedingly difficult to believe GM can't Restructure to a viable Company. Cut every Vehicle that doesn't turn a Profit, nothing is sacred at this time, even Cadillac and Corvette needs to be chopped if not turning a Profit. Racing Teams are a Luxury, cut. Nix all Duplicate Models, mothball some subsidiaries. Focus on fewer more Mainstream vehicles.

The big problem with all that though are the Legacy costs, Healthcare and Retirement. The best Bailout might be to simply take on those obligations. Perhaps only temporarily, but at least that much.

There are no calls for AIG to restructure, or any of the other lending institutions etc. Only GM because it involves labor unions. The corporate news media spent most of their efforts distorting and lying about union wages for the Republicans and obsessing over it for them just to help them possibly bust the unions. The LOAN to GM became a national obsession as a result of the trained pets Americans have become thanks to our news media.

Financial Institutions and Auto Companies are very different. Change for one(Financials) is rather simple, change for the other(Auto Corp) is rather complex and difficult.

Still, the Republicans and their corporate news media aren't calling for a restructuring of financial institutions. Neither did Bush. Just the Auto Companies for a lousy "loan" that was less than the amount they asked for. No strings attached for the lending institutions in addition to what they were given directly without public knowledge (or reporting) thereof. Breaking a union is what the GM "controversy" was and is about. That is why the cable news networks are more than happy to spread the lies endlessly regarding the "loan" and US auto workers purported salaries.

 

[Kwatt]

Originally posted by: craftech


There are no calls for AIG to restructure, or any of the other lending institutions etc. Only GM because it involves labor unions. The corporate news media spent most of their efforts distorting and lying about union wages for the Republicans and obsessing over it for them just to help them possibly bust the unions. The LOAN to GM became a national obsession as a result of the trained pets Americans have become thanks to our news media.

While I am still mostly for the loans to auto makers and the gifts to the financial industry.

I am starting to think maybe all of them should be allowed to fail.

The catastrophic effects are not going to be any less 5,10,20 or 100 years from now. We may not be around for it but we just pass on. Some legacy to live with.

I do not believe that artificially supporting a PROVEN non-viable entity is sustainable.
While the auto industry is apparently trying to make changes.
The financial industry appears to be in a same old - same old state of mind. Why not?
The tax dollars given to them was supposed to free up credit if anything it looks like it is having an opposite effect.
They are to big to be allowed to fail and they know this it is repeated every time the subject comes up anywhere.
The financial industry Mantra is We Are To Big To FAIL! Give Us More


I propose that anything that is to big to fail be self supporting not on Life Support. Like a parasite they consumed all the nutrients (equity) in their host and now want to consume the nutrients of the fetus.

If you believe in Creationism and they should be saved God will save them. If you believe in evolution give Darwinism a chance....








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[craftech]

Originally posted by: Kwatt

Originally posted by: craftech


There are no calls for AIG to restructure, or any of the other lending institutions etc. Only GM because it involves labor unions. The corporate news media spent most of their efforts distorting and lying about union wages for the Republicans and obsessing over it for them just to help them possibly bust the unions. The LOAN to GM became a national obsession as a result of the trained pets Americans have become thanks to our news media.

While I am still mostly for the loans to auto makers and the gifts to the financial industry.

I am starting to think maybe all of them should be allowed to fail.

The catastrophic effects are not going to be any less 5,10,20 or 100 years from now. We may not be around for it but we just pass on. Some legacy to live with.

I do not believe that artificially supporting a PROVEN non-viable entity is sustainable.
While the auto industry is apparently trying to make changes.
The financial industry appears to be in a same old - same old state of mind. Why not?
The tax dollars given to them was supposed to free up credit if anything it looks like it is having an opposite effect.
They are to big to be allowed to fail and they know this it is repeated every time the subject comes up anywhere.
The financial industry Mantra is We Are To Big To FAIL! Give Us More


I propose that anything that is to big to fail be self supporting not on Life Support. Like a parasite they consumed all the nutrients (equity) in their host and now want to consume the nutrients of the fetus.

If you believe in Creationism and they should be saved God will save them. If you believe in evolution give Darwinism a chance....








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It was clear from the Congressional public hearings on TARP (covered by C-Span live but covered up by the Corporate News Media channels) that some of the first half of the TARP money was used to fund mergers encouraged by the Bush Administration thereby putting more people out of work and creating larger institutions too big to fail.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
These, 'I have the economic issues figured out' threads look to me like attempts to manage fear, much like when we replay and replay some traumatic event in our head, compulsively. I sense a need to be in control and the horrible fear that our fate is out of our hands. The beauty of say, Islam, is the notion that all that happens is the will of God and that a good man has nothing to fear, in this life, or the next. The wind that blows, the sun that warms my skin, the birds that land in my yard are all free and don't care about the economy and I am rich beyond measure.

Does this differ from your constant "I have you all figured out" posts?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
These, 'I have the economic issues figured out' threads look to me like attempts to manage fear, much like when we replay and replay some traumatic event in our head, compulsively. I sense a need to be in control and the horrible fear that our fate is out of our hands. The beauty of say, Islam, is the notion that all that happens is the will of God and that a good man has nothing to fear, in this life, or the next. The wind that blows, the sun that warms my skin, the birds that land in my yard are all free and don't care about the economy and I am rich beyond measure.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
These, 'I have the economic issues figured out' threads look to me like attempts to manage fear, much like when we replay and replay some traumatic event in our head, compulsively. I sense a need to be in control and the horrible fear that our fate is out of our hands. The beauty of say, Islam, is the notion that all that happens is the will of God and that a good man has nothing to fear, in this life, or the next. The wind that blows, the sun that warms my skin, the birds that land in my yard are all free and don't care about the economy and I am rich beyond measure.

If that's all you need to be rich, then why do you support welfare? All those poor people should just be happy with their birds and sun.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: chess9
Well Red, my fear, and the fear of many, is that we will bail them out, and bail them out, and bail them out, and they will still fail. This strikes many as the likely scenario, given the quislings who work on Capitol Hill and the little economic drama unfolding before us.

-Robert

We have an example in the past where bailing out a Car Company actually worked with Chrysler. Hey I wish we could let them fail and not be worse off for it than if we kept feeding them money until they became self sufficient. I wish we could let all the banks, INS companies and every other financial backbone of our economy fail instead of giving them money but the domino effect of doing that would be catastrophic. If we let that happen many who think their livelihoods are recession/depression proof might find out they are mistaken.

I know, but big pain now, or catastrophic pain later when they finally fail? The sooner many of these companies are forced into bankruptcy, the sooner they start to recover. The airlines use bankruptcy regularly and have recovered, more or less. Chrysler's situation was unique and very very controversial. Also, they were one company. We are now bailing out the banks, AIG, and the auto manufacturers all at the same time. The impact of all that gifting will ultimately bring down everything, or that's my fear. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe all the other nations will fail, and only the USA will again be left standing? It's possible...but unlikely in my view.

-Robert

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
These, 'I have the economic issues figured out' threads look to me like attempts to manage fear, much like when we replay and replay some traumatic event in our head, compulsively. I sense a need to be in control and the horrible fear that our fate is out of our hands. The beauty of say, Islam, is the notion that all that happens is the will of God and that a good man has nothing to fear, in this life, or the next. The wind that blows, the sun that warms my skin, the birds that land in my yard are all free and don't care about the economy and I am rich beyond measure.

These issues matter only if you think they matter. Most of this stuff is not going to kill anyone, unless you can't afford your shots. No one will contract polio because a hedge fund failed. And even if we go to zero, and have to start all over again, it can be done and will be done.

I fear nuclear war much more than financial meltdown.

-Robert

 

[StageLeft]

We are now bailing out the banks, AIG, and the auto manufacturers all at the same time. The impact of all that gifting will ultimately bring down everything, or that's my fear. I hope I'm wrong.

Apparently the stock market doesn't think so.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: chess9
Well Red, my fear, and the fear of many, is that we will bail them out, and bail them out, and bail them out, and they will still fail. This strikes many as the likely scenario, given the quislings who work on Capitol Hill and the little economic drama unfolding before us.

-Robert

We have an example in the past where bailing out a Car Company actually worked with Chrysler. Hey I wish we could let them fail and not be worse off for it than if we kept feeding them money until they became self sufficient. I wish we could let all the banks, INS companies and every other financial backbone of our economy fail instead of giving them money but the domino effect of doing that would be catastrophic. If we let that happen many who think their livelihoods are recession/depression proof might find out they are mistaken.

I know, but big pain now, or catastrophic pain later when they finally fail? The sooner many of these companies are forced into bankruptcy, the sooner they start to recover. The airlines use bankruptcy regularly and have recovered, more or less. Chrysler's situation was unique and very very controversial. Also, they were one company. We are now bailing out the banks, AIG, and the auto manufacturers all at the same time. The impact of all that gifting will ultimately bring down everything, or that's my fear. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe all the other nations will fail, and only the USA will again be left standing? It's possible...but unlikely in my view.

-Robert

The constant comparison between an airline bankruptcy and an auto maker bankruptcy needs to stop being made. We have a number of airlines that survived bankruptcy because their business models and the services they provide are fundamentally different from the auto makers in almost every conceivable fashion.

A regular Chapter 11 filing is impossible for the Big 3. Even a government backed, prepackaged bankruptcy is still going to be enormously difficult/costly to pull off.

 

[dullard]

How many times did I post that we'd bail out the Big 3 and they STILL will go bankrupt?

The big 3 aren't that big. Housing is destroyed and that is 7 times bigger than the big 3 combined. Letting GM fail is peanuts compared to the disaster there.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: dullard
How many times did I post that we'd bail out the Big 3 and they STILL will go bankrupt?

The big 3 aren't that big. Housing is destroyed and that is 7 times bigger than the big 3 combined. Letting GM fail is peanuts compared to the disaster there.

By what measure?

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

We are now bailing out the banks, AIG, and the auto manufacturers all at the same time. The impact of all that gifting will ultimately bring down everything, or that's my fear. I hope I'm wrong.

Apparently the stock market doesn't think so.

People need to stop watching the stock market like a hawk. All of this day trading BS and spotlight focus on those numbers every hour is causing a lot of issues. Things take time. Our econ is based far too much on speculation and the stock market is just one prime example of that. It currently is not reflecting the true condition of a lot of businesses out there right now. The speculation alone is making things much worse than it actually is and that is a huge problem.

I know times are tough and people are really concerned, but I urge everyone to take it slow and think carefully before you react especially when it comes to your investments. The frantic chaos which is causing all of the rampant selling and deflation needs to come to halt.

 

[quest55720]

It is time to move GM to a prepackaged chapter 11. They should of done this months ago. There is no way the company can ever survive as it is right now with out a monthly bail out. This is why I have been against these bail outs it is just a waste of money. We just pissed away billions of dollars to delay the inevitable by a few months.

 

[JACKDRUID]

Originally posted by: Red DawnIf the cost of them failing wouldn't make the cost of bailing them out look like peanuts I'd say let them fail. Unfortunately if they fail the result would be devastating on the economy.

I'm with you on this. I would love to see them go out of business, but not now... our current economy is too weak to take such hit.

 

[OCGuy]

Wow, didnt see this coming :roll:


Anyone who supports this nonsense is either trolling or rode a bus with seatbelts.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Red DawnIf the cost of them failing wouldn't make the cost of bailing them out look like peanuts I'd say let them fail. Unfortunately if they fail the result would be devastating on the economy.

I'm with you on this. I would love to see them go out of business, but not now... our current economy is too weak to take such hit.

Yet it is strong enough to keep pumping money into failed business models?


Holy s*it people actually think like this....

 

[tvarad]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
I see the moral hazard in ongoing bailouts.

But if the alternative is the complete failure of Generous Motors I don't find that acceptable. The 'trickle-down' unemployment would be massive - most likely approaching 2 million jobs lost. ""As GM goes, so goes the country ... ""
....

The basic premise here is that car manufacturing prowess is indispensable. Just like the hand loom was indispensable in cloth manufacturing a century or so ago, or the Gutenberg printing press was indispensable a few centuries ago, or hand scribes were indispensable a few centuries before that. You get my drift.

 

[wwswimming]

i don't think that you have to be a hopeless romantic to support the bailout.

just aware of the alternatives, that is, of what will happen if the government does
not try to halt the slowing down of the economy.

for example, this farm town in the California Central Valley (you know, the people
who grew much of our food).

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_11803992

they are having very hard times because of the drought.

in a sane society, we would build aqueducts, so that regions that have too much
water can divert it to regions that need water to grow food.

so, yes, i support the bail-out, IF it is used to start infrastructure projects that
we NEED. also, as long as we don't bail out wealthy investors who invested
stupidly.

Question #1 - are we having a smart bail-out or a stupid bail-out ?

( a little of each, more of the latter - i support smart bail-outs. )

Question #2 - what year do you want Great Depression 2 to begin, 2009
(definitely) or 2010 (maybe) ?

Obama's between a rock and a hard place. i had a feeling his hair was
going to turn gray awful fast.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
These, 'I have the economic issues figured out' threads look to me like attempts to manage fear, much like when we replay and replay some traumatic event in our head, compulsively. I sense a need to be in control and the horrible fear that our fate is out of our hands. The beauty of say, Islam, is the notion that all that happens is the will of God and that a good man has nothing to fear, in this life, or the next. The wind that blows, the sun that warms my skin, the birds that land in my yard are all free and don't care about the economy and I am rich beyond measure.

Does this differ from your constant "I have you all figured out" posts?

Most certainly. You hand me your fear and I hand you free wind sun and birds.

 

[JACKDRUID]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Red DawnIf the cost of them failing wouldn't make the cost of bailing them out look like peanuts I'd say let them fail. Unfortunately if they fail the result would be devastating on the economy.

I'm with you on this. I would love to see them go out of business, but not now... our current economy is too weak to take such hit.

Yet it is strong enough to keep pumping money into failed business models?


Holy s*it people actually think like this....

before you spout out like a 3 yr old (as always), consider the whole picture.

GM supports the operation of tons of suppliers. If GM fail, most if not all of these suppliers will be brought down as well, creating a multiplier effect. By keeping GM alive (for now), we are keeping these suppliers up as well, keeping jobs for people and pumping money into economy.

 

[Zebo]

You have no idea the fallout should Big 3 crash and burn and ripple effect. Govt would be on hook for at least 2 trillion in pensions and HC. At least 10 million would become unemployed overnight. All those decent jobs would no longer be buying things maybe you make or service - yet more unemployed and business closing after that. Sure let them go, you can make money either way if you halfway invest properly but make no mistake it will be worse than great depression.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Red DawnIf the cost of them failing wouldn't make the cost of bailing them out look like peanuts I'd say let them fail. Unfortunately if they fail the result would be devastating on the economy.

I'm with you on this. I would love to see them go out of business, but not now... our current economy is too weak to take such hit.

Yet it is strong enough to keep pumping money into failed business models?


Holy s*it people actually think like this....

before you spout out like a 3 yr old (as always), consider the whole picture.

GM supports the operation of tons of suppliers. If GM fail, most if not all of these suppliers will be brought down as well, creating a multiplier effect. By keeping GM alive (for now), we are keeping these suppliers up as well, keeping jobs for people and pumping money into economy.

Nobody is buying cars. You think GM is going to keep production high when nobody is buying cars? When production drops so will demand for suppliers. The effect is already in full swing. The only difference is you insist on pumping a cancer patient full of drugs to keep him alive just a bit longer so the nurses wont lose their job.

I am sure if we pump enough into GM they will survive to the next economic boom. But what do we get out of that? A company that less efficient than it should. Banruptcy would do wonders for the big 3. Airlines went through this a few years ago and some are now strong enough to remain in business during a recession and make money.

 

[Kwatt]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Skoorb

We are now bailing out the banks, AIG, and the auto manufacturers all at the same time. The impact of all that gifting will ultimately bring down everything, or that's my fear. I hope I'm wrong.

Apparently the stock market doesn't think so.

People need to stop watching the stock market like a hawk. All of this day trading BS and spotlight focus on those numbers every hour is causing a lot of issues. Things take time. Our econ is based far too much on speculation and the stock market is just one prime example of that. It currently is not reflecting the true condition of a lot of businesses out there right now. The speculation alone is making things much worse than it actually is and that is a huge problem.

I know times are tough and people are really concerned, but I urge everyone to take it slow and think carefully before you react especially when it comes to your investments. The frantic chaos which is causing all of the rampant selling and deflation needs to come to halt.

Panic begets Panic. No one is immune. I know this in my bones.

$ value home down ~15%
$ value investments ~50%
Credit card rates going UP
Prices of food and necessities going UP
Utility just got a rate hike approved.
Unemployed part of last year.
Unemployed all of this year so far.(although job starting April looking good)
On the hook for part of at least 1,500,000,000 Dollars of bailout.


I should be doing one of two things. Wasting more fuel and shoe leather looking for a job or turning off the computer and news sitting back with a beer (although I can't afford to spurge on a beer) and relax. Knowing somehow I will get by.

But I also know if things are going to get worse and I need to try and get more ready. That I will not be told this by our gover-mutts.
The thing I remember most about the last recession is that it was denied we where in one till it was announced it was over!



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