Are we making the same mistakes with China?

[RichardE]

Are we today making the same mistakes with china as we did with Germany?

I understand that perhaps the actual deeds are not similar, China is not causing people to walk around with symbols on there chest to mark who they are, ect. In theory and principle though, the similarities between the two seem to be remarkable. People are overy and justifiably concerned regarding the United States, but compare it, ignorantly to Nazi Germany.

People seem to only remember the outcome of Nazi Germany, the concentration camps, the killing of millions of jews, but ignore the build up to it.

China is currently engaging in most aspects of economical warfare with many countries, deny it if you wish, but at the drop of the hat they can economically bring many countries down.

They are engaging in hyper militarization of there country, as well as funding extremist groups of there enemies, see pakistain terrorists as well as Iran.

They are currently buying up resources at an alarming rate.

They supress all religion and any activity that might chalenge the state.

As we all know, multiple atrocities exist in China. The comparing to Nazi Germany is not in regards to Nazi Germanys execution of jewish people, but in response to there goal on world domination together with a supreme race.

So I ask, are we making the same mistakes with China that we made before, being apathetic towards them, letting them do what they want, due to the reason we a) wish to continue to use there massive cheap labour force and b) wish to avoid conflict with a up and comming super power who could attack our allies.

 

[TRUMPHENT]

The US and its allies have to defeat Iraq before it can tackle an issue like China. Rumsfeld claims that the US can fight more than one war at the time. Heh!

China is billions, the US is still only millions. 'Hope that keeps your perspective meter running.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Actually there are similarities in many authoritarian governments. The US is heading that way and has made many great strides in that direction since 9/11 but China is there already. Some of the actions of both governments can be compared to Nazi Germany but neither is the same.

The US created the latest incarnation of this super China. They did it with massive investments and lending. Once the infrastructure was in place to barely get it started the floodgates were opened for cheep Chinese products to flood the West. Flood they did. It has made countless millionaires and multi billionaires and padded the pockets of many mega corporations. Which in turn fund the government officials who make it happen. Corruption is rife, not only in the US but also in China.

China was actually close to an economical collapse just prior to the West coming to its rescue. The Iron Rice Bowl was already cracking yet we saved them.

I can never forgive politicians, big bussiness' and whomever else are involved in such joint ventures. China is just one of many.

 

[Quinton McLeod]

Originally posted by: Aelius
Actually there are similarities in many authoritarian governments. The US is heading that way and has made many great strides in that direction since 9/11 but China is there already. Some of the actions of both governments can be compared to Nazi Germany but neither is the same.

The US created the latest incarnation of this super China. They did it with massive investments and lending. Once the infrastructure was in place to barely get it started the floodgates were opened for cheep Chinese products to flood the West. Flood they did. It has made countless millionaires and multi billionaires and padded the pockets of many mega corporations. Which in turn fund the government officials who make it happen. Corruption is rife, not only in the US but also in China.

China was actually close to an economical collapse just prior to the West coming to its rescue. The Iron Rice Bowl was already cracking yet we saved them.

I can never forgive politicians, big bussiness' and whomever else are involved in such joint ventures. China is just one of many.

You speak the truth. I wish others realized this.

 

[Canun]

Not even close to Pre-WWII Germany. Germany was forced into an economic collapse by the Treaty of Versailles <sp>. China is actually growing due to the capitalization of the country. It is a hardline communist state, but I'd be willing to bet something happens for the better in the next 50yrs. In the meantime, threats of cutting off trade which generates the large surplus going to that country should be sufficient without forcing them to act like Germany and Japan.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: Canun
Not even close to Pre-WWII Germany. Germany was forced into an economic collapse by the Treaty of Versailles <sp>. China is actually growing due to the capitalization of the country. It is a hardline communist state, but I'd be willing to bet something happens for the better in the next 50yrs. In the meantime, threats of cutting off trade which generates the large surplus going to that country should be sufficient without forcing them to act like Germany and Japan.

I'm pretty much in agreement with what you said.

I don't think of China as an enemy. I don't think China has any plans to "rule the world". They just want to become prosperous and bring millions of their citizens out of poverty. They are an authoritarian regime but I hope that will change in the future. The only possible military conflict with China right now is with Taiwan -- they want to unify the two. That is why I think that are building up and modernizing their military. They don't want to be pushed around and embarassed by us in case it comes down to a military conflict. I just hope it never comes down to this.

 

[Lemon law]

We must understand that China is joining the modern world in a big way. Something that has not happened in five hundred years. And now its happening in the space of one human generation.

World history would have been very different--at least in the far east---because when the Europeans invented the long distance sailing ship and used that to colonise the rest of the world--was exactly the time where China turned inward--and has been under Eropean hedgmony until Mao---and Mao invisioned a rural China--merely independent.

The current Chinese autocratic leaders, at great social cost, are creating a modern China. But even these autocratic leaders can't control the internet and peoples desires to better themselves Sooner or later these autocratic leaders and communism will fall of their own weight as China is already defacto a capitalistic nation. Soon massive military spending will follow and China will control the east.

All Bush and the neo-cons who believe in the project for a new American century manage to do is to weaken the US and help China. Soon a fierce competition will develop world wide for scarce natural resources. If China and India ally, the West may well be doomed. China and India may have been backward-----they no longer are and are not going back.

Twenty years ago the US could have crushed either country militarily----they are far past the crush stage now. What is now odd is that the trade defecit China relies on to keep its economic expansion up. Should the US with draw it now--they might just call in their share of the national debt---and crush us-----thanks GWB.-------maybe he just failed to stare their leaders in the eye and see the same friend he saw in Putin---but China is a nation finally playing its cards wisely---and the US is playing its cards stupid.

What a difference 500 years make.

 

[piasabird]

China depends on our money from trade to keep afloat. We could just cut them off from our markets. They depend on our dollar for their economy.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: piasabird
China depends on our money from trade to keep afloat. We could just cut them off from our markets. They depend on our dollar for their economy.

It is not that simple though, right now the US depends on there money to keep the US afloat.. the only way for the US itself to stop China is to cut its own wrist.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
We must understand that China is joining the modern world in a big way. Something that has not happened in five hundred years. And now its happening in the space of one human generation.

World history would have been very different--at least in the far east---because when the Europeans invented the long distance sailing ship and used that to colonise the rest of the world--was exactly the time where China turned inward--and has been under Eropean hedgmony until Mao---and Mao invisioned a rural China--merely independent.

The current Chinese autocratic leaders, at great social cost, are creating a modern China. But even these autocratic leaders can't control the internet and peoples desires to better themselves Sooner or later these autocratic leaders and communism will fall of their own weight as China is already defacto a capitalistic nation. Soon massive military spending will follow and China will control the east.

All Bush and the neo-cons who believe in the project for a new American century manage to do is to weaken the US and help China. Soon a fierce competition will develop world wide for scarce natural resources. If China and India ally, the West may well be doomed. China and India may have been backward-----they no longer are and are not going back.

Twenty years ago the US could have crushed either country militarily----they are far past the crush stage now. What is now odd is that the trade defecit China relies on to keep its economic expansion up. Should the US with draw it now--they might just call in their share of the national debt---and crush us-----thanks GWB.-------maybe he just failed to stare their leaders in the eye and see the same friend he saw in Putin---but China is a nation finally playing its cards wisely---and the US is playing its cards stupid.

What a difference 500 years make.

I don't understand. In what way would the West be doomed?

Why are there winners and losers in this? Can't we all be winners?

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: RichardE
They are engaging in hyper militarization of there country, as well as funding extremist groups of there enemies, see pakistain terrorists as well as Iran.

They are currently buying up resources at an alarming rate.

Chinese military spending is no where near the U.S. level. A quick Google search showed that in 2004 the U.S. outspent China by more than 7:1. If China is engaged in "hyper militarization" then we've run out of superlatives to describe American military spending. Maybe "obscene" or "totally out of control, beyond reason" might cover it.

China still lags the U.S. in terms of resource consumption in total and lags far behind in per capita resource consumption. The U.S. displayed displeasure when China attempted to implement modest population control measures. What is the alternative? If China can't control its population growth then either China consumes more or the Chinese get poorer. China becoming an economic power is a good thing for stability. China has posessed nuclear weapons for decades. A prosperous nation with nukes is far better than a impoverished nation with nukes.

 

[Jaskalas]

Considering how far in bed we are with China, we?ve made them a world power and it?s only a matter of time until they start reaping the field we?ve planted for them. I expect them to replace us as ?the? biggest force on the planet as we suffer from internal strife and keep playing footsy over in the Arabian Desert.

 

[trenchfoot]

i can't recall the think tank that this postulation came from, but it went something like this:

"to understand china, it must be remembered that unlike western cultures, the chinese are primarily focused on long term goals. it's evident in their history. whereas, the nations of the west will only look as far as the tip of their noses."

the chinese understand that it's to their advantage that they plan for the long haul while the west is short-sighted in its goals, especially as seen through the eyes of western entrepenuers.

in the west, businesses control the government. in china, it's the other way around. guess who wins in the long run?

 

[ntdz]

No, China has no history of agression, and I have no reason to beleive they will show any any time soon.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: piasabird
China depends on our money from trade to keep afloat. We could just cut them off from our markets. They depend on our dollar for their economy.

It is not that simple though, right now the US depends on there money to keep the US afloat.. the only way for the US itself to stop China is to cut its own wrist.

I think it's a combination of the two. If they cut off our supplies, they kill our economy as well as their own. Thus, neither of us can survive without the other. Indeed, I've long thought that outsourcing is really the key ingredient to world peace. Once the standards of living of the world are approximately equal (a natural end to outsourcing, at least in my oversimplified view). Globalization of the world economy inherently forces each nation to become more and more dependent on other nations, thereby decreasing one nation's willingness/ability to piss in another nation's Cheerios.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: piasabird
China depends on our money from trade to keep afloat. We could just cut them off from our markets. They depend on our dollar for their economy.

It is not that simple though, right now the US depends on there money to keep the US afloat.. the only way for the US itself to stop China is to cut its own wrist.

Actually, China owns less than $300 billion of our debt.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: piasabird
China depends on our money from trade to keep afloat. We could just cut them off from our markets. They depend on our dollar for their economy.

It is not that simple though, right now the US depends on there money to keep the US afloat.. the only way for the US itself to stop China is to cut its own wrist.

What money from China? Profits? China isn't actively purchasing US debt as they quit (or almost quit) early last year. Japan even sold off more than they bought in 2005. Carribean Banking Centers is now the largest "yearly" purchaser of US debt.

However, the US does depend on a host of Chinese made items from electronics, clothing, shoes, etc, etc, etc. that could not readily be replaced (all could but at a cost and at a time lag).

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: piasabird
China depends on our money from trade to keep afloat. We could just cut them off from our markets. They depend on our dollar for their economy.

It is not that simple though, right now the US depends on there money to keep the US afloat.. the only way for the US itself to stop China is to cut its own wrist.

I think it's a combination of the two. If they cut off our supplies, they kill our economy as well as their own. Thus, neither of us can survive without the other. Indeed, I've long thought that outsourcing is really the key ingredient to world peace. Once the standards of living of the world are approximately equal (a natural end to outsourcing, at least in my oversimplified view). Globalization of the world economy inherently forces each nation to become more and more dependent on other nations, thereby decreasing one nation's willingness/ability to piss in another nation's Cheerios.

As much as I dislike offshoring (maybe fear it more than dislikeing it), I might tend to agree with you on this one. Only time will tell.

 

[Cruise51]

Originally posted by: ntdz
No, China has no history of agression, and I have no reason to beleive they will show any any time soon.

I agree with that.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: piasabird
China depends on our money from trade to keep afloat. We could just cut them off from our markets. They depend on our dollar for their economy.

It is not that simple though, right now the US depends on there money to keep the US afloat.. the only way for the US itself to stop China is to cut its own wrist.

I think it's a combination of the two. If they cut off our supplies, they kill our economy as well as their own. Thus, neither of us can survive without the other. Indeed, I've long thought that outsourcing is really the key ingredient to world peace. Once the standards of living of the world are approximately equal (a natural end to outsourcing, at least in my oversimplified view). Globalization of the world economy inherently forces each nation to become more and more dependent on other nations, thereby decreasing one nation's willingness/ability to piss in another nation's Cheerios.

That's precisely my feelings too. I think that the principles of free trade is the best approach to equalize the standard of living across the world. In the short term we might have to make some sacrefices but the long term gains will be worth it.

 

[Moonbeam]

I do not know.

 

[Promethply]

MEH --- in the 1980s, many people wondered if we made a big mistake for helping the Japanese rebuit their country after WWII, since back in the 80s, the Japanese economy was growing about as fast as the Chinese economy is now.

At the end of the day, probably it all boils down to economic competition between countries.

 

[Apocalypse X]

Originally posted by: Canun
Not even close to Pre-WWII Germany. Germany was forced into an economic collapse by the Treaty of Versailles <sp>. China is actually growing due to the capitalization of the country. It is a hardline communist state, but I'd be willing to bet something happens for the better in the next 50yrs. In the meantime, threats of cutting off trade which generates the large surplus going to that country should be sufficient without forcing them to act like Germany and Japan.

you truly have no clue

 

[Zebo]

The Chinese way of doing things is "shashou jian" meaning never fight, but build a better mouse trap and strike the enemy dead in a deadly surprise attack. It's been thier way forever... they are biding thier time and building a jugernaught. Their will be no war unless we start it because we won't have an opportunity to strike back when they strike.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Zebo
The Chinese way of doing things is "shashou jian" meaning never fight, but build a better mouse trap and strike the enemy dead in a deadly surprise attack. It's been thier way forever... they are biding thier time and building a jugernaught. Their will be no war unless we start it because we won't have an opportunity to strike back when they strike.

Don't ever underestimate the home of Sun-tzu.

All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War



Confucius was a smart person too, so simple but so effective in bringing positive change if you take the advice he gives.

Bush jr. could have learned a lot

Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves. --Confucius