Are we there yet...

[ivwshane]

If Kavanagh is confirmed, would that be the moment we cross over into fascism? I know that sounds extreme and alarmist but allow me to explain.

Fascism doesn't happen via a hostile takeover where one day everything is fine and the next day we have a military coup. It happens slowly and fascist leaders are elected by the normal processes. These leaders may even come across as good people at first but then something happens. Institutions and norms are brought down, they are discredited and their check on democracy no longer becomes a check but rather a means to an end.

So so far we have a president that was duly elected and he's managed to destroy almost every political norm one can imagine and he's managed to discredit institutions like the press, like the FBI, he's managed to discredit any opposition. And now we have a supreme court nomination that will taint the supreme court, not because of the allegations made against him by multiple women but because of his extreme (especially for a supreme court judge) partisanship (which he put on full display at his hearing and because of his history with the bush admin and Kenneth Starr).

I bring this up because I was listening to a podcast with Richard Clark and Madeline Albright about a book she had written that spoke about fascism. They discussed the rise of fascism in other countries and they drew parallels to what's happening here. In their discussion they talked about turkey and edrogan and how he discredited various institutions and the last one he attacked was the courts which got me thinking about Kavanagh.

So my question is; if Kavanagh is confirmed, have we crossed the line into fascism and if not how much further do we need to go?

You can listen to the podcast yourself here:
https://futurestatepodcast.com/#ep5

From her book:

Mussolini called on his followers to believe in an Italy that would be “prosperous because it was self-sufficient and respected because it was feared,” Albright writes. “This was how twentieth-century fascism began: with a magnetic leader exploiting widespread dissatisfaction by promising all things.” Il Duce, who was Italy’s Prime Minister from 1922 until 1943, said that his mission was “to break the bones of the democrats . . . and the sooner the better.” He used the term “drenare la palude,” or “drain the swamp.” He had a talent for theatre, Albright notes, and was a poor listener who disliked hearing other people talk. He discouraged cabinet members from “proposing any idea that might cause him to doubt his instincts,” which, he insisted, were always right. He also promoted the idea of national self-sufficiency “without ever grasping how unrealistic that ambition had become.”

More from her book:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/madeleine-albright-warns-of-a-new-fascism-and-trump

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Yeah Mussolini didn't use that phrase as far as anything verifiable in historical text. He did literally drain swamps like the Pontine marshes as a public works project but there's no historical text of him using that phrase in reference to any sort political context.

 

[SlowSpyder]

There won't be any fascism. A made up boogyman by the left, actually a typical old-school Republican tactic, make something for your base to fear and exploit it for gain.

We have a long standing democratic process, Trump won. In a few years you'll have a chance to vote again for POTUS. In the meantime we're doing well under his leadership.

 

[mizzou]

There was a game I played that had a rather conservative leaning forum and they posted stuff like this all the time when Obama was president.

Kavanaugh is a sitting judge. Not all judges are angelic saints, their job is to interpret and apply law. It’s actually quite narrow what they do. He doesn’t seem like a super likeable guy, in fact, he seems like the kind of guy who back in his high school or college days would have given nerds on Anandtech toilet swirlies while yelling his frat name. Beside his political leanings, there is no reason to think he won’t logically interpret the constitution. Given all that, he might be dangerous to left causes like aborting babies, but there is no reason to think we will fall into chaotic fascism.

If he gets confirmed, it just means the left when they get their turn will appoint someone even further from Kavanaugh, especially when RGB resigns.

 

[FIVR]

America has always been borderline fascist in its dealings with other countries. The difference is now that fascim is focused inwards instead of outwards (towards some other country like korea, vietnam, afghanistan, iraq.... etc etc).


We are just now getting a taste of the "freedom" we bring to other countries when we replace their leaders. Say "thanks Vlad!"

 

[FIVR]

There was a game I played that had a rather conservative leaning forum and they posted stuff like this all the time when Obama was president.

Kavanaugh is a sitting judge. Not all judges are angelic saints, their job is to interpret and apply law. It’s actually quite narrow what they do. He doesn’t seem like a super likeable guy, in fact, he seems like the kind of guy who back in his high school or college days would have given nerds on Anandtech toilet swirlies while yelling his frat name. Beside his political leanings, there is no reason to think he won’t logically interpret the constitution. Given all that, he might be dangerous to left causes like aborting babies, but there is no reason to think we will fall into chaotic fascism.

If he gets confirmed, it just means the left when they get their turn will appoint someone even further from Kavanaugh, especially when RGB resigns.

Kavanaugh is no angel, he deserves all of this. Do deplorables actually think somebody can act like this as a Judge and not face consequences?


The days when White Males could drunkenly stumble into Yale, graduate with the most basic academic credentials (after raping a few girls) and be nominated to the supreme court are over.

 

[IJTSSG]

TDS induced pearl clutching. lol.

Good job!

 

[ivwshane]

There was a game I played that had a rather conservative leaning forum and they posted stuff like this all the time when Obama was president.

Kavanaugh is a sitting judge. Not all judges are angelic saints, their job is to interpret and apply law. It’s actually quite narrow what they do. He doesn’t seem like a super likeable guy, in fact, he seems like the kind of guy who back in his high school or college days would have given nerds on Anandtech toilet swirlies while yelling his frat name. Beside his political leanings, there is no reason to think he won’t logically interpret the constitution. Given all that, he might be dangerous to left causes like aborting babies, but there is no reason to think we will fall into chaotic fascism.

If he gets confirmed, it just means the left when they get their turn will appoint someone even further from Kavanaugh, especially when RGB resigns.

I disagree and agree at the same time. His views aren't all that different from other judges, especially the conservative ones (full of federalist society members but that's a whole other topic). However, the difference between him and the others is his loyalty to his party before country. He helped attack a sitting president in what was truly a witch hunt who was impeached due to a perjury trap (unless you can tell me what an extramarital affair had to do with white water).
He also helped with the justification of torture by the Bush admin.
He also used stolen information to help pass through nominations to federal courts.
Add to that his rant about a left wing conspiracy and payback by the Clinton's and its clear where his loyalties lie.

 

[realibrad]

I feel like there was a role reverse here. Pre-Obama it was the Right talking about how everyone was a fascist on the Left. It was Obama was gonna take this or ban that. Now its the Left that is claiming everything is fascist.

No, we would not be fascist if he was chosen. At best you could say that its a stepping stone if you presume some things to be true. To get to fascism we would need to go much further.

Now, if Trump is able to get the press under his control then yep, we are there.

 

[sandorski]

Hostile


;GrammarFacist;

 

[shortylickens]

TDS induced pearl clutching. lol.

Good job!

There was louder and more outrage over restrooms and some sort of pizza parlor sex ring I cant recall now.

 

[SlowSpyder]

The Trump Derangement Syndrome is strong here.

 

[SMOGZINN]

The days when White Males could drunkenly stumble into Yale, graduate with the most basic academic credentials (after raping a few girls) and be nominated to the supreme court are over.

You don't actually believe that do you? He has already been nominated to the Supreme Court for one, he has not been confirmed yet but there is little doubt that will happen. The only thing you missed was rich. It is not just any White Male that can drunkenly stumble into Yale and be nominated for the Supreme Court, it is only Rich White Males that can. You know the same ones that judges don't want to send to prison for rape because it would hurt their future.

 

[FIVR]

You don't actually believe that do you?

No I don't, but it's fun to pretend

 

[ivwshane]

I feel like there was a role reverse here. Pre-Obama it was the Right talking about how everyone was a fascist on the Left. It was Obama was gonna take this or ban that. Now its the Left that is claiming everything is fascist.

No, we would not be fascist if he was chosen. At best you could say that its a stepping stone if you presume some things to be true. To get to fascism we would need to go much further.

Now, if Trump is able to get the press under his control then yep, we are there.

That's what I was asking. How much further do we need to go?
Do you dispute my claims that trump has discredited various institutions and norms?
Do you think claims of potential fascism are more or less valid than they were under Obama? Why?

 

[Thebobo]

That's what I was asking. How much further do we need to go?
Do you dispute my claims that trump has discredited various institutions and norms?
Do you think claims of potential fascism are more or less valid than they were under Obama? Why?

Its is amazing all the shitstrom going on with this president and the republicans look the other way. Hopefully they pay the price at the elections.

 

[trenchfoot]

Well seeing as if Trump cannot operate comfortably in an environment where he is held accountable for his actions and seeing as if he has been trying everything he could possibly do to NOT be held accountable for his words and deeds like any fascist leader would be wont to do and seeing as if his supporters are absolutely giddy from the way Trump defies the rule of law, the norms, the ethics, the protocols that are otherwise strenuously demanded from a POTUS of the opposition party, yes I believe we are living in a state of fascism but is being held somewhat in check by popular demand.

If Trump truly had his way we would be living in an unbridled fascist state right at this very moment because fascist leaders put themselves ahead of the interests and welfare of the people he leads. He gathers himself around him sycophants just as any fascist leader would. He strives to control if not destroy the media by blanketing it at every opportunity with propagandist lies and false accusations simply because the media reports how he harms himself and the nation with his childish narcissistic behavior.

Kavanaugh is symbolic of Trump's fascist leanings. Trump has openly declared his fascination with and admiration of present day fascist leaders like Putin and Kim Jong Un. Kavanaugh is a product of Trump's desire to rule with impunity. Kavanaugh is Trump's get out of jail for free card. Kavanaugh is an integral part of the makings of a fascist state that Trump and many of his followers would and are passionately striving for.

 

[realibrad]

That's what I was asking. How much further do we need to go?

I think that is too broad of a question to really answer. I can give examples like I did with the press, but, there are so many paths that one could take to get us there that I don't know if it would be productive.

If we start to see things like enforced beliefs and or speech I think that is one. If we start losing freedoms we currently have could be another.

Do you dispute my claims that trump has discredited various institutions and norms?

Oh for sure. Intelligence institutions, FBI, media ect. He has discredited them for sure, but, that does not mean we have reached the point yet. It is one path to take for sure as it could be enforced beyond public opinion.

Do you think claims of potential fascism are more or less valid than they were under Obama? Why?

Obama was in no real way a fascist.

In terms of Trump, I think the vast majority of what he says/does is to stir up people because he needs chaos to survive. But, even if he did not think to make himself a fascist does not mean that he would not institute fascism. If he stirs up enough chaos, we may see people lash out at institutions that safeguard freedoms and fascism could easily take hold.

So, to sum up Trump, I doubt he is a fascist, but, he is playing with fire and could be the one that brings it to this country. So him being a fascist becomes unimportant if he is the one that leads us down that road.

 

[realibrad]

No I don't, but it's fun to pretend

You find it enjoyable to think about rape and assault?

 

[soundforbjt]

Bill Maher said a few months ago, this is a slow motion coup. I'm beginning to agree now that Kavanaugh has been nominated. The ONLY reason I see Trump nominating him is to protect him and his family from trouble, Roe v Wade is just a side dish served to placate part of his base as cover.

 

[realibrad]

Bill Maher said a few months ago, this is a slow motion coup. I'm beginning to agree now that Kavanaugh has been nominated. The ONLY reason I see Trump nominating him is to protect him and his family from trouble, Roe v Wade is just a side dish served to placate part of his base as cover.

Is that not the foundation of all politics where the party in power tries to take power? The motives might be different depending on the group, but, the goal is the same. Dems and Repubs both want to have control to enact what they think should be done. If you want to frame that as a coup then you should be logically consistent and realize that everything in politics would fall under that.

 

[SlowSpyder]

This is nothing more than a liberal's version of Jade Helm / death panels. The FUD is strong, very strong.

 

[Stokely]

As long as a large portion of the country--one that supports the party in charge currently--is enthusiastic about authoritarianism, it will continue to become the status quo.

The President and everyone else in government are not our heroes, or even our "leaders." They are servants and administrators. We elect them and they should be seeking our approval, not the other way around. They always deserve to be seen with skepticism, as the forces trying to influence them are great (lobbyists above all). Why should the President inspire such an emotional reaction compared to your local school superintendent? It's fucking scary to see people writing things like "Our President was sent by God! LIKE if you think Jesus will give him a second term" on facebook.

If there's one thing that dictatorships have in common, it's not being on the left or the right--it's that the dictator is larger than life. It's about his personality and his greatness, which is made to look greater by demonizing people and groups that oppose him. Dictatorships limit the freedom of the media, and tend to enhance the wealth of the already-wealthy. We are definitely showing signs of it. Young people need to get off their asses and vote, and soon, because the old white Christian demographic sure as hell will--they are the most accepting of authoritarianism based on what I see and hear around me (old white Christians).

 

[soundforbjt]

Is that not the foundation of all politics where the party in power tries to take power? The motives might be different depending on the group, but, the goal is the same. Dems and Repubs both want to have control to enact what they think should be done. If you want to frame that as a coup then you should be logically consistent and realize that everything in politics would fall under that.

Trump cares only about Trump, nothing or no one else. Stopping criminal action taken against him is his only real priority, he could care less about the republican agenda as long as they provide cover for him.

 

[Thebobo]

This is nothing more than a liberal's version of Jade Helm / death panels. The FUD is strong, very strong.

Is that you in with the red hat in this video?