Are you a hypocrite if ...........

[Moonbeam]

...........you oppose an official state religion in the US or one being taught in schools and also support the Zionist state of Israel?

I think one answer is easy, obvious, and self evidently, yes, and while a no answer can only be supported by rationalization(s).

Are you in the obviously self evident category or do you believe you can support your position with actual sound reasoning which you will supply?

 

[BoomerD]

I dunno if it’s hypocric…OUR US constitution bars anything like an official religion. Israel isn’t subject to our constitutional restrictions.

 

[fskimospy]

...........you oppose an official state religion in the US or one being taught in schools and also support the Zionist state of Israel?

I think one answer is easy, obvious, and self evidently, yes, and while a no answer can only be supported by rationalization(s).

Are you in the obviously self evident category or do you believe you can support your position with actual sound reasoning which you will supply?

I would say not hypocritical at all. There's a fundamental disconnect here where when it comes to the US you're asking if you support or oppose a single policy in the US (no state sponsored religion) as opposed to support for an entire state.

I don't support an established religion in any country but also every country has policies I oppose.

 

[nickqt]

I oppose a state religion in the US because that shit was built into the Constitution from the beginning.

Israel can do whatever it wants with religion, although I oppose supporting their continued 70+ year slow-motion genocide apartheid against the majority of non-Jewish inhabitants that they have concentrated relocated into camps small land areas they have military and economic control over.

 

[HomerJS]

...........you oppose an official state religion in the US or one being taught in schools and also support the Zionist state of Israel?

I think one answer is easy, obvious, and self evidently, yes, and while a no answer can only be supported by rationalization(s).

Are you in the obviously self evident category or do you believe you can support your position with actual sound reasoning which you will supply?

As much of a hypocrite if you advocate for religious freedom but not allow the Rastafarians to smoke pot that is part of theirs.

 

[Moonbeam]

I dunno if it’s hypocric…OUR US constitution bars anything like an official religion. Israel isn’t subject to our constitutional restrictions.

Of course this is true but I didn't ask if Israel is subject to our constitution. Of course they are not. I asked if you support the separation of church and state which happens to be in our constitution, but regardless of whether it is or not, isn't it hypocritical to support a state that has that built in.

I would say not hypocritical at all. There's a fundamental disconnect here where when it comes to the US you're asking if you support or oppose a single policy in the US (no state sponsored religion) as opposed to support for an entire state.

I don't support an established religion in any country but also every country has policies I oppose.

I have to say that I expected that if anybody here were to object to my position and to do so with any semblance of logical reasoning it would be you. 👍

For me it is self evident that the policy of having a Jewish state in the world as it is today in the location it is today involving the historical Karma of the people involved that Zionism would lead to genocide. So while I also disagree with various state policies some of them are beyond the pale of anything I can overlook. Religious state sponsored genocide is not something I can abide or overlook any more than I could support the Apartheid government of South Africa.

 

[HomerJS]

Of course this is true but I didn't ask if Israel is subject to our constitution. Of course they are not. I asked if you support the separation of church and state which happens to be in our constitution, but regardless of whether it is or not, isn't it hypocritical to support a state that has that built in.

I have to say that I expected that if anybody here were to object to my position and to do so with any semblance of logical reasoning it would be you. 👍

For me it is self evident that the policy of having a Jewish state in the world as it is today in the location it is today involving the historical Karma of the people involved that Zionism would lead to genocide. So while I also disagree with various state policies some of them are beyond the pale of anything I can overlook. Religious state sponsored genocide is not something I can abide or overlook any more than I could support the Apartheid government of South Africa.

Like Boomer said if other countries want a religious state so long as they aren't breaking international law or committing atrocities or human rights violations who are we to object.

Given a choice of a Jewish state or North Korea where are you choosing to live?

 

[Moonbeam]

As much of a hypocrite if you advocate for religious freedom but not allow the Rastafarians to smoke pot that is part of theirs.

Or prevent Native Americans from using peyote.

This is all the product of egotistical arrogance, the unexamined belief that whatever bullshit you were programmed to take as sacred truth as a result of being raised by ignoramuses which you have now joined, is the one and only truth instead of remembering these beliefs were a baptism conversion based on the fear of drowning.

 

[fskimospy]

Or prevent Native Americans from using peyote.

This is all the product of egotistical arrogance, the unexamined belief that whatever bullshit you were programmed to take as sacred truth as a result of being raised by ignoramuses which you have now joined, is the one and only truth instead of remembering these beliefs were a baptism conversion based on the fear of drowning.

It is darkly amusing that Congress passed the religious freedom restoration act precisely in response to SCOTUS ruling that peyote for religious purposes was still able to be made illegal. Then conservatives turned around and used it to exempt religious people from basically any law they don’t feel like following.

 

[Moonbeam]

Like Boomer said if other countries want a religious state so long as they aren't breaking international law or committing atrocities or human rights violations who are we to object.

Given a choice of a Jewish state or North Korea where are you choosing to live?

What does it mean to live? Isn't life your very being? I am who I am because I woke up once and found I was present. That happened the moment I could no longer believe in anything. I was in the world but not of it. I am where I am and have no intention to be in Israel or North Korea. That is not something I would choose. My body is in the US by accident of birth. I am an American by birth and location. None of that has anything to do with my being. A long time ago I was given a peek through a veil and saw that heaven is within me.

 

[Jaskalas]

...........you oppose an official state religion in the US or one being taught in schools and also support the Zionist state of Israel?

I oppose Genocide, concentration camps and slavery, yet we do not ban China and Russia from leaving their own borders. We even do a lot of trade. By our actions we support and implicitly endorse them and their actions.

The world is not black and white, and the values we hold are something we very selectively impose onto others. It is far from a universal truth that those we do business with, talk to, and ally with, are only people who share in our laws and our traditions.

Israel is a complicated issue as it is the only "Democracy" among its neighbors. It is comprised of a people who faced widespread oppression and slaughter for hundreds, if not two thousand years. We gave them a land near their historical lands. We lit the fire in the Middle East. It still burns to this day. As we did not clearly separate the indigenous people from Israel and draft the remains onto their neighbors. In short, it was our stupid act.

Religion does not define our obligations, nor our necessary acts to see the issue resolved.
We support Israel insofar as we do not want to see it crushed and slaughtered in a sea of enemies. Nor do we want them forced to use nukes.
We also need to condemn Israel when it disregards the lives of its neighbors.

None of this is simple, nor easy to balance. And major escalations should be determined by the facts and circumstances on which they are born, not the religion or flag a people hold. We too have failed in any obligation to save lives, by not ensuring a clear vision for a peaceful resolution to this armed conflict.

 

[Moonbeam]

It is darkly amusing that Congress passed the religious freedom restoration act precisely in response to SCOTUS ruling that peyote for religious purposes was still able to be made illegal. Then conservatives turned around and used it to exempt religious people from basically any law they don’t feel like following.

Darkly amusing in that self hate will turn the very thing that makes us human, the will to create heaven on earth into self destruction via the use of cunning self advantage to stave off feeling worthless. I have heard that Islam specifically forbids donations to the Mosque unless life's needs are met in the home.

 

[Moonbeam]

I oppose Genocide, concentration camps and slavery, yet we do not ban China and Russia from leaving their own borders. We even do a lot of trade. By our actions we support and implicitly endorse them and their actions.

The world is not black and white, and the values we hold are something we very selectively impose onto others. It is far from a universal truth that those we do business with, talk to, and ally with, are only people who share in our laws and our traditions.

Israel is a complicated issue as it is the only "Democracy" among its neighbors. It is comprised of a people who faced widespread oppression and slaughter for hundreds, if not two thousand years. We gave them a land near their historical lands. We lit the fire in the Middle East. It still burns to this day. As we did not clearly separate the indigenous people from Israel and draft the remains onto their neighbors. In short, it was our stupid act.

Religion does not define our obligations, nor our necessary acts to see the issue resolved.
We support Israel insofar as we do not want to see it crushed and slaughtered in a sea of enemies. Nor do we want them forced to use nukes.
We also need to condemn Israel when it disregards the lives of its neighbors.

None of this is simple, nor easy to balance. And major escalations should be determined by the facts and circumstances on which they are born, not the religion or flag a people hold. We too have failed in any obligation to save lives, by not ensuring a clear vision for a peaceful resolution to this armed conflict.

As I said in my original post the answer would be either very simple or extremely complex. I'm all for bringing Netanyahu to Washington for to discuss American aid and capturing him and sending him for trial at the Hague.

 

[Moonbeam]

It is darkly amusing that Congress passed the religious freedom restoration act precisely in response to SCOTUS ruling that peyote for religious purposes was still able to be made illegal. Then conservatives turned around and used it to exempt religious people from basically any law they don’t feel like following.

What's darkly amusing to me is that if the US were a Christian nation we'd put the nation on a cross to save a Palestinian.

 

[fskimospy]

What's darkly amusing to me is that if the US were a Christian nation we'd put the nation on a cross to save a Palestinian.

I guess that would depend on if you meant Christian as in ‘follows tenets of Christianity’ or if you mean ‘behaves as the overwhelming majority of Christians always have’.

 

[HomerJS]

What does it mean to live? Isn't life your very being? I am who I am because I woke up once and found I was present. That happened the moment I could no longer believe in anything. I was in the world but not of it. I am where I am and have no intention to be in Israel or North Korea. That is not something I would choose. My body is in the US by accident of birth. I am an American by birth and location. None of that has anything to do with my being. A long time ago I was given a peek through a veil and saw that heaven is within me.

My point was religious countries as long as they adhere to the norms of humanity aren't the worst places to live. I picked DPRK as some place that isn't religious but would be far worse vs Israel. I would probably rank a Muslim country just slightly better vs DPRK noting the irony in their title.

Based on what I know of these 2 countries. I could be wrong.

 

[MrSquished]

The main reason to not support the radical Zionist state of Israel, or to be against your country's support, is simply because they are a horrific apartheid and terrorist nation guilty of absolutely bonkers war crimes and oppression. Fuck them.

 

[Moonbeam]

I guess that would depend on if you meant Christian as in ‘follows tenets of Christianity’ or if you mean ‘behaves as the overwhelming majority of Christians always have’.

No surprise to me that you would see such a distinction and see it as vital.

 

[Moonbeam]

My point was religious countries as long as they adhere to the norms of humanity aren't the worst places to live. I picked DPRK as some place that isn't religious but would be far worse vs Israel. I would probably rank a Muslim country just slightly better vs DPRK noting the irony in their title.

Based on what I know of these 2 countries. I could be wrong.

I knew what your intention was but I wanted to offer a different notion on what life is, that what we generally call life is our external situation and not our private capacity to transcend negative emotional reactions. I don't think you are wrong and I would choose to live in Israel a thousand times over North Korea. The Israeli people may still have to power to change their government for the better. I think it likely that any visible sign of any NK person harboring such a wish would be a death sentence. Also, I believe that any real Jew, that is one that is true to the deepest wisdom the Jewish Religion contains, and I think that knowledge is vast, would never tie Jewish Identity to any state. I feel quite certain that the Jewish Religion is a product of people who experienced a God conscious state, an inner realization that frees one from the idolatry of nationalism.

 

[Jaskalas]

As I said in my original post the answer would be either very simple or extremely complex. I'm all for bringing Netanyahu to Washington for to discuss American aid and capturing him and sending him for trial at the Hague.

That sounds simple.
You know they have nuclear weapons, right?

They may not understand the difference between your hostile position and Hamas. Where if they are unable to be supplied and fight against the killers of their people. They may think you are leaving them defenseless. With no choice but to erase everything they can. In fact, I suppose that's not far from their current mindset. It's merely what tools do they have left to act with? Conventional, or nuclear?

I tell you, it is up to the world (and us) to craft a vision of peace.
To make a plan, to demonstrate to them that this plan includes them... IF they start taking in and caring for the refugees they are making. That the world will supply the effort. Keeping Palestinians alive wouldn't just be a burden on them. But could be a united effort to disarm, control the import of weapons, and make peace. Israel chooses the opposite route out of human nature. Clubbing them over the head with it will accomplish nothing good. We must provide both carrot and stick.

 

[Moonbeam]

That sounds simple.
You know they have nuclear weapons, right?

They may not understand the difference between your hostile position and Hamas. Where if they are unable to be supplied and fight against the killers of their people. They may think you are leaving them defenseless. With no choice but to erase everything they can. In fact, I suppose that's not far from their current mindset. It's merely what tools do they have left to act with? Conventional, or nuclear?

I tell you, it is up to the world (and us) to craft a vision of peace.
To make a plan, to demonstrate to them that this plan includes them... IF they start taking in and caring for the refugees they are making. That the world will supply the effort. Keeping Palestinians alive wouldn't just be a burden on them. But could be a united effort to disarm, control the import of weapons, and make peace. Israel chooses the opposite route out of human nature. Clubbing them over the head with it will accomplish nothing good. We must provide both carrot and stick.

Years ago I remember a story I think about some Lebanese official telling the American diplomat to go home and let us kill each other in peace.

You bring to mind another story too, of the turtle who died from a scorpion sting half way across a river trusting the scorpion’s words it would be crazy to end his own life that way.

From a snake expect snake behavior.

 

[Jaskalas]

Years ago I remember a story I think about some Lebanese official telling the American diplomat to go home and let us kill each other in peace.

You bring to mind another story too, of the turtle who died from a scorpion sting half way across a river trusting the scorpion’s words it would be crazy to end his own life that way.

From a snake expect snake behavior.

If we existed in a world of purely conventional weapons, you could certainly debate whether Israel is the scorpion. And draw a logical conclusion from that alone.
But as it stands, the scorpion WILL string no less than the Middle East if we do not seek and find conflict resolution.
And as that is the just and moral goal anyway, to stop future generations from dying needlessly.

This is not a river. It is our duty.

Again, none of these notions have to do with the original supposition of focusing on our laws VS their apparent theocracy. So I reject the notion of hypocrisy if the religious aspect was never a focus in the first place. There are bigger issues at play in the conflict we started at the dawn of the 20th century. Two peoples sharing one land. Something we will learn a lot more of, in a more intimate and dire examination, on American soil as the years progress.