Are you planning on buying (or already bought) an AM4 Raven Ridge APU?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,802
11,157
136
as far as hardware support goes, as well as system security, Windows 10 is FAR more advanced.

So long as the hardware is sufficiently modern, that is correct. Some legacy hardware does not have proper driver support with Win10 (let's face it, some of that hardware hasn't gotten proper driver updates since WinXP; Win7 just did a better job of kludging and letting old drivers work). I doubt that will be a major issue with Raven Ridge systems. Perhaps someone out there is going to try to use some kind of old PCI card on a B350 board?

In any case, any brand-new RR system would be better-served by Win10 in my opinion. Hell I found my Kaveri to be ever-so-slightly more performant under Win10 than Win7. Perhaps that has more to do with scheduler updates and CMT than anything else . . .
 

Harmaaviini

Member
Dec 15, 2016
34
11
36
Give it time. By the time Win7 EOLs, you won't be able to buy new parts for a PC to run it.

What I don't actually get is - Win7 is an x86 / x64 / ATX / ACPI-compatible OS. If something WONT run it, then it seems... kind of broken, as far as PC standard compatibility goes, IMHO.

I know and if RR is any indication then PR may not work with Win7 either (Luckily Skylake is a viable arch for a gaming PC still if I really want to stay on supported hardware). I've also wondered about why RR doesn't work with Win7. And shouldn't that concern any corporate buyers (even those on other OS's) if an instruction or a sequence of instructions crashes the system that's supposed to be compatible with those instructions?
 

Harmaaviini

Member
Dec 15, 2016
34
11
36
It's already a liability.

Yet here I am still finding it usefull.

Clearly you want Raven Ridge, and yet you're letting an OS choice make the decision for you. How is there no advantage to using Win10 under this scenario?

I want a CPU upgrade not RR specifically. RR was just an interesting option until I found out it doesn't work on my OS. So I'll just choose a different CPU that works.

AMD can see the writing on the wall: Win7 is a deprecated, closed-source OS that will receive minimal-to-no support from Microsoft in the future. I'm sure MS has offered them some incentives to abandon Win7 as well.

For AMD, it makes perfect sense.

I'm not that concerned what makes perfect sense for AMD I'm more concerned about myself. And I'm not even sure if it makes sense because a year earlier it made sense to make sure SR runs Win7 and there has been no drastic change on the OS front in that time. And I'm not really ok with MS incentivising hardware manufacturers to move away from Win7 and them complying.
 

Harmaaviini

Member
Dec 15, 2016
34
11
36
By the way:
Can RR run Win7 in a virtual machine or does it crash?
Is GPU virtualization supported on RR or is it limited to professional discrete cards?
 

EXCellR8

Diamond Member
Sep 1, 2010
3,982
839
136
I'd be willing to bet you could get it to run Windows 7 on a VM with some tweaking but that sort of goes for a lot of things. I'll do some exhaustive testing if someone wants to provide the hardware
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,873
1,527
136
it never happened before that a S.O. died before the end of support, After Windows XP went EOL software and hardware still had drivers for it for a while.

Windows 7 is not yet EOL, but right now it does not support newer hardware and there is software that does not work either, that means its petty much dead before going EOL.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,802
11,157
136
Yet here I am still finding it usefull.

It isn't as useful as it used to be.

Five years ago, you could buy any x86 PC hardware you wanted, and you'd get full driver support for it under Win7 without question. Today you can't. As the months roll by, Win7 diehards have it worse and worse. Stay in denial if you like.

I want a CPU upgrade not RR specifically. RR was just an interesting option until I found out it doesn't work on my OS. So I'll just choose a different CPU that works.

But Raven Ridge does work. It's your OS that is the problem. There will come a day when absolutely none of the new PC hardware on the market supports Win7. Will you declare all that hardware to be non-functional?

I'm not that concerned what makes perfect sense for AMD I'm more concerned about myself. And I'm not even sure if it makes sense because a year earlier it made sense to make sure SR runs Win7 and there has been no drastic change on the OS front in that time. And I'm not really ok with MS incentivising hardware manufacturers to move away from Win7 and them complying.

Go march on Redmond. Otherwise, you are going to get whatever it is they choose to sell you, or nothing at all. Who you are as a PC user, and what you want as a consumer, are sufficiently "niche" that companies like AMD can profit from ignoring you. Who really wants to support two different OSes anyway, especially when the company that produced both, only actively supports one?

The voice of the consumer is not calling for long-term OS support for Win7. AMD isn't hearing this, either because the voices are not raised in unison (backed by wallets) or because MS has helped them to plug their ears. Intel is the same way. Who can blame them? Supporting multiple operating systems is a drain on resources. Win7 users by-and-large are not buying up new hardware to run under that old OS. Most of today's Wintel DiY buyers are buying for Win10. 100% of the Wintel OEM buyers are buying hardware mated to Win10. I would expect more support for modern hardware under Linux than I would Win7 at this point. That ought to tell you something.

We're in a market now dominated by smartphones and tablets. PCs are losing market share (still), and DIY PC users are a niche within that niche. Win7 is the last MS OS that you will truly own. MS wants it deprecated because their business model depends on that. All us PC enthusiasts on the Wintel platform have to come to terms with the future in one way or another. Most of the world never really cared about our hobby, but we skated by just fine by buying top-of-the-line variants of the same hardware that went into the millions upon millions of PCs going into living rooms and schools all across the modernized world. The mass sales of low-end hardware supported our ecosystem - including operating systems like Win7.

A lot of that money moved, and things changed. Now you have Win10.

Of course, when you bought into a closed-source OS, you did know what could happen to you, didn't you?

All that aside, I feel fortunate that companies like AMD can still be bothered to produce desktop variants of chips like Raven Ridge. They could have gone full-bore on the server segment, sold us "dumbed down" HEDT products like Threadripper and maybe Summit Ridge (maybe), and targeted all their low-end stuff to OEMs exclusively - meaning a small selection of BGA boards with no real overclocking, all aimed at AiOs/slim desktops or laptops. It would have been a safe bet for them.

But they're still cranking out some Raven Ridge products for the DiY user, and to me that's exceptional. The business case for those setups has been pretty shaky lately.

it never happened before that a S.O. died before the end of support, After Windows XP went EOL software and hardware still had drivers for it for a while.

Windows 7 is not yet EOL, but right now it does not support newer hardware and there is software that does not work either, that means its petty much dead before going EOL.

MS learned a lot from WinXP. One of the things they learned is that it's hard to sell licenses for a new OS (notably, Vista) when people are happy and well-supported on the OS already on their computer, with a fully-transferable license they can use ad nauseam. MS's sales were pegged on two major pillars: the continued proliferation of PCs, and the general awful-ness of their old software requiring regular OS upgrades. They really had to knock one out of the park with Win7 to push people off XP. Now the mass-proliferation of PCs has wound down and MS knows full well that it's hard to get people to give up their old OS licenses, so they have to go in a different direction.

One of the casualties is proper driver support for new hardware under Win7.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,733
565
126
I think RR is a good product, but its not a good product for me. I just don't need another quad core at the end of the day and prefer discrete GPUs for what I like to do with hardware these days. I'm waiting to see if the new AM4 chipsets support proper IOMMU separation of the chipset devices/slots and if they do I'll probably pair one of those with an 8 core.

By the way:
Can RR run Win7 in a virtual machine or does it crash?
Is GPU virtualization supported on RR or is it limited to professional discrete cards?

I doubt it would crash. The host CPU is usually presented to the guest though and MS will may disable updates when it detects it. It would be particularly nasty to do that in a VM but I suppose you can work around it even then in a few different ways.

GPU passthrough of iGPU can sometimes be made to work, I'm not sure it'll work with the RR one right now though. But I've heard of some people getting FM2 igpus working in passthrough before so maybe it won't be so hard. I think level1techs will probably try it out soon though.
 

Harmaaviini

Member
Dec 15, 2016
34
11
36
It isn't as useful as it used to be.

Five years ago, you could buy any x86 PC hardware you wanted, and you'd get full driver support for it under Win7 without question. Today you can't. As the months roll by, Win7 diehards have it worse and worse. Stay in denial if you like.

What denial? You're just looking at it from a flawed perspective. All the games and software I used 5 years ago still work so it's just as usefull now as it was back then. Running particular hardware is not the end goal but running software is. And there still is a wide range of supported hardware to accomplish that. After I upgrade things won't get worse and worse I'll just keep using it as allways.

The voice of the consumer is not calling for long-term OS support for Win7.

Considering current market share numbers I don't think you're entirely correct.

Who can blame them?

I can! You can! Everyone can!

Supporting multiple operating systems is a drain on resources.

Oh yes the precious corporate resources and shareholder value we all should care about! You know what else is a drain on resources? All the RMA programs. Your motherboard died? Well dry your tears and pull out your creditcard!

MS learned a lot from WinXP. One of the things they learned is that it's hard to sell licenses for a new OS (notably, Vista) when people are happy and well-supported on the OS already on their computer, with a fully-transferable license they can use ad nauseam. MS's sales were pegged on two major pillars: the continued proliferation of PCs, and the general awful-ness of their old software requiring regular OS upgrades. They really had to knock one out of the park with Win7 to push people off XP. Now the mass-proliferation of PCs has wound down and MS knows full well that it's hard to get people to give up their old OS licenses, so they have to go in a different direction.

Yes the well supported fully-transferable OS that they gave MS money for.
 
Aug 11, 2008
10,451
642
126
I totally agree with you. Win 7 did everything that Win 10 does without several bugs I have had with Win 10. We also have PCs at work that use win 7, and they are a pleasure to use. Unfortunately, MS holds all the power, and ultimately will force users to abandon Win 7 by refusing to do security updates. I think this is corporate abuse in its worst form, and dont really know why some (one particular) user(s) seem to think this is OK, because poor MS cant afford to support 2 operating systems. The consumer unfortunately can do little except bend over and take it, but at least we can delay the inevitable by refusing to buy new hardware, especially hardware that *only* supports Win 10. We do have one other weapon though: I have already moved one of my laptops to linux, and it is becoming more attractive for all my PCs as I am gaming less and less now.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: BSim500

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,802
11,157
136
You're just looking at it from a flawed perspective.

No, I just prefer to deal with reality as it is . . .

Considering current market share numbers I don't think you're entirely correct.

People aren't buying new hardware for Win7 in droves. If they were, then that would be calling for long-term OS support for Win7. Money talks, BS walks.

I can! You can! Everyone can!

Mmhmm.

Oh yes the precious corporate resources and shareholder value we all should care about! You know what else is a drain on resources? All the RMA programs. Your motherboard died? Well dry your tears and pull out your creditcard!

Like I said, you bought a closed-source OS, so this is what you get. Sorry, bud. Don't like it? Go run Linux, seriously. Linux will support Raven Ridge and . . . actually I don't know how long it will take for Linux + Wine or Linux + VMs to do everything Win7 can do flawlessly (perhaps never when it comes to DRMed stuff and/or programs with anticheat software). But it's got to be damn close by now.

Yes the well supported fully-transferable OS that they gave MS money for.

I paid money for Win7 too. MS knows that I only paid for it one time, and so do I. If I use Win7 forever, MS has no revenue stream from me. If all their customers did that, then they have no revenue stream from anyone for their OS. So they go out of business, and we all get to run what exactly?
 

BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
1,480
216
106
I paid money for Win7 too. MS knows that I only paid for it one time, and so do I. If I use Win7 forever, MS has no revenue stream from me. If all their customers did that, then they have no revenue stream from anyone for their OS. So they go out of business, and we all get to run what exactly?
I think you'll find most people who upgraded to W10 for free, who don't pay annual "subscriptions" for MS Office, who buy all their games from Steam / GOG / uPlay / Origin and who haven't bought a single thing via the Windows Store continue to remain exactly the same "zero revenue customers" as before... Ironically, MS got more money from me back when 1. They gave me a reason to pay to upgrade the OS beyond "we want to sell you the same thing but with an even uglier UI" and 2. They actually published decent "PC-first" games worth buying at full price (Age of Empires, Rise of Nations, Freelancer, etc). It sure didn't take long for Quantum Break to come to Steam due to... poor Windows 10 Store Exclusive sales...

As for the Ryzen APU's, I was looking at a 2200G / 2400G for a gaming rig that runs predominately older games that's running W7 for a reason - there are some older games that "just work" far better under W7 than W10 (in large part due to changes made in "DWM" from W8). I'd consider switching if W10 was superior, but if you don't play DX12 games and you have zero interest in the trashy store-front stapled to it (the real reason for "full on upgrade coercion"), it simply isn't. (For some popular titles, the sight of all that 'obsolescence' on modern CPU's can be quite amusing...)
 

Mr Evil

Senior member
Jul 24, 2015
464
187
116
mrevil.asvachin.com
Thread derailed. Well done to everyone allowing themselves to get worked-up over a tangent, and especially to the ones deliberately trying to distract us from talking about Raven Ridge, since it actually looks pretty good and worth discussing.

So... I don't suppose anyone knows when the "E" versions are likely to be released? A matter of weeks, or months?
 

ZGR

Platinum Member
Oct 26, 2012
2,054
661
136
All old games I run on W7 run on W10. Not to mention W10 was a FREE upgrade for awhile. But yeah, weird thread.

Ryzen G has the best performance per dollar, fits into an upgradeable socket supporting 8 core CPU's, and performance scales linearly with fast RAM + GPU overclock.

The 4 core 4 thread 2200G may not cut it for a lot of games; the same problem Intel quad i5's ran into, even at a high overclock.

But these APU's are under half the price of Intel's unlocked Iris Pro 5000 series, and much faster.

Owning a fast iGPU is a wonderful thing, even when not using it. It provides a good enough backup to go without a dGPU for a long time.

I used my 5775c's iGPU for a couple months playing old games at 4k. This APU is much faster!

The GT 1030 comparisons are asinine. The price gap is such that all it does is show what poor value dGPU's are right now.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,655
136
All old games I run on W7 run on W10. Not to mention W10 was a FREE upgrade for awhile. But yeah, weird thread.

Ryzen G has the best performance per dollar, fits into an upgradeable socket supporting 8 core CPU's, and performance scales linearly with fast RAM + GPU overclock.

The 4 core 4 thread 2200G may not cut it for a lot of games; the same problem Intel quad i5's ran into, even at a high overclock.

But these APU's are under half the price of Intel's unlocked Iris Pro 5000 series, and much faster.

Owning a fast iGPU is a wonderful thing, even when not using it. It provides a good enough backup to go without a dGPU for a long time.

I used my 5775c's iGPU for a couple months playing old games at 4k. This APU is much faster!

The GT 1030 comparisons are asinine. The price gap is such that all it does is show what poor value dGPU's are right now.

It's the perfect option for people doing budget builds that want a 150-200 card in a 1050-60, or 570-580. But want to wait it out but still play games. You get a reasonably capable CPU that will be sufficient for use in 2016 and older games (and a few 2017 ones). A GPU that can pull of reasonable rates on sub quality settings, but not terrible settings. Then when prices drop than get a dGPU and after that if the CPU starts to struggle, we know that the socket will support 3-4 generation of Ryzen CPU's supporting probably 12+ cores. Minimum max of 8C16T.
 
Reactions: ZGR

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,802
11,157
136
I think you'll find most people who upgraded to W10 for free, who don't pay annual "subscriptions" for MS Office, who buy all their games from Steam / GOG / uPlay / Origin and who haven't bought a single thing via the Windows Store continue to remain exactly the same "zero revenue customers" as before... Ironically, MS got more money from me back when 1. They gave me a reason to pay to upgrade the OS beyond "we want to sell you the same thing but with an even uglier UI" and 2. They actually published decent "PC-first" games worth buying at full price (Age of Empires, Rise of Nations, Freelancer, etc). It sure didn't take long for Quantum Break to come to Steam due to... poor Windows 10 Store Exclusive sales...

It's mostly about maintaining lockin and getting rid of all the fully-transferable licenses out there. They had to do the free upgrade because of how many people were so violently opposed to Win8.

As for the Ryzen APU's, I was looking at a 2200G / 2400G for a gaming rig that runs predominately older games that's running W7 for a reason - there are some older games that "just work" far better under W7 than W10 (in large part due to changes made in "DWM" from W8). I'd consider switching if W10 was superior, but if you don't play DX12 games and you have zero interest in the trashy store-front stapled to it (the real reason for "full on upgrade coercion"), it simply isn't. (For some popular titles, the sight of all that 'obsolescence' on modern CPU's can be quite amusing...)

If anything, now is the time for MS to improve compatibility with older software. I've often wondered why they didn't take a cue from GoG and have the option to spawn a one-off VM just to run a particular older title, instead of forcing a user to hand-configure one to suit the scenario or letting them twist in the wind with half-arsed compatibility mode. Still a problem for some DRM/anticheat stuff but what can you do?

That being said, if I were on a Raven Ridge system and I wanted to use software from the XP days on up, I would expect most of it to work. Hell I've recently run stuff as old as Age of Wonder II on my Win10 machine, and that would work just fine on a Raven Ridge system (it's all 2D anyway). I have seen people reporting problems with the Telltale Sam & Max games under Win10.

Thread derailed. Well done to everyone allowing themselves to get worked-up over a tangent, and especially to the ones deliberately trying to distract us from talking about Raven Ridge, since it actually looks pretty good and worth discussing.

So... I don't suppose anyone knows when the "E" versions are likely to be released? A matter of weeks, or months?

Thank the people whose only contribution to the thread was to say, "If it won't work with mah OS then it doesn't work!!!". Seriously, Raven Ridge IS pretty good, it is worth discussing, and no it is not a valid complaint at all that XYZ old software/OS from almost ten years ago isn't supported by it.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,570
96
By the time I will get to needing/saving up money to/for building a a new system, Socket AM5 will be out with DDR5/PCIe5 support. The only reasons I'm been keeping up is that I'm a geek, and I have friends who ask me about buying new computer hardware.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,802
11,157
136
By the time I will get to needing/saving up money to/for building a a new system, Socket AM5 will be out with DDR5/PCIe5 support. The only reasons I'm been keeping up is that I'm a geek, and I have friends who ask me about buying new computer hardware.

When is that going to be? 2020?
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
Nope.

For the time being I will stick with Intel. That could change this year or next year.
I have used AMD in the past. Athlon A, B, C, 64, on slot A, socket A, socket 754, socket 939, AM2, and AM3.

I have no brand loyalty when it comes to spending hundreds of dollars on performance. Same with cars and power tools and cell phones.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,802
11,157
136
I finally upgraded my HTPC. That 40GB Intel SSD was getting a wee bit tight

I see you got a CAS/CL 16 kit of DDR4-3200 with your system. What kind of speeds are you getting out of that RAM thus far? And at what voltage?
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |