Solved! ARM Apple High-End CPU - Intel replacement

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Richie Rich

Senior member
Jul 28, 2019
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There is a first rumor about Intel replacement in Apple products:
  • ARM based high-end CPU
  • 8 cores, no SMT
  • IPC +30% over Cortex A77
  • desktop performance (Core i7/Ryzen R7) with much lower power consumption
  • introduction with new gen MacBook Air in mid 2020 (considering also MacBook PRO and iMac)
  • massive AI accelerator

Source Coreteks:
 
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Solution
What an understatement And it looks like it doesn't want to die. Yet.


Yes, A13 is competitive against Intel chips but the emulation tax is about 2x. So given that A13 ~= Intel, for emulated x86 programs you'd get half the speed of an equivalent x86 machine. This is one of the reasons they haven't yet switched.

Another reason is that it would prevent the use of Windows on their machines, something some say is very important.

The level of ignorance in this thread would be shocking if it weren't depressing.
Let's state some basics:

(a) History. Apple has never let backward compatibility limit what they do. They are not Intel, they are not Windows. They don't sell perpetual compatibility as a feature. Christ, the big...

Richie Rich

Senior member
Jul 28, 2019
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Why?

Apple is sparing with it's halo performance cores for a reason - they suck the battery dry when in full swing - this is the second edge to the blade of any super wide design, which is probably why they put such effort into the perf/watt development of their little cores which are still leaving ARM Cortex in the dust on that front due to zero consumer updates since A55.

Bare in mind that even with A77 Qualcomm have moved to having one 'prime' core at full whack frequency, with others at a few hundred mhz less and then the little cores.

If the SD 875 uses X1 at all, it will likely be that single prime core, with the other 3 being A78 - power consumption alone will demand this configuration, though perhaps an 8cx successor might use 2x X1 cores or more.

I really do hope that ARM put their best foot forward with the next gen little core to match with Matterhorn - considering that the more efficient background app execution mode of any mobile device depends on them, to say nothing of all the lesser gadgets like streaming sticks that use only little cores for their basic computation.

It should also be noted that core transistor count will likely not stay the same from generation to generation within a given width, this means that while perf will go up, so will power and area for each generation.

The few examples where this is not true like A73 and A78 have been for differing reasons - A73 was not a direct uArch successor to A72 coming from the Sophia design hub, quite possibly more of a descendant of the A17 at a more fundamental level, and A78 was likely Austin recognising areas where they could have made A77 more efficient, given more time to work on it.

1) I agree with A73. But A78 is not little tweaked A77. There are pretty massive changes in ALU and AGU back-end as well as in front end. A78 is basically PPA optimized (downgraded) Cortex X1. Not upgraded A77. I like this development approach a lot because nobody did this before. ARM LLC is development godzilla right now. Last year there was rumour about massive hiring into GPU development. We can expect same big bang in GPU in two years and big troubles for AMD and Nvidia in GPU business.

2) Apple needs 4-core A14 as a replacement for outdated A12X. This is top priority because they can use it in iPads, iMacs, and MacBooks. As a bonus they can use it in iPhone too (with disabled CPU and GPU cores to increase yields). Two big cores at 5nm is about 5mm2, that's almost nothing.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
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Not upgraded A77. I like this development approach a lot because nobody did this before.
Not so sure about that - A72 seemed like Austin hub on a mission to make A57 mobile friendly more than any kind of performance upgrade.

But hey it worked, A72 certainly got in a lot more SoC's than A57 did.
A78 is basically PPA optimized (downgraded) Cortex X1.
Wrong way around, A78 is the optimised base on which X1 is designed - I'm pretty sure Anand's article even said something to that effect.

Cleaning up 4 and then going 4 -> 5 makes a lot more sense than 5 -> 4 from a design strategy point of view.

Not to mention A78 IS upgraded over A77.

It's slightly smaller, and lower power at ISO process while having superior IPC - what's not to like if you don't have the power/area/cost budget for X1?
 
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Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
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That 'incentive' part is a sticky proposition at best - far more stick than carrot, if any carrot exists there at all for the application developers.

A real incentive would be Apple actually paying developers handsomely to do their dirty work of supporting their new platform, rather than a threat of possible loss of users/customers because Apple felt like ditching x86.

If you follow that logic to its conclusion, those same customers will need to buy new ARM Macs if x86 support will be entirely ended in the future.

While some would likely follow the Apple party line, there is no small chance that some would stop and take stock in such a situation, especially if it involves a company wide change of dozens to hundreds of computers - from there some might consider moving to a completely different OS platform entirely, so long as the same software exists there.

Which it does for many of the big application suites used on Mac's like Autodesk, Adobe CC and Avid.

Apple like to have their own way, but they are playing with fire here, and they may well get burned if they do not take the trouble (and the cash) to sweeten the deal alot more than just loaning out some last gen based SoC devkits during the Rosetta changeover period.
I'm 99% sure they are "providing monetary support" to some of the big developers to bribe help them to transition to macOS ARM.

Luckily for Apple, in 2020, that's not a big deal for them, considering they have $200 billion in cash on hand burning a hole in their pockets. Dammit I wish I hadn't sold my Apple stock a dozen years ago...

BTW, the money they save by using A14 instead of A14X in MacBooks and MacBook Airs could pay for that ARM transition developer slush fund.
 
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RasCas99

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May 18, 2020
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You're assuming the outcome will be black and white. You still see plenty of AMD vs Intel argument, because while AMD's Zen is better than Intel on some fronts, they remain behind on others. There's no chance Apple's ARM Macs will beat x86 in every metric, nor any chance they will be behind in every metric, so those with an axe to grind will move the goalposts and claim that those outlier metrics are the ones that matter.

I partially agree , but i did state "Apple hit it out of the park" for the Armada camp so to say its overwhelmingly one sided , As an engineer with hobbies and biases and what not , I am able to say " I was wrong" given sufficient evidence , its not hard even when you have heated debates , some folks around here are posting for years , I believe they should be able to change their stance on the matter , again assuming sufficient evidence is presented , when discussing the topic over in Macrumors , its usually a bunch of folks who have no idea about CPU design and its really depressing to read sometime , here ppl are more knowledgeable and should , in theory , process the information better and conclude reasonable conclusions , nothing to do but wait and see i guess.
FYI I like reading your posts , cheers!
 
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name99

Senior member
Sep 11, 2010
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Don't underestimate the penny pinching instincts of a CEO.

Apple's entire brand (ARM core aside) has been about selling less for more.

It's part of what makes me so melancholy at Android manufacturers abandoning the added value features like external memory that made Android phones the better buy years ago, I mean apart from a UI that doesn't make me want to simultaneously vomit and commit homicide.

It's also not just about how much each SoC costs, it's also about how many you get per wafer, especially after binning for yield.

Exactly how accurate have you been in your Apple predictions ever?
But you remain convinced that you understand Apple including the psychology of their upper management?

Dear lawd, please stop with this perpetual re compile nonsense, C code can be re compiled to ARM with no great effort assuming that extra API's are not necessary to address, but hand written, optimised assembly is a different kettle of fish.

Big, old code bases like Maya, 3DS Max, Avid etc will have a ton of hand tuned x86 SIMD assembly code to replace, and probably a lot more now than there was at the time of the PPC -> x86 transition due to more features added in the last 15 years.

Those ancient behemoths bloat in size over time for a reason, and it's not just lazy coders.

The apps that have been pursuing mobile applications for awhile like Photoshop will likely transition much faster - or in the case of the likes of Affinity Photo already have both x86 and ARM code bases to draw from.

Hopefully in time new ML based compilers will be able to take C/Rust etc and churn out SIMD assembly that can match or exceed human written code - I have seen academic papers that address this subject already, so maybe not too far down the road if we are lucky, then perhaps automatic gfx API conversion can follow in time to migrate old gfx code to modern API's like Vulkan.

You mean this slide?


Sure, Apple can't change whatever custom x86 assembly is still stuck inside Maya. But they have done what they can to fix the problem across a range of open source apps and libraries...

This is your constant problem. You don't have a clue about Apple because you don't follow them closely, but you remain convinced that you know exactly how they think and what they are doing (apparently based on asking yourself "what would I do if I ran Apple").
Apple is interesting! How about you follow them accurately and try to learn from them, rather than assuming you already know everything and have nothing to learn? Learning is more fun!
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
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Exactly how accurate have you been in your Apple predictions ever?
But you remain convinced that you understand Apple including the psychology of their upper management?
Predictions aren't necessary when you have lived long enough to see most of their major products brought to the market.

This gives you all the information you need to know on their less is more attitude to business, it's not rocket science, just a business model that obviously works for them, I'm not stating otherwise.
You mean this slide?
Those are all (or mostly) open source code projects that Apple can contribute their own patches to.

That is they can contribute a patch, it won't necessarily land without the projects positive review and consent.

From what I have been told, no such patch has landed in the Blender mainline yet.

Speaking of open source, none of the applications I mentioned are, and most of those on the slide you mentioned are available elsewhere due to their being open projects
This is your constant problem. You don't have a clue about Apple because you don't follow them closely, but you remain convinced that you know exactly how they think and what they are doing (apparently based on asking yourself "what would I do if I ran Apple").
I have run Apple, the few most disagreeable modules I had during my 5 years in university forced me to use a Mac system - the only thing I was impressed by was the monitors and how much the university had wasted upon those computers when other departments were in dire need of upgrades and up to date software licenses.

I have also come across Apple phones often enough that I have never had any desire to buy one, before and long after my first smartphone purchase in 2011 (Samsung, also now overpriced in full hubris mode).
 
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defferoo

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Sep 28, 2015
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I have run Apple, the few most disagreeable modules I had during my 5 years in university forced me to use a Mac system - the only thing I was impressed by was the monitors and how much the university had wasted upon those computers when other departments were in dire need of upgrades and up to date software licenses.

I have also come across Apple phones often enough that I have never had any desire to buy one, before and long after my first smartphone purchase in 2011 (Samsung, also now overpriced in full hubris mode).
ah, so what you’re saying is you’ve barely used Apple products in real world scenarios, it all makes sense now.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
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ah, so what you’re saying is you’ve barely used Apple products in real world scenarios, it all makes sense now.
As mentioned I used Mac's for several university modules - while not constant everyday use it was enough that going home (or to alternate computer suites on campus) to Windows was a relief, and returning to the Mac's a chore I could just as easily lived without, considering that I was paying for the privilege with my not inconsiderable tuition fees.

I also know a few people who have used both Mac and Windows machines for work purposes during employment.

Their general impression was that if they controlled the business IT department that they would not have bought Apple, which comes back round to the overpriced for less/flashy business model - just look at the current Mac Pro's that have continued to stay Intel even as they were flailing with AMD rising in core capacity per socket and efficiency, from a business perspective it makes little sense to go Apple.

As for those who use the oft told 'stability' reasoning for business work on Mac's - for all the vaunted stability that they are supposed to have, I have witnessed crashes on Maya, Photoshop and Premiere running on it, as well as Avid Media Composer for film students and Steinberg Cubase with music tech students.

Obviously individual app instability is not Apple's fault, but when people that do free PR for Apple constantly reference Mac platform stability, it does become a little tired when you can see that it is demonstrably not true.
 
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ThatBuzzkiller

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Nov 14, 2014
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what a load. you don’t have to release your app on the iOS app store, you choose to because the market dictates that it’s good business sense. I don’t like to do tedious things, but if I get paid then it doesn’t suck as much. Let’s be honest here, if you dislike Xcode, you’ve probably never liked it, so how exactly does this transition affect you? You can continue using an Intel Mac to build your app as long as it can run the latest macOS which apparently is so bad that you could not possibly use it, yet millions of users continue to use it to run their businesses and as their personal machine.

Apparently, you don't have much real world experience in shipping applications if you make this statement ...

It is already now default behaviour for macOS to reject unsigned executables unless you build with Xcode and distribute your program through the App Store so what exactly is your suggestion for a real alternative ? Do you suggest that developers don't ship on macOS at all if they don't want either Xcode or the App Store to be forced down their throats ?

The difference here is that all the other attempts at using ARM CPUs in a computer we’re terrible and half-hearted. Nobody besides Apple has the capability or the will to make a decent ARM chip for a laptop or desktop. You call Windows on ARM an attempt? They basically said here’s a Windows machine, but you can’t run anything you‘re used to running, also it’s kind of slow, but battery life! Why would anybody buy that? If you can’t tell the difference between that and what Apple is doing, then this conversation is over.

'Half-hearted' ? Microsoft Office alone probably makes more money than all of Apple's in-house software applications combined and consumers still won't touch Windows on ARM despite Microsoft software being 10x more relevant than Apple's. If Microsoft can't compel people to purchase ARM systems for professional purposes with their own software then what chance does Apple have with their vastly inferior software quality ?

Also if you think Apple hardware is going to make a difference then why hasn't the Surface Pro X with Microsoft's SQ1 did this which has comparable perf/watt curve with the A12Z in the DTK ? There are many parallels to draw between the transition to ARM macs and Windows on ARM except the vendor behind the former is known to release poor quality software ...
 
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defferoo

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Sep 28, 2015
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Apparently, you don't have much real world experience in shipping applications if you make this statement ...

It is already now default behaviour for macOS to reject unsigned executables unless you build with Xcode and distribute your program through the App Store so what exactly is your suggestion for a real alternative ? Do you suggest that developers don't ship on macOS at all if they don't want either Xcode or the App Store to be forced down their throats ?
You’d be wrong about your first statement, but I guess that isn’t surprising given your posts.

Well, if you want to be technical about it, you can easily build and distribute applications on a mac without using the App Store. So you’re not locked in on that front, you should know that as a developer. If macOS is so terrible, would you really want to support it with your app? It’s already such a small percentage of the PC market, why not focus on Windows where everything is “open” instead? Oh wait, Windows is completely closed.

'Half-hearted' ? Microsoft Office alone probably makes more money than all of Apple's in-house software applications combined and consumers still won't touch Windows on ARM despite Microsoft software being 10x more relevant than Apple's. If Microsoft can't compel people to purchase ARM systems for professional purposes with their own software then what chance does Apple have with their vastly inferior software quality ?

Also if you think Apple hardware is going to make a difference then why hasn't the Surface Pro X with Microsoft's SQ1 did this which has comparable perf/watt curve with the A12Z in the DTK ? There are many parallels to draw between the transition to ARM macs and Windows on ARM except the vendor behind the former is known to release poor quality software ...
You didn’t even answer with a relevant response. Windows on ARM doesn’t support x64 apps. Even if it does have Office, that still isn’t enough. It is clearly half hearted. Where’s the Rosetta equivalent where you can basically run almost any app? What benefits do you get from buying a Windows on ARM machine? Basically nothing, besides the battery life, almost everything else is a con. Performance and compatibility are both missing, so why would you buy it if you had better alternatives for the same price? Anyway, we’ll see what happens, nobody can predict the future, but Apple has done this successfully before, twice, and Microsoft has tried this multiple times with lackluster results each time.
 

RasCas99

Member
May 18, 2020
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Predictions aren't necessary when you have lived long enough to see most of their major products brought to the market.

This gives you all the information you need to know on their less is more attitude to business, it's not rocket science, just a business model that obviously works for them, I'm not stating otherwise.

Those are all (or mostly) open source code projects that Apple can contribute their own patches to.

That is they can contribute a patch, it won't necessarily land without the projects positive review and consent.

From what I have been told, no such patch has landed in the Blender mainline yet.

Speaking of open source, none of the applications I mentioned are, and most of those on the slide you mentioned are available elsewhere due to their being open projects

I have run Apple, the few most disagreeable modules I had during my 5 years in university forced me to use a Mac system - the only thing I was impressed by was the monitors and how much the university had wasted upon those computers when other departments were in dire need of upgrades and up to date software licenses.

I have also come across Apple phones often enough that I have never had any desire to buy one, before and long after my first smartphone purchase in 2011 (Samsung, also now overpriced in full hubris mode).

You have so much bias and lack some basic understanding of tech on the cutting edge , its beyond astonishing for someone with informative tech posts.....

From all of your responses you seems to be a cost sensitive consumer (great!) , never had an iPhone , bashing Samsung for overpriced products and content with your old tech doing you service , its all nice and dandy , what you seem to miss is the fact that you have a great budget phone is BECAUSE someone has to put the R&D first to make it economically and commercially viable , so for example Samsung asking price for their newest display is higher NOW because they have to recoup the R&D investment , they do so selling it for a premium , a year or 2 goes by and BAM your 0 R&D Chinese OEM slaps it on his mid tier phone with the rest of the old premium components and you praise it as VALUE!!!! same for Qualcomm , Hynix and the rest of the parts that make out your great value phone.

that`s great , and it works out for you , but you need to understand that someone needs to pay the bill for TSMC 5nm R&D for example so you can get your great chips down the road it is NOT economically viable for TSMC to do it if their customers want to buy it for cheap to put in their budget phones (currently Apple are at the front of this) , if everyone wanted to spend 400$ on a phone , we wouldnt be making rapid progress across the industry in the rate we are doing now , you can look up the Apple HW margins 38% vs Intel 60% for example as to who is really gauging you when building a laptop.

2nd thing for you to consider , you have such a strong bias that you will not buy anything Apple for over a decade (or never actually) , not even giving them a chance , meaning your inputs as someone that tries to evaluate Apple tech\business is skewed , think about it , you cant even bring yourself to buy an iPhone , which by all accounts is a great device , battery life , performance , QC , display , maybe for 1 generation to evaluate where they are now days ? "you came across iPhones" is not the really the same as using one as a daily driver.

lastly , when discussing this transition (more on topic) , I want you to sit back and think about why is it that you are so negative about it ? and what will it take to convince you that this was the right move for Apple , you had this gem to write "because Apple felt like ditching x86. " at the end of another one of your negative posts , do you see the bias and hate oozing from your posts ? do you feel that Apple put all the required expensive engineering (which is a TON , unless you dont think that replacing the entire lineup of Intel is indeed a big R&D spending) and risk their small footprint in the PC space just to save money on CPU parts and aggravate everyone ? is this the grand plan here ? to do it as you wrote before "because they felt like it" , do you think this is how Apple make decisions ?

You are one of the folks (as one of the biggest posters in this thread) I would like to see evaluate the change from a technical POV once the systems are in the wild , and if the machines are better then Intel/AMD (you can decide that of course) , give them the credit , maybe , god forbid , buy one as a punishment!.

I will be waiting with Crow , lets see who eats it! i will be happy to say I am wrong with no disclaimers or asterisk.

One last thing if you may , so we can have it in writing somewhere , for crow eating purposes , can you provide some metrics in which we can say who "won" on the SoC design.
State few benchmarks/usecases you think are the most meaningful so we can have a baseline , for example i saw some usecase Intel are winning in some obscure SW 3x vs Ryzen , is this something i even think is relevant when i compare the 2 platforms ? of course not . When i compare AMD vs Intel , i like AMD much more this days and call them the "winning" CPU even tough they lose out on use cases.

Have a good day , sorry for the long post , not used to communicating over in forums as you can see .
 

RasCas99

Member
May 18, 2020
34
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Apparently, you don't have much real world experience in shipping applications if you make this statement ...

It is already now default behaviour for macOS to reject unsigned executables unless you build with Xcode and distribute your program through the App Store so what exactly is your suggestion for a real alternative ? Do you suggest that developers don't ship on macOS at all if they don't want either Xcode or the App Store to be forced down their throats ?



'Half-hearted' ? Microsoft Office alone probably makes more money than all of Apple's in-house software applications combined and consumers still won't touch Windows on ARM despite Microsoft software being 10x more relevant than Apple's. If Microsoft can't compel people to purchase ARM systems for professional purposes with their own software then what chance does Apple have with their vastly inferior software quality ?

Also if you think Apple hardware is going to make a difference then why hasn't the Surface Pro X with Microsoft's SQ1 did this which has comparable perf/watt curve with the A12Z in the DTK ? There are many parallels to draw between the transition to ARM macs and Windows on ARM except the vendor behind the former is known to release poor quality software ...

I believe that the first iteration of MS is not sufficient for this space YET , they will make it considerably better down the road ,and it will be a successful alternative to their Wintel monopoly , they have too , because if not they will be left out again out of a big market (this time established one) of consumer PC (they can keep their enterprise stranglehold) , they thought Intel can provide the chips they needed for the phones , and they lost 50% of the US phone market very quickly , they will not let Google eat their lunch again , and you can bet Google will be eyeing this transition carefully and once QC have good chips , they will jump on them ASAP and try to provide a better computer then current chromebooks , not to mention the OEM`s that will LOVE to have options so they can reduce the Intel/AMD crazy high margin CPU prices.
The entire industry aside from the current market leaders (wintel) have interest in disrupting the PC market , thats how it is always been in every tech sector.
If MS pulls the plug on Arm they do it in their own peril , I cannot believe they will be that hubris to think Intel cant fail (again) after they lost the biggest tech transition in history.
TLDR - I expect MS to iterate and QC to keep improving while ARM getting asked to develop more and more performance oriented Uarch to compete.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
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One last thing if you may , so we can have it in writing somewhere , for crow eating purposes , can you provide some metrics in which we can say who "won" on the SoC design.
State few benchmarks/usecases you think are the most meaningful so we can have a baseline , for example i saw some usecase Intel are winning in some obscure SW 3x vs Ryzen , is this something i even think is relevant when i compare the 2 platforms ? of course not . When i compare AMD vs Intel , i like AMD much more this days and call them the "winning" CPU even tough they lose out on use cases.
As with all things in IT, it depends on the use case and the customer - you can call something useless for pro DCC work but great for gaming, it's basically impossible to satisfy everyone.

The same can be said of my attitude towards Apple - I'm well aware that the other players int the market are not infallible, I just tend to favour almost everyone else, as they are all more open than Apple is, including MS.

If I could run every Windows app I have on Linux without fault, I would change my system to Linux in a flash - I just prefer open systems, and this is the anti thesis of Apple's entire business model.

Something that came back to me after writing the post about past Mac OS experiences was that when working on those university Mac's I was unable to save some data to my external USB hard disk.

I can't remember if it was formatted as exFAT or NTFS, but Mac OS was having none of it, something that puzzled me greatly as I had been able to access the same USB HDD with a jury rigged Android phone desktop setup using a HDMI/USB dock I had at the time.

Needless to say, finding that a ridiculously expensive Mac system did not support file system standards that had been around for years at the time was more than a little bit of a let down and eye opener into the level of Apple's closed system thinking - even some Android vendors supported it when a £1000+ Apple Mac did not.
 

RasCas99

Member
May 18, 2020
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As with all things in IT, it depends on the use case and the customer - you can call something useless for pro DCC work but great for gaming, it's basically impossible to satisfy everyone.

The same can be said of my attitude towards Apple - I'm well aware that the other players int the market are not infallible, I just tend to favour almost everyone else, as they are all more open than Apple is, including MS.

If I could run every Windows app I have on Linux without fault, I would change my system to Linux in a flash - I just prefer open systems, and this is the anti thesis of Apple's entire business model.

Something that came back to me after writing the post about past Mac OS experiences was that when working on those university Mac's I was unable to save some data to my external USB hard disk.

I can't remember if it was formatted as exFAT or NTFS, but Mac OS was having none of it, something that puzzled me greatly as I had been able to access the same USB HDD with a jury rigged Android phone desktop setup using a HDMI/USB dock I had at the time.

Needless to say, finding that a ridiculously expensive Mac system did not support file system standards that had been around for years at the time was more than a little bit of a let down and eye opener into the level of Apple's closed system thinking - even some Android vendors supported it when a £1000+ Apple Mac did not.

Thank you for the reply , I think we CAN do a CPU/Platform compare for the market they are targeting , we will have numbers and common sense , should be sufficient , the fact you are unwilling to provide any bar that apple can surpass in order to be a better machine then the current ones is unfair for Apple as it is trying to disrupt the monopoly (wintel).
You are supporting windows , which are the epitome of a monopoly in the PC space , and they are not slowing down , they have a stranglehold on the gaming market via DX , which is why for example Apple no matter what HW they have or will have/had hard time competing fairly vs MS in that space , so saying its "apple business model" is a bit shortsighted , all those companies are trying to keep users in their platform and bring more from the other ones.

Back on topic , again try and provide a bar for the MB Air/Pro variants which are rumored to come first to clear inorder to say Apple silicon surpassed its Intel counterpart , we can discuss the workstation bar later on when they arrive.

Easy solution is the eventual Anandtech review , I will assume they will make a very detailed review with tons of usecases and comparisons.
Or you can suggest a different one of course.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
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they have a stranglehold on the gaming market via DX
They don't - consoles have held that position for years.

Besides which if you take the tunnel vision glasses off you might notice I already mentioned Linux gaming is making great inroads with Proton/Wine/DXVK, there are AAA games released on Windows now that become playable on Linux immediately due to the improvements here.

I have no great love for MS either mind you, as mentioned I would happily switch to Linux if enough apps were available, and many I use are already.

As to perf comparisons against Apple systems, I made no mention of them on FS standards support.
 

name99

Senior member
Sep 11, 2010
445
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As with all things in IT, it depends on the use case and the customer - you can call something useless for pro DCC work but great for gaming, it's basically impossible to satisfy everyone.

The same can be said of my attitude towards Apple - I'm well aware that the other players int the market are not infallible, I just tend to favour almost everyone else, as they are all more open than Apple is, including MS.

If I could run every Windows app I have on Linux without fault, I would change my system to Linux in a flash - I just prefer open systems, and this is the anti thesis of Apple's entire business model.

Something that came back to me after writing the post about past Mac OS experiences was that when working on those university Mac's I was unable to save some data to my external USB hard disk.

I can't remember if it was formatted as exFAT or NTFS, but Mac OS was having none of it, something that puzzled me greatly as I had been able to access the same USB HDD with a jury rigged Android phone desktop setup using a HDMI/USB dock I had at the time.

Needless to say, finding that a ridiculously expensive Mac system did not support file system standards that had been around for years at the time was more than a little bit of a let down and eye opener into the level of Apple's closed system thinking - even some Android vendors supported it when a £1000+ Apple Mac did not.

exFAT and NTFS are "file system standards"? What exactly is a "standard" in your eyes?!?
What, exactly, makes NTFS a "standard" in a way that, say, APFS is not?
(And BTW Apple has had full FAT and FAT variants support since, I think, at least OSX 1.0, maybe even earlier...)

Your complaint has nothing to do with Apple, it has everything to do with "Windows is the only true way and anything else is unacceptable".
I've seen this over and over again. People who claim "x86 is a standard, ARM is not". People who complain that Apple is using h.264 instead of "the standard" of AVI!
We are seeing a variant of this now around ARM. Back when ARM performance lagged x86, people could talk about that and pretend to be techno-neutral; now that ARM performance is matching x86 the talk turns to "but it will still run my x86 code slower", with this bizarre inability to comprehend that much of the world is just not interested in your dusty deck x86 code from the early 80s.

Your language reveals your worldview. And that's fine; if your worldview is that you want everything to be done the MS way, whatever.
But don't pretend that this is some sort of technologically informed choice when it's simply the path of least resistance; you're familiar with a certain way of doing things and aren't much interested in learning about alternatives.
 
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soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
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Your complaint has nothing to do with Apple, it has everything to do with "Windows is the only true way and anything else is unacceptable".
As I said before, I was able to access that same HDD from an Android phone - a phone!

NTFS and exFAT were created by MS but are both supported on Linux systems and by some Android vendors.

If you are going to charge through the nose for less performant systems - and boy do they ever, they should at least be able to read/write to storage formatted on cheaper and far more commonplace systems.

Is it that hard to believe that when most of my work and data has been recorded on Windows, which has by far the biggest marketshare of any consumer desktop OS, that maybe, just maybe an incredibly expensive alternate computer system would at least support the file systems necessary to open or write to those files on external, portable media like USB flash and HDD's?

If your answer is no, then you only reveal just how little you expect from Apple for the pleasure of having your wallet reemed, and that is truly quite sad - either that or you are loaded and just don't care either way.
 

soresu

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Dec 19, 2014
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People who complain that Apple is using h.264 instead of "the standard" of AVI!
Ugh.....

This one sentence alone displays a degree of technical ignorance in you, which a mere Google search could reveal if you were inclined to do so and educate yourself.

H.264/AVC is a video codec - AVI is a video container format, which has actually been used as a container for AVC encoded video back when MP4 was not as prevalent, and MKV had not yet been fully developed let alone in mass use.

Loose as it was, AVI was for all intents and purposes a standard in the days of DivX and XviD encoded video, until MP4 and MKV began to be used and replaced it.

You are comparing my desire for file system interoperability to people complaining about AVI being dead, really?

The only reason I can think of anyone to complain about the loss of AVI is because they actually mean XviD encoded video, which is still fairly commonplace across the net even today, in the age of encoding far superior like HEVC, VP9 and AV1, which have themselves surpassed H264/AVC considerably, much to the joy of Google's Youtube bandwidth bean counters.

I imagine XviD is still popular because so much consumer hardware like digital TV's and STB DVD players support it, likely far more than even H264 at this point - that's just a question of age and interoperability.
 

Thala

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2014
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You didn’t even answer with a relevant response. Windows on ARM doesn’t support x64 apps. Even if it does have Office, that still isn’t enough. It is clearly half hearted. Where’s the Rosetta equivalent where you can basically run almost any app? What benefits do you get from buying a Windows on ARM machine? Basically nothing, besides the battery life, almost everything else is a con.

What benefits? How about the fastest 7W TDP tablet, which runs Windows and Linux, which lasts more than a whole workday. Invaluable tool in particular when i am travelling.

Besides Rosetta only translates 64 bit apps the same way as WoA only translates 32 bit apps. I bet you can run an order of magnitude more apps under WoA than under MacOS with Rosetta - simply due to the fact many more apps exists under Windows.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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you can look up the Apple HW margins 38% vs Intel 60% for example as to who is really gauging you when building a laptop.

One thing, Intel's margins aren't that high. While they might have high margin they also have high spending.

Apple net revenue 2019: 21%
Intel net revenue 2019: 29%

But Apple has been consistently at 20% while Intel was far lower at 15-17%(they say 2018/2019 increases are due to tax changes).

Apple also has an advantage in terms of revenue in that while a single product sold by Intel is in average of $110(ASP, do you think Newegg is making no money off of you selling it same as Intel's RCP?), Apple sells the entire system so a single system sold can be $800 or more. So Intel needs to sell 7x amount of products in order to get the same revenue number as a device manufacturer does.

If say Intel cut prices across the board by 50%, they wouldn't be earning 30% of every dollar sold, they'd be bleeding money.

What benefits? How about the fastest 7W TDP tablet, which runs Windows and Linux, which lasts more than a whole workday. Invaluable tool in particular when i am travelling.

You are overestimating the benefits of binary translation. Binary translation doesn't have perfect compatibility(because its trying to be something its not). The only vendor that could successfully have it working is Apple. Pretty much the mindset is different since they did such transition multiple times already. Also, they care less about compatibility and the market share is a fraction of a fraction of Windows.

Pretty much the greatest reason for binary translation is to keep the feet of the competition on fire. If AMD/Intel fell completely flat on its face and stopped advancing at all, people will have to put up with it and eventually they'll move to it.

As long as the x86 vendors are executing WoA is not relevant.
 
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Doug S

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Besides Rosetta only translates 64 bit apps the same way as WoA only translates 32 bit apps. I bet you can run an order of magnitude more apps under WoA than under MacOS with Rosetta - simply due to the fact many more apps exists under Windows.

Rosetta only needs to handle Mac applications, whether there are 10 or 10 million of them, and only needs to handle 64 bit x86 because that's all macOS supports. It is a temporary solution, since Apple is migrating, not adding a second platform like Microsoft. It is harder to convince developers to port when they all know that x86 will forever remain the primary Windows platform. Mac developers know they have to do it eventually, it is a matter of now or later, never is not an option.

The biggest problem Microsoft has with Windows ARM is that developers can't trust that the platform will be around in a couple years. They already added and then dropped a cut down version of Windows on ARM in the Windows 8 timeframe. They've previously supported and then dropped support for MIPS, PPC, Alpha and IA64, so they have a high hill to climb to convince developers to port to ARM because they can't fully trust Microsoft won't drop it as has been the fate of all non-x86 platforms in the past.

Apple migrating to ARM might be the shot in the arm (no pun intended) that Microsoft needs, because Mac users who buy an ARM Mac but still need to run Windows stuff gives developers who are on the fence about porting to ARM a bit more reason to consider it.
 

Doug S

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Feb 8, 2020
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'Half-hearted' ? Microsoft Office alone probably makes more money than all of Apple's in-house software applications combined and consumers still won't touch Windows on ARM despite Microsoft software being 10x more relevant than Apple's. If Microsoft can't compel people to purchase ARM systems for professional purposes with their own software then what chance does Apple have with their vastly inferior software quality ?

Also if you think Apple hardware is going to make a difference then why hasn't the Surface Pro X with Microsoft's SQ1 did this which has comparable perf/watt curve with the A12Z in the DTK ? There are many parallels to draw between the transition to ARM macs and Windows on ARM except the vendor behind the former is known to release poor quality software ...


Apple doesn't have to "convince" people to adopt the ARM platform. They aren't buying a Mac to get an x86 CPU, anymore than they used to buy one to get a PPC or an 68K. They buy a Mac, today they get one with an x86 CPU, tomorrow they get one with an ARM CPU. The user base will follow them, that much has been established through two previous migrations.

Microsoft has a very different problem trying to get people to want Windows/ARM, because they added it as a second platform. x86 is still the main Windows platform and will remain so for the foreseeable future. So they do have to "convince" people why they should choose ARM instead of x86, and I agree that there is absolutely no reason why they should.

Microsoft has added and abandoned non-x86 platforms too many times in the past so getting developers to port means not only making them believe there will be a market for their application running on ARM, but that their entire effort won't be wasted if Microsoft drops it. It is like trusting Google and relying on some new service they offer, when so many of them disappear into the 'google graveyard'.
 
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RasCas99

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May 18, 2020
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One thing, Intel's margins aren't that high. While they might have high margin they also have high spending.

Apple net revenue 2019: 21%
Intel net revenue 2019: 29%

But Apple has been consistently at 20% while Intel was far lower at 15-17%(they say 2018/2019 increases are due to tax changes).

Apple also has an advantage in terms of revenue in that while a single product sold by Intel is in average of $110(ASP, do you think Newegg is making no money off of you selling it same as Intel's RCP?), Apple sells the entire system so a single system sold can be $800 or more. So Intel needs to sell 7x amount of products in order to get the same revenue number as a device manufacturer does.

If say Intel cut prices across the board by 50%, they wouldn't be earning 30% of every dollar sold, they'd be bleeding money.



You are overestimating the benefits of binary translation. Binary translation doesn't have perfect compatibility(because its trying to be something its not). The only vendor that could successfully have it working is Apple. Pretty much the mindset is different since they did such transition multiple times already. Also, they care less about compatibility and the market share is a fraction of a fraction of Windows.

Pretty much the greatest reason for binary translation is to keep the feet of the competition on fire. If AMD/Intel fell completely flat on its face and stopped advancing at all, people will have to put up with it and eventually they'll move to it.

As long as the x86 vendors are executing WoA is not relevant.

Did you read the post i was replying to ? or just picked a line out of context ?

Also this line makes no sense : "So Intel needs to sell 7x amount of products in order to get the same revenue number as a device manufacturer does."
Why would Intel care to sell for the same revenue when they sell with such a high GM FOR ALL the manufacturers in the world! ? do you know the margins the OEM`s make ? if they cross the 5% they are amazingly well off (PC space) , Apple maintain high GM due to high margin services segment (still way lower then Intel).

Intel are making a killing , and leveraged their monopoly to dominate the PC market like no other component OR OEM in it , the fact we have no competition in this space and have a duopoly is crazy , AMD are not the good guys in this story either , once they have the better product they price it as high as Intel`s , which is highway robbery in regards to margins across the rest of the PC parts , you should applaud the Armada ! that will most def reduce CPU prices and bring better performance , competition is good and should be encouraged.

Back on topic , launch is around the corner , it would be nice to set the goal posts for the comparisons that will be coming fast and furious , but as i see that we have replies to such request as "every user is different" , I have no faith in folks changing their stance.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
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Pretty much the greatest reason for binary translation is to keep the feet of the competition on fire. If AMD/Intel fell completely flat on its face and stopped advancing at all, people will have to put up with it and eventually they'll move to it.

As long as the x86 vendors are executing WoA is not relevant.
Interesting perspective, that actually makes the most sense of any explanation I've seen for WARM's anaemic implementation effort on the part of MS.

OTOH they could be saving the real effort for another ISA competitor altogether sponsored by MS themselves.

They supposedly ported Windows 10 to be able to run on their E2 CPU project awhile ago.

E2 seemingly works closer to a GPU in terms of asset use, composed of lots of simpler cores which can be ganged together to act as more powerful logical units.
 
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