ARM Co-founder speculates on the future

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P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
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Thanks. That article had some great information.

I thought it was particularly interesting that Microsoft was looking for an engineer so it could run ARM in its bing data centers.

I dont think that is directly related to the architecture license. After all, you wouldnt want to hire a software engineer today to do software testing on a hardware platform that is only a white sheet of paper currently; and might only become silicon in ~5 years.

More likely MS is experimenting with ARM server hardware from other suppliers, like Marvel and considering its use in its own (massive) datacenters. That may or may not incentivise them to create their own arm server chips, but that would have nothing to do with that job ad.

My money is on an xbox chip first. Already they were heavily involved in the design of the current xeon CPU, and thats where it makes most sense to depart from existing ARM core designs, so getting an architecture license. For a tablet or phone, and even a server, cortex A9 and A15 respectively, seem pretty damn good; but for a game console you likely want a rather different core to address specific needs, and you may even want to add instructions for backwards compatibility with previous gen.

The only think making me doubt this, is the timing. Id wag they need at least 4-5 years to get a chip in a device in store shelves, and that would seem like a long time for the current xbox to stay on the market; I find it difficult to believe the design for the next gen xbox wouldnt be well underway by now, but who knows.

There was also speculation about MS having good reasons to support ARM on one of their future PC Operating systems.
We will see about that. Frankly, im not so sure. If they port windows 7 or 8 to ARM, who would want it? It wouldnt run any existing windows app, or at least not at acceptable speeds if they rely on emulation. Youd be better off with android/chrome/meego whatever which already have a considerable software portfolio. Even phone 7 would be a better choice.

That might change in the long run if MS manages to unify their mobile and desktop OSs, and really push .NET/XNA/Silverlight and the like. There is even the odd chance they will reinvent FX32! and rely on dynamic recompilation (which will kill the battery life and performance), its not an impossible task, but those are all really long shots so i wouldnt bet on it happening any time soon.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
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Few years ago, a document leaked that detailed Microsoft execs hatred towards Intel increasingly using Linux internally. The so-called "Wintel" alliance started falling since then I presume. It looks like the Atom was in early stages of development when that happened.

But a recent announcement had Microft, Intel and NEC for digital signage collaboration so maybe its only partially falling apart.
 

P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
254
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Few years ago, a document leaked that detailed Microsoft execs hatred towards Intel increasingly using Linux internally. The so-called "Wintel" alliance started falling since then I presume. It looks like the Atom was in early stages of development when that happened..

Its a result of competitive pressure IMO. Both Intel and Microsofts monopolies are increasingly under siege from below, and neither company can defend themselves properly without breaking the wintel alliance as they are both the underdog in the mobile market.

Intel needs linux to have any chance to succeed in the mobile space, just like microsoft needs ARM. As long as this is just for specific niches like phones, the alliance could probably be maintained for anything higher end, but then tablets started clouding (pun intented) the picture and if both chromeos and arm encroach even higher end markets, its going to become very hard (and suicidal) for either company to compete with this new threat with one arm (sorry for all the puns) tied behind their backs by relying almost exclusively on the other partner.

But a recent announcement had Microft, Intel and NEC for digital signage collaboration so maybe its only partially falling apart
Even direct competitors frequently work together on specific issues, as long as it serves the common interest of the parties involved. Besides, intel and ms arent going to stop cooperating any time soon if ever; they still depend on each other for the vast majority of their business and that is not about to change. Whats about to change (or has already changed) is that neither intel or microsoft will avoid competing with each other and avoid making business decision that could hurt the other half of the wintel alliance.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
Collaboration on digital signage means nothing. Think about the Toshiba manufactured cell chip in the PS3 which killed HD-DVD. Ironic.
 

P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
254
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0
Almost everyone has experience with Qt, at least as a consumer. You just dont know it. Its the basis of KDE (the DE used in kubuntu, Suse and many other distro's). Skype, VLC and a ton of other cross platform apps are based on it as well.

As a developer I have no real exposure to Qt, nor to meego. Therefore, no real opinion either Its a bit early day for meego, but Ill certainly give it a spin once it matures a bit more.

I did try Moblin's DE before it merged with Maemo in to meego. It clearly wasnt ready yet, and it wasnt for me, but I could see its appeal for social notworking types using netbooks. Ive also tried Maemo before it merged, and was thoroughly impressed by it. Both the GUI (for a phone at least) and the underpinnings. If Id have had a choice of phone back then, it would have been, without a doubt, a Nokia N900 instead of an android phone or the iphone I ended up with.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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But now that its been merged with Nokia's maemo in to meego, ported to ARM and managed by the linux foundation, I think it may well end up being a serious shot in the foot; if meego ever takes off, it will help ARM as much, if not more than intel, since Nokia's huge ARM customer base pretty much guarantees meego will be more ARM than x86 centric and to compete in the netbook space, ARM is perhaps more in need of a popular and more suitable OS than intel is.

(From my layman's perspective) With Meego it looks like Intel is banking on gains from smartphone level chip sales (handsets/thin form factor Tablets) being more important than any losses they might suffer from ARM in the notebook market.

We'll have to wait and see how these developments pan out? Smartphone x86 chips vs Notebook ARM chips? Which segment will grow the fastest and for what reasons?
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
(From my layman's perspective) With Meego it looks like Intel is banking on gains from smartphone level chip sales (handsets/thin form factor Tablets) being more important than any losses they might suffer from ARM in the notebook market.

Even if Intel takes 100% of the smartphone market its unlikely they'll be able to replace revenue they get from Notebooks(not Netbooks).
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
106
Almost everyone has experience with Qt, at least as a consumer. You just dont know it. Its the basis of KDE (the DE used in kubuntu, Suse and many other distro's). Skype, VLC and a ton of other cross platform apps are based on it as well.

As a developer I have no real exposure to Qt, nor to meego. Therefore, no real opinion either Its a bit early day for meego, but Ill certainly give it a spin once it matures a bit more.

I did try Moblin's DE before it merged with Maemo in to meego. It clearly wasnt ready yet, and it wasnt for me, but I could see its appeal for social notworking types using netbooks. Ive also tried Maemo before it merged, and was thoroughly impressed by it. Both the GUI (for a phone at least) and the underpinnings. If Id have had a choice of phone back then, it would have been, without a doubt, a Nokia N900 instead of an android phone or the iphone I ended up with.

I came across this article (from yesterday) while I was trying to learn a little bit more about Qt.

http://www.readwriteweb.com/mobile/2010/11/weekly-poll-are-nokias-changes.php

This week, Nokia provided an update on its Ovi Store's momentum, in terms of downloads. The company said it's now seeing 3 million application downloads per day, up from 2 million back in September. Over the past 12 months, 400,000 new developers have joined its Forum Nokia developer network and its Qt Software Development Kit (SDK) has been downloaded 1.5 million times. What's more, 92 developers have even seen their apps downloaded over a million times.

All these statistics point to one thing, says Nokia: turnaround is happening.

Although Nokia's Symbian platform is still tops in terms of worldwide market share, it has been losing ground in key markets (like the U.S.) to Google's Android mobile operating system, especially as the latter is pushed onto even cheaper, feature phone-like devices. Nokia is aware of the competition, however, and knows it must make changes in order to stay relevant in the rapidly changing mobile industry. It has been openly reaching out to developers over the past several months with a clear message: we're listening.

Nokia's new Qt SDK, launched at Nokia World this fall, resulted in a 70% reduction in lines of code and greatly simplified the process of developing for Nokia's mobile platforms, the company announced. It also hired a new CEO, Stephen Elop, formerly of Microsoft's Business Division, it has seen a number of top execs depart, and, just this week, saw the appointment of Jerri DeVard to a new position as Chief Marketing Officer. DeVard's hire is aimed at bringing "fresh thinking" to the company, Elop explained in a statement.

Nokia knows that its turnaround is never going to be complete, though. "There's never a checkered flag," said George Linardos, Nokia's VP of Ovi Media, because "the pace of innovation [in mobile] will only pick up."
 

ydnas7

Member
Jun 13, 2010
160
0
0
The thing that makes me curious about ARM's prospects in the high-performance space is that this space use to be dominated by higher performance RISC architecture before x86 invaded that space...if the highest performing RISC architectures of the time couldn't prevent domination by the lowliest of CISC architectures at that time then it just seems like an even taller order today for a traditionally low-performance RISC architecture like ARM to somehow step up its game and take on x86 in the performance space.

I agree, I used to use an Acorn Archimedes about 20 years ago (ARM based desktop). Nice machine, equivalent to low-mid end but current Wintel of the day. But time has been kind to CISC, the simplicity advantages of RISC are phenomenal at 32bit, 4 stage pipeline, but as architecture develops, new instructions become one of the few paths left to increase performance in an world bound by Amdahl's Law, so now we are back to CISC.

Atom may not be so much optimized for price/performance as Bobcat, but they both draw a line in the sand.

ARM has been good for X86, by undercutting the embedded market for the more powerful competitors (MIPS/PPC/SPARC/ALPHA)
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
http://qt.nokia.com/products/platform/meego

Does anyone have opinions or experiences with Meego Qt?

I wish, I had an N900 but returned in a few days. Of course it was running Maemo, not Meego. IMHO, from what little I know it is still quite unfinished. But if you wish there are x86 builds you can put on a netbook to try it. As for QT itself on Meego, I have no idea. It should work fine, one day. I can tell you that Nokia is one of worst software developers in the world. They have been trying to get QT on Symbian for years now. I have no idea if they did or if they screwed up again, which is par for the course for Nokia. This is coming from a long-time S60 user. I gave up on them a good while ago.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
Almost everyone has experience with Qt, at least as a consumer. You just dont know it. Its the basis of KDE (the DE used in kubuntu, Suse and many other distro's). Skype, VLC and a ton of other cross platform apps are based on it as well.

As a developer I have no real exposure to Qt, nor to meego. Therefore, no real opinion either Its a bit early day for meego, but Ill certainly give it a spin once it matures a bit more.

I did try Moblin's DE before it merged with Maemo in to meego. It clearly wasnt ready yet, and it wasnt for me, but I could see its appeal for social notworking types using netbooks. Ive also tried Maemo before it merged, and was thoroughly impressed by it. Both the GUI (for a phone at least) and the underpinnings. If Id have had a choice of phone back then, it would have been, without a doubt, a Nokia N900 instead of an android phone or the iphone I ended up with.

I had the N900, trust me you are much better off with the iPhone you have. It was very unfinished, but much better than Symbian. I need my phone to work for me, not the other way around.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
(From my layman's perspective) With Meego it looks like Intel is banking on gains from smartphone level chip sales (handsets/thin form factor Tablets) being more important than any losses they might suffer from ARM in the notebook market.

We'll have to wait and see how these developments pan out? Smartphone x86 chips vs Notebook ARM chips? Which segment will grow the fastest and for what reasons?

That is the plan, but even today's ARM based phones don't have the battery life people want (EVO 4G). Intel has a major uphill battle to get x86 into phones. It will take years I feel.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
106
I wish, I had an N900 but returned in a few days. Of course it was running Maemo, not Meego. IMHO, from what little I know it is still quite unfinished. As for QT itself on Meego, I have no idea. It should work fine, one day. I can tell you that Nokia is one of worst software developers in the world. They have been trying to get QT on Symbian for years now. I have no idea if they did or if they screwed up again, which is par for the course for Nokia. This is coming from a long-time S60 user. I gave up on them a good while ago.

That article I linked in post #60 hints at the trouble you mentioned.

However, it also reports Nokia's claim of 70% reduction in lines of code for the newest Qt release (4.7, September 21, 2010).

Nokia's new Qt SDK, launched at Nokia World this fall, resulted in a 70% reduction in lines of code and greatly simplified the process of developing for Nokia's mobile platforms, the company announced.
 
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P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
254
0
0
I had the N900, trust me you are much better off with the iPhone you have. It was very unfinished, but much better than Symbian. I need my phone to work for me, not the other way around.

Yeah, well, I admit I fancied a geek phone. First phone I know of that you could root. And install debs. Closest thing to running debian on a phone (some people actually installed ubuntu on it). I wouldnt have recommended it for my mother, but it was exactly what I wanted.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
In general, both usage model demand and power consumption has been increasing.

Even on cordless handsets. The handsets from 5 years ago had much better battery life between charges than the models now. Every generation it passes, the battery life goes down but the functionality goes up. Also, the newer models are "slower". It's kinda funny but true. Remember the old TV's that didn't have delay when you pressed the power button? The HDTV's take 2-3 seconds before anything appears on the screen. If you get the hardware to get DTV signals, even the channel switching is slower.

So what's the TDP Intel needs to achieve to be in smartphones at SoC-level?
 

P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
254
0
0
So what's the TDP Intel needs to achieve to be in smartphones at SoC-level?

TDP is only one of the criteria, and arguably the least important. I think most smartphone chips have a TDP in the range of 500-800mW. You could probably get away with 1W peak. But a phone will rarely, if ever hit its TDP, as not many will be folding on it.

The bigger problem is achieving low average, idle and standby power. And achieving high level of integration (wifi/4G/bluetooth radio's, camera controller, video and touchscreen controllers, power management controllers, GPS, etc etc). And preferably, it should be flexible so you can pick the components for the right product and market. Thats perhaps Intel's biggest challenge, and its not technical, its the business model. Its hard enough making the best mobile CPU, its just not possible to have the best (and cheapest) of all the other elements as well.
 

extra

Golden Member
Dec 18, 1999
1,947
7
81
"Intel, for its part, unsurprisingly disagrees with Hauser's comments, claiming that 'there's room for many [different architectures] to be successful,' "

I agree with Intel
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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Does anyone have opinions on how much Intel's acquisition of Infineon's wireless unit could help the company's situation in the handset market?

http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20100830corp.htm

P.S. In other articles I have read briefly it sounds like baseband chips are normally separate from the handset's CPU, but I have also read that Qualcomm Snapdragon integrates baseband directly into processor SOC itself. Significance? Power and cost savings? If so, How much could Intel gain by eventually integrating baseband into its own Atom handset SOCs?
 
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Dec 30, 2004
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In general, both usage model demand and power consumption has been increasing.

Even on cordless handsets. The handsets from 5 years ago had much better battery life between charges than the models now. Every generation it passes, the battery life goes down but the functionality goes up. Also, the newer models are "slower". It's kinda funny but true. Remember the old TV's that didn't have delay when you pressed the power button? The HDTV's take 2-3 seconds before anything appears on the screen. If you get the hardware to get DTV signals, even the channel switching is slower.

So what's the TDP Intel needs to achieve to be in smartphones at SoC-level?

tv--gotta fill the buffer for de-noising, error correction, etc.
It would be great to be able to tune instantly, and then press a button when you actually want to stay on that channel. Not sure if that's possible.

I, too, find it very annoying.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,488
153
106
Even if Intel takes 100% of the smartphone market its unlikely they'll be able to replace revenue they get from Notebooks(not Netbooks).

The way the markets are today, probably. But I see the smart phone market being at least an order of magnitude larger than the notebook market in five (5) years. And the disparity between them should grow with time as well. Notebooks are a dead end, since smart phones will be able to do nearly everything you would expect a mobile computer to do within a decade. If your primary business is in notebooks, now would be a very good time to diversify.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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The way the markets are today, probably. But I see the smart phone market being at least an order of magnitude larger than the notebook market in five (5) years. And the disparity between them should grow with time as well. Notebooks are a dead end, since smart phones will be able to do nearly everything you would expect a mobile computer to do within a decade. If your primary business is in notebooks, now would be a very good time to diversify.

It still sounds like there is room for a second device though. (even if the second device only differs in viewable area).

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20101202PD204.html

This leaves the following question in my mind: "How much extra value can ARM create by releasing more powerful Notebook chips?" If all it takes is smartphone chips with larger screens to put a dent in current netbooks, how much extra marketshare could ARM capture by going slightly beyond that each year? Or will AMD Brazos and/or Oaktrail be capable of countering this advance?
 
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cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/03/samsung-sells-one-million-galaxy-tab-units-throws-an-android-pa/

Samsung sells one million Galaxy Tab units (update: confirmed)

By Darren Murph posted Dec 3rd 2010 11:04AM

Wondering just how well a tablet would do if picked up and marketed by all four major carriers in America? We're still waiting for the breakdown within our borders, but there's hardly a doubt that the unprecedented carrier arrangement has helped Samsung shatter its estimates on Galaxy Tab sales. Purportedly, the outfit has just passed the one million mark in global sales of the 7-inch Android tablet, but Information Week is quick to point out that Sammy's not clear on whether that's units in the sales channel or units in the hands of consumers. Either way, one million's nothing to scoff at, particularly when you consider that only 600,000 had been sold as of November 22nd. The firm's now hoping to move 1.5 million of 'em by the year's end, and while that's still well short of the estimated seven million iPads that have been sold to date, it's a sales rate that we're sure no one at Samsung is kvetching about.

Update: CNET heard from a Samsung representative that the company hasn't officially announced the sales figure here, but hopefully we'll get some clarification soon. It's possible that the PR team simply isn't ready to dish out the number in official fashion yet. We'll keep you posted.

Update II: So, it's just what we expected -- the numbers are real, but Samsung wasn't quite ready to come clean with 'em. According to Kim Titus, Director of Public Relations for Samsung Mobile, the company has "sold one million Galaxy Tabs globally." Good on 'em!
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
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Speaking of Intel's push into the handset market, I found this article interesting:

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9199244/Is_Quadroid_the_new_Wintel_

Computerworld - "Wintel" is the term that for years defined Windows-based computers running Intel chips. Now a similar expression is emerging for smartphones: "Quadroid."

Quadroid is a term that refers to the Qualcomm chips used inside smartphones running the Android mobile operating system. The term, recently coined in a report by consultancy PRTM, could catch on, largely because Qualcomm provides 77% of the chips used in Google's Android phones. And the Quadroid alliance is expected to grow.

Like Wintel has been for PCs, Quadroid could push down profit margins for smartphone manufacturers, some analysts said. That might seem like a good thing to consumers but may not be so good for many phone makers.

Android itself is getting bigger each quarter. A dozen phone manufacturers worldwide have produced more than 90 different Android phone models. The platform is growing fast, having increased to 25% of all smartphones in the third quarter, up from nearly 4% in the third quarter of 2009, according to market research firm Gartner. Many analysts believe Android will be the No. 2 smartphone operating system by the end of 2010, behind Nokia's Symbian.

PRTM recently issued a report that called Android a "game-changer" for its sizable market share and fast growth. Android's role is enabled partly by a "warp speed" cycle time for starting and finishing a new phone design using Qualcomm chips inside Android phones. Cycle time is critical to how a manufacturer can improve its gross profit margin.

In 2008, PRTM noted, Qualcomm's QSD8250 chip set and Android's Donut 1.6 release led to an average product cycle time for various manufacturers of eight months. By late 2009, the cycle time was dropped to 4.5 months with the Qualcomm MSM7227 chip set, used with Android's Eclair 2.1 release, PRTM said.

May not be a win for phone makers

In its report, PRTM questioned whether the Quadroid combination could become the new Wintel, which is not necessarily a good thing for phone manufacturers. "Over the years, Microsoft and Intel have captured far more value than the makers of the PCs," PRTM's report said. "Will Quadroid become the new Wintel?"

PRTM believes that the emergence of Quadroid and other factors will drive down gross profit margins for handset makers to new lows -- in the 8% to 10% range -- that major PC makers such as Acer or Lenovo have seen. "Some handset companies may not survive," PRTM said.

Many analysts have predicted that a number of factors will lead to fewer major phone manufacturers, perhaps only three to five.

Dan Hays, a partner at PRTM, said in an interview that it is natural for industries with multiple players to consolidate down to a few. With Quadroid, he said, "it's becoming hard to tell one Android-based phone from another, and while app developers love that fact, it raises the bar for the minimum features a phone needs to do well. Standardization on Quadroid is driving in the exact same direction as occurred in the PC industry. It's increasingly difficult to tell one laptop from another, and the makers are fighting it out on price and have to be operationally excellent."

Jack Gold, an analyst at J.Gold Associates, also predicts smartphone vendor consolidation, although not right away. "Will all the Android vendors ultimately survive? Probably not, but I don't expect to see much fallout for the next two to three years." He said the market is growing too quickly to eliminate smartphone makers. After another two years, however, "there very well could be that fallout and/or acquisitions and mergers, but that is the way of tech."

Gold said that in the long term, Apple and BlackBerry maker Research In Motion will continue to have the highest profit margins, since they control their own destiny with their own ecosystems, where they make an operating system and control hardware components and manufacturing. In a similar vein, industry leader Nokia, with its Symbian OS, has the potential for higher smartphone margins, although it has not been successful in the U.S.

At the chip level, Gold said, Qualcomm clearly has the advantage in selling ARM-based chips used in smartphones and other devices, and it should continue to dominate for the next one to two years. But Gold warned not to count out several contenders, such as graphics chip maker Nvidia in tablet computers, as well as Marvel, Samsung and TI in smartphones and other devices. Intel is also developing mobile chips.

Gold agreed with PRTM that the Quadroid alliance will ultimately mean that vendors will "compete brutally to win customers," and Hays added that it's hard to say who would lose. Several Asian makers of Android devices such as Samsung, HTC and LG have come on strong in the past year in a market that also includes Motorola, Sony Ericsson, ZTE, Huawei, Acer and Dell.

Will Quadroid ultimately be good for customers? It might seem that if manufacturers are taking lower profits, that itself would lead to lower costs for consumers.

But PRTM noted that manufacturers facing a dramatically lower profit margin under Quadroid will try to differentiate themselves by considering new phone designs, new users experiences and new business models. "In short, they will need to act more like Apple while staying different from Apple," PRTM's report said.

PRTM said that in coming months and years, consumer demand for smartphones is bound to become more volatile. "Faced with many similar products based on the core technologies [such as Quadroid], fashion and viral enthusiasms will drive volume highs for successful products," PRTM said. "Meanwhile, good-but-not-great products will languish, calling for exceptional agility in vendors' manufacturing and supply chains."

Gold agreed that lower profit margins, while potentially lowering the cost of devices, will mean less investment by the manufacturers in research and new technologies, since they lack the money to fund it. "Short-term consumer gain is offset by longer-term loss of compelling and leading-edge devices from the vendors," Gold said.

Hays said that since PRTM published the Quadroid report in mid-November, many phone manufacturers have contacted the firm about the foretold pressure on profit margins and ultimate consolidation. "They are quite concerned," he said. "Apple is watching all of this closely and may be content to allow Quadroid to take its course, with consolidation likely."

How does this cycle time mentioned in the article affect Intel's ability to make inroads using Android? (At this time Intel has Wind River Android and Meego as targets for its Moorestown and Medfield platforms)

Meego or Android? Which one will become more successful for Intel?
 
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