Question ARM lawsuit against QCOM/Nuvia !

[Thibsie]

Arm Files Lawsuit Against Qualcomm and Nuvia for Breach of License Agreements and Trademark Infringement

Arm filed a lawsuit against Qualcomm Inc. and two of its subsidiaries (“Qualcomm”) and Nuvia, Inc. (“Nuvia”) in the US District Court for the District of Delaware for breach of certain license agreements with Arm and trademark infringement.

www.arm.com

Yummy, don't you think ?

 

[igor_kavinski]

Maybe most of the sensible decision makers at ARM jumped ship to Nvidia.

 

[Roland00Address]

Have you guys seen this!?

Arm Changes Business Model – OEM Partners Must Directly License From Arm

No More External GPU, NPU, or ISP’s Allowed In Arm-Based SOCs

www.semianalysis.com

Yeah we started talking about it a few posts earlier (post 64)

I am still in disbelief, and not sure if I should trust it. Sure there is a lot of smoke here, but the details matter and the story he is spinning from the limited details may not be the same story later announced to the greater public and arm customers.

A more limited version of this I totally believe may happen. Some form of threshold where once the device becomes so complicated with a performance threshold or total transistors you must pay more or use ARM ip.

 

[Doug S]

It is always dicey to read too much into claims that opposing parties are making in court filings. They will do their best to twist things out of context to make the other guy seem like a villain.

So until there's further proof I'm skeptical that ARM is making a wholesale change in its business model, but we have to remember that it isn't ARM making such calls it is Softbank. They might feel that since the Nvidia buyout was scuttled and the IPO market looks worse and worse as interest rates rise that it is worth taking a high risk but high reward strategy against Qualcomm.

I've always said I don't see how ARM as a business is worth anywhere near even $10 billion, let alone the $30 billion+ Nvidia was willing to pay, based on the revenue ARM has been getting and available ways to increase it without going nuclear (as this change in strategy would be) Softbank may feel this is the only way they can come close to getting back what they paid for ARM, and difference between continuing to operate ARM as-is versus destroying it is only a few billion so why not shoot for the moon?

Something like this might have been what Nvidia had planned to earn back the price they were willing to pay for ARM (or otherwise inserting themselves as the #1 seller of Android SoCs) because there's no way they could have justified that price with the way ARM has operated up until this point.

 

[DrMrLordX]

@Doug S

Yup. And SoftBank is desperate to offset losses on other investments as well.

 

[Gideon]

@Doug S

Yup. And SoftBank is desperate to offset losses on other investments as well.

Besides it would make sense for them to have a personal Vendetta for Qualcomm who played a major role in scuttling the Nvidia deal

 

[DisEnchantment]

Qualcomm already uses Adreno over Mali, and due to a license deal they cut with AMD some time ago, Mediatek may still be able to use Radeon in their products (currently Mediatek uses Mali in their Dimensity SoCs).

Besides NV, can any other ARM SoC vendor ship Mali in an SoC (at least if you want modern features) without attracting lawsuit from AMD/NV etc. LG/MTK/Samsung/QC and few more all have some agreement with AMD and MTK/LG have lost lawsuits in the past to AMD wrt GPUs.
Samsung working with AMD is much more than customizing Mali but also to fend off lawsuit from NV which sued Qualcomm and Samsung in the past.
Qualcomm paid for Adreno, MTK pays royalty fees to AMD and Samsung is integrating RDNA.
Intel paid big money to NV to do graphics.

From that perspective ARM should be willing to integrate IP for which they don't have an equivalent at least not without breaking IP rights.
So the article from Semianalysis would be stretching some facts if they were to say outright that ARM don't want to integrate 3rd party GPU IP.

 

[FlameTail]

In Legal Fight With Arm, Qualcomm Just Has A Microchip On Its Shoulder (NASDAQ:QCOM)

Qualcomm Incorporated and Arm, the British chipmaker owned by SoftBank, are in legal conflict for breach of contract and trademark infringement. Click here to read more.

seekingalpha.com

You must provide personal commentary with all posts in the CPU forum.
Only posting links or quotes is not allowed.

AT Mod Usandthem

 

[poke01]

I honestly think now Nuvia should stayed independent. Qualcomm is going have to settle.

 

[NTMBK]

ARM are shooting themselves in the foot here. Qualcomm building chips for laptops and desktops with Nuvia tech is their best chance ever at taking a big chunk of that market.

 

[FlameTail]

In Legal Fight With Arm, Qualcomm Just Has A Microchip On Its Shoulder (NASDAQ:QCOM)

Qualcomm Incorporated and Arm, the British chipmaker owned by SoftBank, are in legal conflict for breach of contract and trademark infringement. Click here to read more.

seekingalpha.com

According to their take, Qualcomm is on the wrong side.

Well, I don't care who is wrong and who is correct here, but whatever happens I hope the Nuvia IP isn't destroyed. That is too valuable.

 

[poke01]

According to their take, Qualcomm is on the wrong side.

Well, I don't care who is wrong and who is correct here, but whatever happens I hope the Nuvia IP isn't destroyed. That is too valuable.

Nuvia's IP is as good as Apple's. It must be released to the public so that Apple will not slack off with their ARM cores.

 

[Thala]

Well, I don't care who is wrong and who is correct here, but whatever happens I hope the Nuvia IP isn't destroyed. That is too valuable.

The reason ARMs claims are weak is, that Qualcomm is in the situation to re-create the Nuvia IP after they destroyed it - they did hire the people who designed the Nuvia cores. The whole lawsuit centers around the claim, that Qualcomm (according to ARM) did not have enough time to re-create the Nuvia IP after destruction. ARM does NOT claim, that Qualcomm is not allowed to create such a core.
So what ARM/Softbank is trying here is to delay the release.

 

[Thala]

Nuvia's IP is as good as Apple's. It must be released to the public so that Apple will not slack off with their ARM cores.

Make no mistake, the Cortex-X3 is already very close to the Apple core IPC wise. A quick calculation based on the Cortex X1 give the following picture:

Geekbench 5.4 ST for X1 @ 3GHz: 1250
X1 -> X3 (25%) = 1562
X3@3GHz -> X3@3.6GHz = 1875

Thats close to M2.

 

[FlameTail]

Make no mistake, the Cortex-X3 is already very close to the Apple core IPC wise. A quick calculation based on the Cortex X1 give the following picture:

Geekbench 5.4 ST for X1 @ 3GHz: 1250
X1 -> X3 (25%) = 1562
X3@3GHz -> X3@3.6GHz = 1875

Thats close to M2.

Yeah good. ARM cores have excellent Performance per Area.

But is it as efficient as Apple's Big core?

 

[FlameTail]

Btw, Andrei Frumusanu left Anandtech and joined Qualcomm-Nuvia. ( he said this in a reddit comment as I remember).

Imo that's fantastic. Can't explain why, but the idea of buying a laptop with an SoC whose design is contributed to by the legendary Andrei greatly excites me.

 

[Thibsie]

According to their take, Qualcomm is on the wrong side.

Well, I don't care who is wrong and who is correct here, but whatever happens I hope the Nuvia IP isn't destroyed. That is too valuable.

Well, that article is as thin as cigarette paper.
There's basically nothing in this article.
I could have written it myself, and really dunno much about the subject.

This is just an article about the patent system and ARM/QC are just the little image to make us think it contains anything at all.
Very poor IMO.

 

[Doug S]

The reason ARMs claims are weak is, that Qualcomm is in the situation to re-create the Nuvia IP after they destroyed it - they did hire the people who designed the Nuvia cores. The whole lawsuit centers around the claim, that Qualcomm (according to ARM) did not have enough time to re-create the Nuvia IP after destruction. ARM does NOT claim, that Qualcomm is not allowed to create such a core.
So what ARM/Softbank is trying here is to delay the release.

That would take a long time, and delay them by at least a year and perhaps two. That's going to be expensive for Qualcomm, so if they believe that outcome has a reasonable possibility then it may make sense for them to settle.

I can't make any judgments about ARM/Softbank's strategy here without knowing the real facts. The longer we go with Qualcomm's claims about ARM licensing changing with zero evidence (and at least one CEO of an ARM licensee speaking up and saying they have not had any communication about any changes on their end) the more likely I think Qualcomm is flat out lying in their assertions about changes to ARM's business model - that they are trying to spread FUD among ARM's customers hoping that will cause them to settle.

We all have to keep in mind how Qualcomm operates in the world of intellectual property - they think everything is theirs, they are entitled to payment for everything, and will sue anyone and everyone to bully others into compliance. We've never seen such a nasty streak at ARM (or Softbank, for that matter) before so the idea that ARM is just trying to destroy poor innocent Qualcomm by delaying/killing their Nuvia cores for no reason will take a LOT of evidence to back it up!

 

[FlameTail]

Yeah, Qualcomm most definitely is neither poor or innocent. XD

 

[DrMrLordX]

We all have to keep in mind how Qualcomm operates in the world of intellectual property - they think everything is theirs, they are entitled to payment for everything, and will sue anyone and everyone to bully others into compliance. We've never seen such a nasty streak at ARM (or Softbank, for that matter) before so the idea that ARM is just trying to destroy poor innocent Qualcomm by delaying/killing their Nuvia cores for no reason will take a LOT of evidence to back it up!

Any outcome that results in Nuvia products not reaching market is going to suck for the consumer.

 

[FlameTail]

An out-of-court settlement would be the best thing, right ?

 

[Doug S]

An out-of-court settlement would be the best thing, right ?

It would be quicker, and has less downside risk for each side. But their positions are so far apart now I don't think either is willing to move enough to reach the middle, and unless/until one feels they are very likely to lose (which typically only happens after the trial has started) I don't think either will consider opening discussions with the other side about a settlement.

 

[Thala]

It would be quicker, and has less downside risk for each side. But their positions are so far apart now I don't think either is willing to move enough to reach the middle, and unless/until one feels they are very likely to lose (which typically only happens after the trial has started) I don't think either will consider opening discussions with the other side about a settlement.

The positions are not really apart. The only open question is, if Qualcomm has destroyed the Nuvia IP or not. Qualcomm claims yes, but ARM says they have evidence that it is not destroyed. Of course ARM can not really prove this without insider knowledge.
And most likely there are some different views of the definition of "destroyed IP" I guess.

 

[R81Z3N1]

Ok folks seems we have a party crasher.

Arm replies to Qualcomm's claims of biz model changes, more

Softbank's chip designer warns US giant may lose all of its CPU licenses at this rate

www.theregister.com

yep seems that ARM is going to change their business model after all. When asked they did not answer the question but re-directed to blame Qualcomm and gave some very murky responses. This is the time they could of put things to rest but expect more drama, and I agree that this is just posturing, but not doing ARM any favors, I expect more clarification in weeks to come if they truly are not going to change business model.

R81Z3N1

 

[gdansk]

Ok folks seems we have a party crasher.

Arm replies to Qualcomm's claims of biz model changes, more

Softbank's chip designer warns US giant may lose all of its CPU licenses at this rate

www.theregister.com

yep seems that ARM is going to change their business model after all. When asked they did not answer the question but re-directed to blame Qualcomm and gave some very murky responses. This is the time they could of put things to rest but expect more drama, and I agree that this is just posturing, but not doing ARM any favors, I expect more clarification in weeks to come if they truly are not going to change business model.

R81Z3N1

That article doesn't say anything new as far as I can tell. Qualcomm and ARM continue to disagree as to whether a license transfer approval is required.

It is a very boring lawsuit about some marginal royalty rates debating the exact meaning of contract terms. Unfortunately it has the potential to delay promising technology from coming to market.

 

[KompuKare]

The lawsuit's ultimate outcome: more investment in RISC-V!