ARM vs. Intel vs. AMD

[Red Storm]

An arm tablet can not even run a full fledged web browser let alone real programs. Apps are ok but I want real programs on my tablet. I have played with a few android tablets that the ARM could not even run the basic OS smooth.

This. I personally do not get all the hubbub about Windows 8 on ARM. The only reason why I ever use Windows (excluding when I'm at work) is to play real games on Steam or use other programs designed for x86 chips. Take that away and I have no reason whatsoever to use Windows.

 

[Idontcare]

FYI amd has a tablet version of zacate that runs at 5.9 watts for tablets the Z-01. Next gen zacate should be even much better at 32nm next year.

An arm tablet can not even run a full fledged web browser let alone real programs. Apps are ok but I want real programs on my tablet. I have played with a few android tablets that the ARM could not even run the basic OS smooth.

I don't see any market for a ARM based desktop any time soon. The current Zacate is cheap and many times more powerfull.

Here is preview of the world of hurt Android and the Ipad tablets are in for next year once W8 hits.

http://www.techspot.com/review/441-msi-windpad-110w-windows-8/page5.html

I can't help but LOL a little bit when I see people think they are preaching about Zacate/AMD stuff to CTHo9305 Preach on, you tell him all about next-gen Zacate I'm sure he's quite interested to know what people think it is going to be like.

 

[Genx87]

FYI amd has a tablet version of zacate that runs at 5.9 watts for tablets the Z-01. Next gen zacate should be even much better at 32nm next year.

An arm tablet can not even run a full fledged web browser let alone real programs. Apps are ok but I want real programs on my tablet. I have played with a few android tablets that the ARM could not even run the basic OS smooth.

I don't see any market for a ARM based desktop any time soon. The current Zacate is cheap and many times more powerfull.

Here is preview of the world of hurt Android and the Ipad tablets are in for next year once W8 hits.

http://www.techspot.com/review/441-msi-windpad-110w-windows-8/page5.html

Windows 8 has the potential to make real inroads into the tablet space for Microsoft. x86 however doesnt. 2:23 under load and 4:18 at idle wont cut it in the tablet market. ARM based designs are getting double at load what that does at idle.

 

[quest55720]

I see no difference between a arm W8 tablet and what is out there today Under powered hardware running phone apps blown up to a bigger screen.. Might as well get an Ipad that will have much more support and apps. Now W8 86 is a whole new ball game in the tablet arena. You get real programs and not limited to angry birds, gimped browser and video watching. I can install the same programs on that W8 86 tablet that I use on my desktop at work or home and be completely Mobile. I can't wait to get a W8 86 tablet at work.

 

[-Slacker-]

Well with what market share? x86 tablets have been on the market for years. But the sales numbers were pathetic. The biggest single brand for Tablets is the iPad\iPad2. That doesnt use an x86 chip. The rest of the top 5-10 is litered with Android based designs not using an x86 chip. So it is hardly a win for x86 if they own a miniscule % of the market. As the market continues to expand, x86 is not the markets leader in any shape or form. Microsoft knows this and built Windows8 so it can run on ARM designs.

Here is an idea where x86 is in the tablet market.

Q2 marketshare data. iPad2 =68.2, Android = 26.8%. That leaves 4.9% for windows based x86 designs.

And, on the other side of the pond, ARM holds zero % of the desktop/laptop market.

I never said x86 won the ultramobile market.

 

[Voo]

Are you under the impression ARM based Windows 8 computers will be in the high end? Expect ARM to be in Win8 Tablets, and possibly start to get into low end laptops.

ARM doesnt require the performance crown to be a force.

I don't see how you come to that conclusion - especially after "ARM CPUs make lots of sense in tablets" is the FIRST sentence of the thing you quote.

No the point is, that all the talk about ARM being superior to x86 in power consumption completely ignores the performance of the compared CPUs (well and most people cite power consumption without understanding what is measured.. eg ARM usually excludes caches when quoting numbers). You can't scale a design for low performance up, just as you can't scale a high performance design down. Well you can, but you won't get the best results and there are limits - even ignoring ARM/Intel here, IBM showed the second one nicely.

As soon as we get ARM designs even in the same ballpark as modern x86 CPUs they will need comparable amounts of energy. And honestly it's much simpler creating a simple, not especially well performing architecture with low power consumption than creating a high performance architecture (after all those are power limited just as well).

 

[Genx87]

I see no difference between a arm W8 tablet and what is out there today Under powered hardware running phone apps blown up to a bigger screen.. Might as well get an Ipad that will have much more support and apps. Now W8 86 is a whole new ball game in the tablet arena. You get real programs and not limited to angry birds, gimped browser and video watching. I can install the same programs on that W8 86 tablet that I use on my desktop at work or home and be completely Mobile. I can't wait to get a W8 86 tablet at work.

What makes you believe Microsoft wont eventually provide office products for Win8 ARM based products???? And when they do, the battery life will be a hell of lot better than x86 designs.

 

[Genx87]

And, on the other side of the pond, ARM holds zero % of the desktop/laptop market.

I never said x86 won the ultramobile market.

x86 tablets are basically non-existent. Having a product out there is different than actually having a product.

Hardly a win for x86 as ARM hasnt even tried breaking into that market yet. Nvidia's project Denver should be the first device that can start challenging low end laptops. I'd expect that sometime in 2013.

 

[CTho9305]

FYI amd has a tablet version of zacate that runs at 5.9 watts for tablets the Z-01. Next gen zacate should be even much better at 32nm next year.

You can't stick a 5.9 watt SOC in something the thickness of an iPad 2. I have to admit that I haven't yet played with a Z-01-based tablet, but I'd expect it to be considerably thicker and heavier than even an iPad 1.

An arm tablet can not even run a full fledged web browser let alone real programs. Apps are ok but I want real programs on my tablet. I have played with a few android tablets that the ARM could not even run the basic OS smooth.

I don't see any market for a ARM based desktop any time soon. The current Zacate is cheap and many times more powerfull.

Zacate is 18 watts; I don't think anybody even makes ARM SOCs that consume that much power. If we compare Ontario at 9 watts, I don't think it's "many" times faster (at least if you focus on the core, rather than benchmarks that stress the DRAM interface or maybe GPU). If you can get your hands on a decent Android tablet you should be able to run benchmarks and confirm that.

As for Android, I personally think it's effectively the cheap Chinese knock-off....everything is almost good... and it's all slow because they don't bother to properly GPU-accelerate things like scrolling. I really think you have to compare the iOS experience, which I view as a system done right (an iPhone 1 could scroll smoothly, and yet a 4X faster Tegra2 can't??? Come on!). The Samsung Galaxy S2 is the first candidate I've seen for a possible example of Android done right. But idontcare should probably preemptively stop me from getting into an Android/iOS flame war in his forum .

I'm skeptical about your web browser claim; given the factor-of-many speedups in the past few versions of Firefox, I would expect an up-to-date rendering engine would be pretty pleasant to use on a decent tablet. You can actually see these differences in browser benchmarks on tablets with different software versions.

As for desktops, I wouldn't expect to see a big ATX-form-factor kind of ARM desktop, but if I didn't play StarCraft 2 and there was an ARM version of Lightroom that was properly GPU-accelerated, I suspect I would be able to replace my desktop with an ARM A15-based set-top-box form factor machine. But we'll see how A15 performs when it's actually available.

Here is preview of the world of hurt Android and the Ipad tablets are in for next year once W8 hits.

http://www.techspot.com/review/441-msi-windpad-110w-windows-8/page5.html

3 hours of use / 6 hours idle? I suspect if the ARM guys appear to be quaking in their boots it's because they're actually laughing too hard to stay still. Some macworld review (first google result) I found looped a movie on an iPad 2 with the screen at full brightness and WiFi enabled for 8 hours. From personal experience with a Zacate-based laptop (with great battery life) as compared to a laptop with more average battery life I can say that those hours really do make a difference. I don't worry about whether or not I'm plugged in with the Zacate (as I write this I notice that I'm not, even though the adapter is right next to me), but on machines with a 3-4 hour battery life it is something I consider.



To be clear, I think Zacate is fantastic in its target market, but I think anyone discounting ARM as a potential player is making a mistake, and I haven't been "wowed" by the x86 tablets I've seen.

What makes you believe Microsoft wont eventually provide office products for Win8 ARM based products???? And when they do, the battery life will be a hell of lot better than x86 designs.

Microsoft's original Windows-on-ARM demo showed Office running. It already exists.

 

[quest55720]

There will be a new generation or maybe 2 of the zacate before W8 86 makes it out. AMD can easily cut the TDP further and improve performance. They still can add the newer vliw4 GPU on board that will let them add either more shaders or lower die size and TDP. That and getting it on the 32nm process will be huge. Also W8 86 is not even done yet. I am sure there will be plenty of tweaks built in it for the mobile market. IOS is very optimized for max battery life. I am sure when W8 86 launches there will be a zacate tablet with 6-8 hours of battery life around that time. Lets not forget Arm has been doing the ultra low wattage for a very long time. This is AMD's first serious attempt and well hit it out of the ball park.

 

[SickBeast]

My Android phone scrolls smoothly, and I prefer it over the iPhone for a number of reasons.

You can call it a knock off or a cheap imitation all you want, CTho, however the fact remains that Apple's software is based upon Linux, not the other way around.

I'm quite impressed by what these ARM chips can do paired with Android.

Someone else said that there is not a true browser on Android. This is completely false. You can do anything in the modern Android browser, including Flash.

Windows and x86 are too bloated for phones, and really, they are late to the game in terms of tablets. The app compatibility would be nice, but 95% of them would be too bloated to run effectively anyhow.

Intel and AMD are in trouble because there is no need for a faster x86 processor for 99% of people who run a desktop computer. For the rest of the market, ARM has a lot of growth potential whereas Intel and AMD can only offer something inferior at this point.

 

[jpiniero]

Intel and AMD are in trouble because there is no need for a faster x86 processor for 99% of people who run a desktop computer. For the rest of the market, ARM has a lot of growth potential whereas Intel and AMD can only offer something inferior at this point.

This is true, but from what I got from Intel's IDF, they are finally taking ARM seriously now. Does that mean we will get an Haswell Atom @ 1 Watt? Who knows. But that seems to be the target. I do think that if they are able to do so, you will see x86 Android (or w8) tablets. Of course that would also mean people would want to buy said tablets

 

[soccerballtux]

What's holding ARM processors back from overtaking Intel and AMD? They seem more powerful with less energy (yes, Intel and AMD are more powerful overall.) What about the ARM architecture makes it possible to use less energy as opposed to Intel and AMD processors.

less energy because less work being done. IE fewer transistors being flipped.

 

[soccerballtux]

I think it will be very interesting to see what people do with the next 2-3 generations of ARM cores.

the 28nm dual core ARMs at 2Ghz coming out in 2012 with 2GB RAM will be enough most of us need for replacing the desktops we use for content consumption.
that's why the next android version, Ice Cream Sandwich, is about this:

Combining their phone and tablet codebase.
It's so that you can then do this:

We probably won't see a phone doing that until 2013, unless Google preempts it all (they'd have to be stupid to not see this coming and not drive the tech forward before Apple does).

Then once you can do that with your phone, you do this with the tablet that you just docked it into:

which has the necessary HDMI out to hook up to your 24" desktop display and the USB ports for taking your mouse and keyboard.

We should be shorting Intel and buying ARM long.

I don't know why more people haven't been talking about this but we're only about 2 years away from it very exciting times.

 

[quest55720]

My Android phone scrolls smoothly, and I prefer it over the iPhone for a number of reasons.

You can call it a knock off or a cheap imitation all you want, CTho, however the fact remains that Apple's software is based upon Linux, not the other way around.

I'm quite impressed by what these ARM chips can do paired with Android.

Someone else said that there is not a true browser on Android. This is completely false. You can do anything in the modern Android browser, including Flash.

Windows and x86 are too bloated for phones, and really, they are late to the game in terms of tablets. The app compatibility would be nice, but 95% of them would be too bloated to run effectively anyhow.

Intel and AMD are in trouble because there is no need for a faster x86 processor for 99% of people who run a desktop computer. For the rest of the market, ARM has a lot of growth potential whereas Intel and AMD can only offer something inferior at this point.

If you read that link that has a tablet running W8 you would see how much it will change the tablet game. That is just small taste of what is to come. W8 is still in pre beta stage and not even tuned for performance and battery life yet.

If you want phone apps blown up then android/IOS tablets are perfect. If you want real programs on a full blow OS W8 tablets are for you.

I think this quote from the article says is it all.

"I already prefer Windows 8 to the latest Android and iOS operating systems as it feels polished, powerful and interactive."

http://www.techspot.com/review/441-msi-windpad-110w-windows-8/page5.html

 

[Lonbjerg]

the 28nm dual core ARMs at 2Ghz coming out in 2012 with 2GB RAM will be enough most of us need for replacing the desktops we use for content consumption.
that's why the next android version, Ice Cream Sandwich, is about this:

Combining their phone and tablet codebase.
It's so that you can then do this:

We probably won't see a phone doing that until 2013, unless Google preempts it all (they'd have to be stupid to not see this coming and not drive the tech forward before Apple does).

Then once you can do that with your phone, you do this with the tablet that you just docked it into:

which has the necessary HDMI out to hook up to your 24" desktop display and the USB ports for taking your mouse and keyboard.

We should be shorting Intel and buying ARM long.

I don't know why more people haven't been talking about this but we're only about 2 years away from it very exciting times.

You just made me *ROFL*

"almost"..."enough"..."for most of us"...LOL

Good one.

There is no way in hell I am going to take such a big step BACKWARDS in performance

 

[soccerballtux]

You just made me *ROFL*

"almost"..."enough"..."for most of us"...LOL

Good one.

There is no way in hell I am going to take such a big step BACKWARDS in performance

then you must not be most of us.

I, grandma, family, friends just load tabs while streaming music in the background.
In 2 years time we will have no need of Intel or AMD anymore. We'll have a Windows x86 machine at work I suppose but no need for one at home.

 

[Lonbjerg]

then you must not be most of us.

I, grandma, family, friends just load tabs while streaming music in the background.
In 2 years time we will have no need of Intel or AMD anymore. We'll have a Windows x86 machine at work I suppose but no need for one at home.

Actually, I was thinking users here, when you started with most of you.
But I do WAY more than listen to musik.

I game, transcode, run VM's..no way in hell a puny (Yes it's performance is a joke compared to a x86 CPU...even AMD's Dulldozer) ARM CPU will be able to do that.

And good luck thinking that all x86 software will be ported to ARM...or that ARM has any real power.

You sound like you ate some serious PR and forgot about reality.

 

[podspi]

I agree that is where the future is going. I doubt it would entirely replace desktops, as more power is always good, but for casual content consumption this is likely the future. Honestly, it is a little scary. I don't like the walled garden approach, and app stores make me uneasy. I refuse to buy anything that can't be rooted or jailbroken. And I prefer something with an open bootloader...

 

[Dadofamunky]

I think eventually Arm will just be in phones. I see the bobcat and the sucessor to the atom taking over the tablet market once W8 comes out. I think it would be a waste for AMD to go after the phone market. The margins are just way to small to invest money into. ARM and NVIDIA have no other real choice other than to chase those low margin markets.

Yeah, in 4 Billion - 5 Billion phones across the world.

 

[Dadofamunky]

Actually, I was thinking users here, when you started with most of you.
But I do WAY more than listen to musik.

I game, transcode, run VM's..no way in hell a puny (Yes it's performance is a joke compared to a x86 CPU...even AMD's Dulldozer) ARM CPU will be able to do that.

And good luck thinking that all x86 software will be ported to ARM...or that ARM has any real power.

You sound like you ate some serious PR and forgot about reality.

And things like Photoshop, content creation, music composition, all of which can be done on a tiny 10-inch screen...

 

[Blitzvogel]

FYI amd has a tablet version of zacate that runs at 5.9 watts for tablets the Z-01. Next gen zacate should be even much better at 32nm next year.

An arm tablet can not even run a full fledged web browser let alone real programs. Apps are ok but I want real programs on my tablet. I have played with a few android tablets that the ARM could not even run the basic OS smooth.

I don't see any market for a ARM based desktop any time soon. The current Zacate is cheap and many times more powerfull.

Here is preview of the world of hurt Android and the Ipad tablets are in for next year once W8 hits.

http://www.techspot.com/review/441-msi-windpad-110w-windows-8/page5.html

I enjoyed that read. Looks like a very good product. I'm pretty much dead set against the idea of buying into an ARM tablet (and tablets in general, as I don't need one), but seeing one that sticks well to x86 conventions, despite the increases in power consumptions does make the idea much more interesting to me. I wonder how many watts could be shaved off with a move to 32 nm (maybe 2W?). I also want to see what it would be like playing the original CoD on it too, since you know it's an operating environment the software we already enjoy should work on.

AMD also can't get their quad-core/160 SP versions of these chips out soon enough either. AMD has a performance lead in this segment, and they need to maintain it, since it's one of the few sure things they have at the moment.

No, I don't hate ARM. In fact I find it very interesting (especially Nvidia's Kal-El). Everything I find important as far as computing goes, however, revolves around x86. Exciting times are ahead. ARM and x86 will really butt heads and there is no telling how things may end up at the moment, though there is no stopping x86 in the short term. It's way too powerful to give up.

 

[Genx87]

3 hours of use / 6 hours idle? I suspect if the ARM guys appear to be quaking in their boots it's because they're actually laughing too hard to stay still. Some macworld review (first google result) I found looped a movie on an iPad 2 with the screen at full brightness and WiFi enabled for 8 hours. From personal experience with a Zacate-based laptop (with great battery life) as compared to a laptop with more average battery life I can say that those hours really do make a difference. I don't worry about whether or not I'm plugged in with the Zacate (as I write this I notice that I'm not, even though the adapter is right next to me), but on machines with a 3-4 hour battery life it is something I consider.

My transformer can watch movies for 8 hours straight. Idle? It can be days before it needs a charge. I watched a movie Thurs night, GF has played angry birds off an on during the day Friday. Was doing email and web browsing last night. Saturday as I type it still has 37% charge.

 

[quest55720]

I enjoyed that read. Looks like a very good product. I'm pretty much dead set against the idea of buying into an ARM tablet (and tablets in general, as I don't need one), but seeing one that sticks well to x86 conventions, despite the increases in power consumptions does make the idea much more interesting to me. I wonder how many watts could be shaved off with a move to 32 nm (maybe 2W?). I also want to see what it would be like playing the original CoD on it too, since you know it's an operating environment the software we already enjoy should work on.

AMD also can't get their quad-core/160 SP versions of these chips out soon enough either. AMD has a performance lead in this segment, and they need to maintain it, since it's one of the few sure things they have at the moment.

No, I don't hate ARM. In fact I find it very interesting (especially Nvidia's Kal-El). Everything I find important as far as computing goes, however, revolves around x86. Exciting times are ahead. ARM and x86 will really butt heads and there is no telling how things may end up at the moment, though there is no stopping x86 in the short term. It's way too powerful to give up.

I agree the quad-core/160 SP version of Zacate will be a great product. My netbook is in need of upgrade next year and that will be what I will be looking for. ARM had a chance to get into desktops and notebooks until Zacate came along. Zacate basically killed any market that is not phones or tablets for ARM.


I think they can get that 5.9 TDP down dramatically over the next 2 generations. This is AMDs first real attempt at the market. In theory the drop to 32 NM should cut TDP nearly in half. That will not include any other power saving improvements they make when they die shrink it. I would hope AMD can get that down to under 2 TDP with in 2 generations of Zacate.

 

[Blitzvogel]

I agree the quad-core/160 SP version of Zacate will be a great product. My netbook is in need of upgrade next year and that will be what I will be looking for. ARM had a chance to get into desktops and notebooks until Zacate came along. Zacate basically killed any market that is not phones or tablets for ARM.


I think they can get that 5.9 TDP down dramatically over the next 2 generations. This is AMDs first real attempt at the market. In theory the drop to 32 NM should cut TDP nearly in half. That will not include any other power saving improvements they make when they die shrink it. I would hope AMD can get that down to under 2 TDP with in 2 generations of Zacate.

To be honest I'm worried that AMD will keep Krishna on a single memory channel. Either AMD will have to raise the memory speeds (less power efficient) or widen the bus (more expensive) in order to not over bottleneck the chip. Either way, such a chip really gets me titillated, if it's up to 2.0 GHz, 160 SP @ 500 MHz, 4 GB DDR3-1333 dual-channel memory, in a very thin 14" notebook.