Arma 3 announced

[BlitzPuppet]

I'm disappointed because it's a game I would love to play, but the character movements and controls are so bad the game feel broken. My major problem is that they are needlessly complicated and if you disagree with that you are an Arma elitist that poo poo's any other game that does something better than Arma.

I can fully tolerate a lot of key combinations in vehicles because vehicles actually have buttons and controls in real life. What I can't stand is walking up to a ladder. Sitting there for 2 seconds thinking about what button I need to press to grab it, having my mouse wheel move at the last second pulling out my pistol. Switching back to my rifle, and then trying again to grab this stupid ladder that in real life I could run up to at a full sprint.

This video illustrates my point nicely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzw2sfNN0Ac

I know it's different in combat gear, but all of these things are possible in a combat load albeit marginally slower. This guy is not stopping to hunt for a button before he begins to do something. The infantry side of the game needs to be more fluid to simulate the experience of being a highly trained soldier. That's something the Arma series fails at miserably if you ask me.

Until we have an ability to interface games with our mind we aren't going to have that level of fluidity. You have to remember that this is the same engine as Operation Flashpoint: Cold war Crisis that they have continually added more features on to. The only thing that has really changed is being able to swim without dying, going under water, graphical improvements, and physics. Everything else is relatively the same. Most games have you run up to a vehicle, press e or f and boom you're in it. Press 1-5 and you switch the positions inside the vehicle. Not in ARMA, you have to go to the corresponding position's door and go in that way once it comes up on your list of acctions(passenger side door to get in on that side). Once you're in the vehicle for the most part you can move between spots by the action list.

But as you described...that would be awesome, I agree. I just don't see it happening anything soon because the core players of ARMA, as am I, are used to it/have adapted.

 

[Stringjam]

Just because you can't play the game with a fucking Xbox controller does not mean the game has "Crappy Controls".

Can we stop the strawman arguments already?

That's not even remotely what I, or several others were even talking about.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Until we have an ability to interface games with our mind we aren't going to have that level of fluidity. You have to remember that this is the same engine as Operation Flashpoint: Cold war Crisis that they have continually added more features on to. The only thing that has really changed is being able to swim without dying, going under water, graphical improvements, and physics. Everything else is relatively the same. Most games have you run up to a vehicle, press e or f and boom you're in it. Press 1-5 and you switch the positions inside the vehicle. Not in ARMA, you have to go to the corresponding position's door and go in that way once it comes up on your list of acctions(passenger side door to get in on that side). Once you're in the vehicle for the most part you can move between spots by the action list.

But as you described...that would be awesome, I agree. I just don't see it happening anything soon because the core players of ARMA, as am I, are used to it/have adapted.

The Arma solution to the control problem is the wrong one is what I'm saying. Instead of simplifying their infantry controls they make them more and more complicated. Needlessly so if you ask me. Their movement concepts are great, but they use needlessly complicated buttons/key combinations to do things.

If it was up to me for instance, instead of holding control and pressing w and s to adjust stance it would be on the mouse wheel. It would be far more intuitive and adjustable that way. Bohemia instead things you need to hold a button down and press either of two buttons up to 5 times to do what could be done with a quick swipe on the wheel. That's the issue I'm concerned with, not that your character isn't a floating camera like cod.

 

[BlitzPuppet]

If it was up to me for instance, instead of holding control and pressing w and s to adjust stance it would be on the mouse wheel. It would be far more intuitive and adjustable that way. Bohemia instead things you need to hold a button down and press either of two buttons up to 5 times to do what could be done with a quick swipe on the wheel. That's the issue I'm concerned with, not that your character isn't a floating camera like cod.

Haven't messed with Alpha that much yet but I would think that you could map the controls to whatever you like (mouse wheel included). Is this not the case? Or are you just using this as one of the many examples that you'd change?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Haven't messed with Alpha that much yet but I would think that you could map the controls to whatever you like (mouse wheel included). Is this not the case? Or are you just using this as one of the many examples that you'd change?

I think you have to hold control down or whatever key is assigned to change stance height. Like I said, there are far more intuitive ways to handle that like just having it be the mouse wheel. It would give more fine grained control, be faster, and far more intuitive to the player.

There are so many different examples of things they could eliminate in the control scheme to make the game more playable. Double tapping for iron sights, holding for zoom etc. If holding to zoom in ironsights is to simulate your real view, then why does the freaking simulation do that the instant you go into iron sights? Instead the simulation simulates a zoomed way out fish bowl that doesn't reflect reality at all.

Perhaps you can change all of that in the controls, but it's all so frustratingly bad that I don't even feel like bothering to fix it.

 

[BrightCandle]

Their are three major cases when you use the iron sights. One is where you are expecting enemy contact close up and you need the gun ready, the other is when taking a longer shot and the final one is while in a defensive or observing mode where you are scanning the area for hostiles.

So now in the case of close up and longer range scanning you want the zoomed out modes, and indeed in close quarters you do not want any additional pain to zoom out. In the one case you are actually zooming in to take a shot you also get your breath held, also on the right mouse button, so it works out its optimised in the right way. However if what you really want is to be zoomed in all the time if you want to. Default key bind is double press numpad + and it will keep your zoom until you cancel it. You only need it sometimes and you have it when you do.

I don't disagree the Arma games have complicated controls, it really does. Some of the keys are bad and the combinations make no sense, but things that need to be quickly accessible usually are. There is just so much to the game and sim that they end up having a lot of keys, like all sims do. If they simplified it to cod level ladder speed running for example the fans of the series would be annoyed, because it takes a little time to stow your rifle. Its one of those features that really doesn't matter as well because you just don't use ladders in Arma much at all.

It just sounds like this isn't the game for you, some people want to be playing a sim like this with mods galore and a lot of detail, along with the complexity that comes with it. Others just want a faster game with smooth simple controls. I play both and I prefer the sim, sounds like you prefer the mainstream shooter.

 

[Sulaco]

You guys new/not very familiar with ArmA have no idea what you're missing out on when it comes to one major thing lacking in most other games:

The community MAKES THIS GAME

This isn't CoD or BF3 with nonsense DLC and controlled crap.

What makes the ArmA games so great is the community support. Dozens upon dozens of mods, literally hundreds of missions, mission packs, tweaks, vehicles, weapons, sounds, everything.

I haven't played a vanilla ArmA 2 or OA mission in literally over a year. There are literally THOUSANDS of community made missions out there, many exceptional, released every single day.

FOR FREE.

Hell, they've already released several minor mods for ArmA 3...the ALPHA! Check it out:

http://www.armaholic.com/list.php?c=files

There are already 144 user made co-op missions (not counting SP and other mission types) released, for free. For an Alpha.

This, more than anything else, is what will make (or break) this game. The "out of the box" content is not even the beginning of the experience.
I can't wait for a few months after release, and see what the community will do.

 

[Grooveriding]

You guys new/not very familiar with ArmA have no idea what you're missing out on when it comes to one major thing lacking in most other games:

The community MAKES THIS GAME

This isn't CoD or BF3 with nonsense DLC and controlled crap.

What makes the ArmA games so great is the community support. Dozens upon dozens of mods, literally hundreds of missions, mission packs, tweaks, vehicles, weapons, sounds, everything.

I haven't played a vanilla ArmA 2 or OA mission in literally over a year. There are literally THOUSANDS of community made missions out there, many exceptional, released every single day.

FOR FREE.

Hell, they've already released several minor mods for ArmA 3...the ALPHA! Check it out:

http://www.armaholic.com/list.php?c=files

There are already 144 user made co-op missions (not counting SP and other mission types) released, for free. For an Alpha.

This, more than anything else, is what will make (or break) this game. The "out of the box" content is not even the beginning of the experience.
I can't wait for a few months after release, and see what the community will do.

The ability to MOD ARMA is what keeps the game interesting and alive. I don't think anyone here is arguing against this or the amount of control options. This is nothing new as ARMA 2 was the same, in fact there are more control options now than before with the new stance adjustments.

The one gripe with ARMA 2/3 is the actual fluidity of how your controls translate to the way your avatar moves in the game. This is something that has always needed improvement and still does in ARMA 3. Nothing wrong with being so passionate about the game, as many are. Allowing that to make you feel like the game is flawless is the issue. It's not and the fluidity of the engine continues to be its achilles heel.

 

[Sulaco]

Nothing wrong with being so passionate about the game, as many are. Allowing that to make you feel like the game is flawless is the issue. It's not and the fluidity of the engine continues to be its achilles heel.

Never once said the game is flawless. And I've personally said countless times it is very flawed, specifically with AI issues, commands, and control.

That being said, there is simply nothing else on the market like it. Period. Nothing even close, really.
That, combined with the vast and active community and additions, make it easier to adjust and adapt to certain issues (namely, fluidity of control) because...well...it's worth it.

Also, for the record, in the hundreds of hours I've put into ArmA 2, stance/infantry control issues have seldom been responsible for my death. I think the issue is overstated. The controls for the most part work fine with the game's flow, speed, and style. It's not a hectic, run'n gun, shoot from the hip shooter, so the controls, while could be better, don't HAVE to be as fast and responsive as CoD to be effective in the game.

 

[BlitzPuppet]

Also, for the record, in the hundreds of hours I've put into ArmA 2, stance/infantry control issues have seldom been responsible for my death. I think the issue is overstated. The controls for the most part work fine with the game's flow, speed, and style. It's not a hectic, run'n gun, shoot from the hip shooter, so the controls, while could be better, don't HAVE to be as fast and responsive as CoD to be effective in the game.

Agreed. Of the MANY times I've died in the ARMA series it's ALWAYS attributed to me or one of my squadmates (mostly me :biggrin running out in the open like a complete moron and getting shot by someone I didn't see.

The game is VERY UNFORGIVING but very immersive as well. Like I said before I truely hope that the community is not splintered by the dumbass zombie mods like ARMA 2 was. Sooo freaking hard to find a Vanilla OA server!

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Never once said the game is flawless. And I've personally said countless times it is very flawed, specifically with AI issues, commands, and control.

That being said, there is simply nothing else on the market like it. Period. Nothing even close, really.
That, combined with the vast and active community and additions, make it easier to adjust and adapt to certain issues (namely, fluidity of control) because...well...it's worth it.

Also, for the record, in the hundreds of hours I've put into ArmA 2, stance/infantry control issues have seldom been responsible for my death. I think the issue is overstated. The controls for the most part work fine with the game's flow, speed, and style. It's not a hectic, run'n gun, shoot from the hip shooter, so the controls, while could be better, don't HAVE to be as fast and responsive as CoD to be effective in the game.

It's OK for the game to play like crap because its slow paced? That is the strangest thing I have ever heard.

 

[Midwayman]

It's OK for the game to play like crap because its slow paced? That is the strangest thing I have ever heard.

Sims are kinda like that compared to arcade games. The control are complex enough that there isn't really a way to make them smooth without a special purpose controler. For arma III you should try it with track IR. That could handle a lot of the stance control issues.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Sims are kinda like that compared to arcade games. The control are complex enough that there isn't really a way to make them smooth without a special purpose controler. For arma III you should try it with track IR. That could handle a lot of the stance control issues.

The whole "SIM" thing makes the horrible controls even more jarring. Unless I'm the only person who can actually control my own body without thinking about it.

Like the video I posted earlier in the thread, a trained soldier is capable of moving through obstacles and doing things without stopping to think about it. I mean to vault an obstacle has it's own button for crying out loud...

Look at bf3, you can jump with one button and vault witht he same button. Now I'm not saying that you need to be able to bunny hop in Arma. I'm saying that the seamless movement in bf3 is far better, and something that Bohemia should be working towards in their games.

 

[Midwayman]

Look at bf3, you can jump with one button and vault witht he same button. Now I'm not saying that you need to be able to bunny hop in Arma. I'm saying that the seamless movement in bf3 is far better, and something that Bohemia should be working towards in their games.

You can walk around and bunny hop with the same number of keys in something like ARMA. The difference being that you have more options. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, but trying to compare something with a ton of options to a simplistic fps really isn't the same thing. Its like comparing a dumb phone to a high end android phone and complaining that the android is too complex.

 

[Childs]

You can walk around and bunny hop with the same number of keys in something like ARMA. The difference being that you have more options. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, but trying to compare something with a ton of options to a simplistic fps really isn't the same thing. Its like comparing a dumb phone to a high end android phone and complaining that the android is too complex.

Not really the same thing. Now, if Android required you to do 3 different gestures to make a simple phone call, then that isnt efficient. And people would complain.

I spent a decent amount of time setting up my ARMA controls to feel like a regular FPS, but eventually I just decided it wasnt worth the hassle. Might have been easier to just delete everything and only configure what I think is necessary, vs trying to make logical sense of all the stuff ARMA wants you to control.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

You can walk around and bunny hop with the same number of keys in something like ARMA. The difference being that you have more options. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, but trying to compare something with a ton of options to a simplistic fps really isn't the same thing. Its like comparing a dumb phone to a high end android phone and complaining that the android is too complex.

The difference being that the dumb phone and android are both intuitive to use. Arma is not.

 

[BlitzPuppet]

The difference being that the dumb phone and android are both intuitive to use. Arma is not.

Phones are engineered to give people access to what they pruchased them for (calling or texting people). Phone companies know people simply don't care what tower, switch, router or what not the call goes through...they just want to talk to people on the other end.

BI wants to give you as many options as possible in game to do what you want to do. Do you want to lean over this much? How about this much? Do you want to bring up your rifle and keep your peripheral view unobscured or do you want to focus on one target and have tunnel view? Do you want to fly the heli alone AND be the gunner or with other squad mates? Do you want your lights on or off? Do you want to accelerate normally or peel out/go as fast as possible?

You just have endless options to choose from and that may put a lot of people off that they just can't press e on a door to open it.

 

[Sulaco]

It's OK for the game to play like crap because its slow paced? That is the strangest thing I have ever heard.

*sigh*

Way to completely miss the point and make up your own definition.
First off, you don't like the gameplay and controls. We got that. That doesn't mean it "plays like crap."
What it means is that the sort of "circle strafe", run full speed while shooting from the hip nonsense that is required to be successful in games like CoD or BF3, is not in ArmA. In fact, it has no place.
Why? Because you play the game differently. Yes, you don't like it. We're all heart-broken. But that doesn't make it crippled, it just means those coming from mindless, brain-dead twitch shooters have to slightly adjust their play style.
I sure did. Once I gave it a few hours, tweaked some buttons, and actually ...you know...played the game, I realized that the control scheme was actually quite well-suited to controlling everything in the game. Perfect? No. Flawless? No. But simply not this butt-hurt inducing rant material that it's being made out to be.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

*sigh*

Way to completely miss the point and make up your own definition.
First off, you don't like the gameplay and controls. We got that. That doesn't mean it "plays like crap."
What it means is that the sort of "circle strafe", run full speed while shooting from the hip nonsense that is required to be successful in games like CoD or BF3, is not in ArmA. In fact, it has no place.
Why? Because you play the game differently. Yes, you don't like it. We're all heart-broken. But that doesn't make it crippled, it just means those coming from mindless, brain-dead twitch shooters have to slightly adjust their play style.
I sure did. Once I gave it a few hours, tweaked some buttons, and actually ...you know...played the game, I realized that the control scheme was actually quite well-suited to controlling everything in the game. Perfect? No. Flawless? No. But simply not this butt-hurt inducing rant material that it's being made out to be.

I'm not asking for bunny hoping and circle strafing. I'm asking to not have to hunt and peck at a keyboard for what should be a menial task to any trained soldier. The ridiculous difficulty of the controls actually goes against the whole "simulation" part of the game.

The hunting and pecking at buttons is great for vehicles because it's actually somewhat based in the reality of controlling a vehicle.

It's complete trash for the infantry combat. Unless you have to hold three buttons down and double tap a fourth to take a piss?

Me I just walk up to the toilet without thinking and go. Again, I'm not talking about rocket jumps, dolphin diving, and no scope jump shots. I'm talking about how jarringly bad your characters interaction and control within the game world are.

 

[Sulaco]

I'm not asking for bunny hoping and circle strafing. I'm asking to not have to hunt and peck at a keyboard for what should be a menial task to any trained soldier. The ridiculous difficulty of the controls actually goes against the whole "simulation" part of the game.

The hunting and pecking at buttons is great for vehicles because it's actually somewhat based in the reality of controlling a vehicle.

It's complete trash for the infantry combat. Unless you have to hold three buttons down and double tap a fourth to take a piss?

Me I just walk up to the toilet without thinking and go. Again, I'm not talking about rocket jumps, dolphin diving, and no scope jump shots. I'm talking about how jarringly bad your characters interaction and control within the game world are.

Which controls exactly are you having trouble with? Are you using any mods?

With infantry, at least, 90% of the time I'm in the "crouched" position, which means when not moving you're kneeling on one knee. When under fire, I almost immediately drop prone. That's one button (Z, I think). When trying to get somewhere in a hurry, not under fire, stand up (C, I think) and run to wherever it is I'm going. If you have to hop over something, "V" for vault. It looks awkward, but the animation takes about a second to complete and is as effective as a "jump" button. It just looks...funny.

Shooting and aiming is as easy as any other game, except for snipers...but that's by design.


The only time the controls have ever gotten frustrating is when trying to command squads and assign specific teams/actions, which can mean navigating through various sub menus. Not a lot of fun when taking heavy fire, and basically has to be memorized.

Other than that, the controls just don't feel that unintuitive. 99% of the time, the frustration comes from ordering the often times brain dead AI in the heat of combat, but that's an AI thing, not control.

 

[JDNIGHT]

With infantry, at least, 90% of the time I'm in the "crouched" position, which means when not moving you're kneeling on one knee. When under fire, I almost immediately drop prone. That's one button (Z, I think). When trying to get somewhere in a hurry, not under fire, stand up (C, I think) and run to wherever it is I'm going. If you have to hop over something, "V" for vault. It looks awkward, but the animation takes about a second to complete and is as effective as a "jump" button. It just looks...funny.

Shooting and aiming is as easy as any other game, except for snipers...but that's by design.


The only time the controls have ever gotten frustrating is when trying to command squads and assign specific teams/actions, which can mean navigating through various sub menus. Not a lot of fun when taking heavy fire, and basically has to be memorized.

Other than that, the controls just don't feel that unintuitive. 99% of the time, the frustration comes from ordering the often times brain dead AI in the heat of combat, but that's an AI thing, not control.

I couldn't agree with this post more.

I havent played ARMA 3 yet, but I did play the original FlashPoint, ARMA 1 and ARMA 2. If you are having difficulty with the 'complex' controls, my guess is you may not realise that this is a game first and foremost about making good, smart decisions. Fast moves and reflexes rank a distant second.

That last part is what really seperates this game from so many other FPS.

 

[Lonbjerg]

The whine got taken elsewhere now:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=34794031#post34794031

Hillarious!

 

[BlitzPuppet]

Anyone know what the 300mbish patch was for yesterday?

 

[BrightCandle]

Well we know they introduced a bug that causes the server to crash if anyone throws 2 grenades. Beyond that some performance improvements client side and some class name changes. We were expecting a lot of our bugs fixed as they were marked in the tracker as done but actually nothing we reported has actually been fixed.

All in all a bit of a bad update, they should have rolled back.

 

[Midwayman]

I wonder if they will add occulus support? That would be seriously awesome with arma.