(Article) The Sad State of Religion

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Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
There are bad things religion has also taught (all kinds of intolerance), but holy wars is a bad point of contention.


Of course it is because millions of people were killed. Do you think we would have had said holy wars if religion didn't exist?

The inquisition would've gone something like this:

DO YOU BELIEVE IN MAGNETS? NO?! Here's a metallic pear up your rectum.

DO YOU HAVE BLUE EYES? YES!? Sit in this iron maiden for a little bit
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,581
0
0
I assume you mean the Republican party. If that were true, why did the Republicans nominate McCain? To the best of my knowledge, he's not an evangelical.

He's (conveniently) Baptist. Whether Evangelical or not, he sure as hell bent over backwards to appease them during his campaign. He's for teaching intelligent design in schools, he's said the constitution declares this a Christian nation and he's against gay marriage.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,077
136
Of course it is because millions of people were killed. Do you think we would have had said holy wars if religion didn't exist?

The inquisition would've gone something like this:

DO YOU BELIEVE IN MAGNETS? NO?! Here's a metallic pear up your rectum.

DO YOU HAVE BLUE EYES? YES!? Sit in this iron maiden for a little bit

We would have had the wars, but they would have been for some other reason .. land, nationalism, magnets, blue eyes, etc.. Religion was the vehicle for those acts of aggression, not the cause. The fact that it could have been replaced by any other random belief/idea is further proof that it wasn't religion in and of itself that caused the wars.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
We would have had the wars, but they would have been for some other reason .. land, nationalism, magnets, blue eyes, etc.. Religion was the vehicle for those acts of aggression, not the cause. The fact that it could have been replaced by any other random belief/idea is further proof that it wasn't religion in and of itself that caused the wars.

Your assumption is that the population would have approved of the wars if it weren't for religion

ie John Q. Public agrees that we should have a crusade because our next door neighbor is a bunch of fucking infidels

John Q. Public might not agree to such a crusade if the reasoning was "because we don't like them"

So I find your statement "The fact that it could have been replaced by any other random belief/idea" false because you have no way of proving this.


Besides, a land grab is usually just a land grab. It doesn't involve torturing people until they believe in your god.
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,581
0
0
We would have had the wars, but they would have been for some other reason .. land, nationalism, magnets, blue eyes, etc.. Religion was the vehicle for those acts of aggression, not the cause. The fact that it could have been replaced by any other random belief/idea is further proof that it wasn't religion in and of itself that caused the wars.

That's the point. Religion is just another category of tribalism. Humans don't need more reasons to kill each other. And when you have God on your side, you can justify a lot of shit.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Bullshit. He plainly said *these* things are good so I'll give religion credit for those, but with *these other things* (which were bad but also done in the name of religion) I'll baselessly assert that the perpetrators weren't "True™ Believers" so religion can't be blamed.

The events were unrelated to the religion. It's not a matter of "true believers" as you say. They weren't believers at all. The catholic church is famous as an example of a religion that doesn't believe in what it says it believes in. The crusades were completely unrelated to Christianity.

Doing things in the name of religion isn't the same as being a result of said religion. That doesn't mean religions that advocate violence can't exist. Most religions don't, that's my point. I don't know of a single war that is actually a result of a religion rather than being blamed on it. Christianity is about social welfare, so any actions outside the boundaries of social welfare are unrelated. Therefore, only good can come from it. The bad things that people do are unrelated. Yes people can exploit a religion, but the evil intentions are not a result of any dogma of the religion and therefore cannot fault the religion. You can even argue that some stories in the bible showed Jews did a lot of things that were not appropriate to their religion. They were still Jews, but their actions weren't a result of the religion.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
Here is part of the point that Cerpin is trying to make with his No True Scotsman fallacy.

Religious people only selectively see what they want to see within their religion. If they are good people and believe their religion is all good, then that is what they will selectively see. When they see an ugly wart on their religion they fail to process that and write it off as something else.

The thing is, Christianity as a religion is defined by the Bible, however many times it has been re-written or added to in the case of Mormons for example. The religion of Christianity is what is laid out in their little book. The problem is that book is filled with good stuff and bad stuff when it comes to "teachings" for humans. When you have two people read the book and what teachings to go off of they have several different things they can follow. They can follow only the good, or what they perceive to be good. They can follow only the bad thinking it's good. Or they can follow it all because it all has to be good.

Those that are following the good but see someone following the bad write them off as not a "true" Christian because they selectively see only the good.

But the Bible, like damn near all religions thus far to date, are filled with hate, death, war, rape, slavery, and other morally questionable activities. When you get someone that gets an idea into their head like say Hitler, that believe he is the new Christian champion that is doing God's will by eradicating all Jews, you later have ever Christian that will claim he was never a Christian. They see only the "love and peace" portions of the bible and think anyone that deviates from what the perceive as the "true" version of Christianity as non Christians.

Part of the reason that there are sooo many different sects of Christians and why they used to all fight and war with each other.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,127
1,604
126
I am offended at why prostitutes are ranked so low. They are merely service providers. I see no reason why it should not be legal and regulated, and why they should be looked down upon in society. It's a shame that even after 200+ years, we are so damn puritanical an a society.
 

LtPage1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2004
6,315
2
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From 1980 to 2005 in the Southern Baptist Church, baptisms of people between eighteen and thirty four – in other words, their next generation of leaders – fell 40 percent, from 100,000 in 1980 to 60,000 in 2005.

That's awesome. This article gives me hope in a political climate that sometimes seems bleak and hopeless.
 
Aug 8, 2010
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He's (conveniently) Baptist. Whether Evangelical or not, he sure as hell bent over backwards to appease them during his campaign. He's for teaching intelligent design in schools, he's said the constitution declares this a Christian nation and he's against gay marriage.

Gee, a politician that bends over backwards to appease his base. Shocking!
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,581
0
0
Gee, a politician that bends over backwards to appease his base. Shocking!

Hey, you're the one who asked why he got nominated. The real point of my original post was: why are Evangelicals the base of the party when they make up such a small part of the population?
 
Aug 8, 2010
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Hey, you're the one who asked why he got nominated. The real point of my original post was: why are Evangelicals the base of the party when they make up such a small part of the population?

Maybe they aren't such a small part of the population.

Do you think they shouldn't be allowed to vote?
 
Aug 8, 2010
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Liberal churches are dying, conservative churches are growing. It's been going on for years. It isn't like this is breaking news.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
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Religious people only selectively see what they want to see within their religion. If they are good people and believe their religion is all good, then that is what they will selectively see. When they see an ugly wart on their religion they fail to process that and write it off as something else.

Your perception in the matter, just as the person you are trying to defend, is invalid. If the actions of an individual do not relate to the dogma of the religion his actions are attributed to then you cannot say his actions are the result of that religion. Calling someone a Christian serial killer is a contradiction of terms.

The thing is, Christianity as a religion is defined by the Bible, however many times it has been re-written or added to in the case of Mormons for example.

But they aren't Christians. They are Mormons. They make the distinction and so should you. Any similarities are just that, similarities. You can't have two opposing religions and call them the same thing.

But the Bible, like damn near all religions thus far to date, are filled with hate, death, war, rape, slavery, and other morally questionable activities.

Won't get any argument from me or any other Christian on that. But again, your perception is flawed. You think that we believe that since it is in the bible that it is good. There's lots of horrible things in the bible that are in no way taught as good things. The bible has lots of history in it and it does nothing to hide the bad parts of it. The bible is not there to condone those things, only to display them.

Part of the reason that there are sooo many different sects of Christians and why they used to all fight and war with each other.

Fight and war? No true Christian would do that :awe:
 

LtPage1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2004
6,315
2
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Maybe they aren't such a small part of the population.

Do you think they shouldn't be allowed to vote?

That's an interesting question. Is it true that you were raised as a Nazi, and in fact hate America?

You should be a Fox News interviewer. You're very quick at ignoring questions asked of you, and responding with absurd character attacks disguised as rational discourse. "I'm just asking questions!"


But they aren't Christians. They are Mormons. They make the distinction and so should you. Any similarities are just that, similarities. You can't have two opposing religions and call them the same thing.:
They believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. This is one of the craziest things that religious people do; I've heard evangelical friends of mine be shocked that I would call a Catholic "Christian." Every crazy little sect has its own rules about who's "actually" Christian, who's going to heaven, etc. It's not sane. What about "mainstream" Christianity is less crazy than Mormonism? Here's that brick wall of misunderstanding: They're all equally arbitrary, fictitious, and made up by some ambitious (or crazy, or both) men.
 
Last edited:
Aug 8, 2010
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That's an interesting question. Is it true that you were raised as a Nazi, and in fact hate America?

You should be a Fox News interviewer. You're very quick at ignoring questions asked of you, and responding with absurd character attacks disguised as rational discourse. "I'm just asking questions!"

Form a cogent question for me and I'll try to respond.

Please point out an absurd character attack that I've made.
.
 

LtPage1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2004
6,315
2
0
Form a cogent question for me and I'll try to respond.

Please point out an absurd character attack that I've made.
.

You asked if he thought they shouldn't be allowed to vote; of course he doesn't think that. Did you read the article that started this thread? I have no idea if its numbers are accurate, but it claims that evangelicals make up ~7% of the population in this country. I find that surprising, given that their perspective seems to be 80% of what we hear spewing out of "conservative" politicians and the most popular cable news network in America.

I don't have any questions for you, I'm only making observations.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
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They believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. This is one of the craziest things that religious people do; I've heard evangelical friends of mine be shocked that I would call a Catholic "Christian." Every crazy little sect has its own rules about who's "actually" Christian, who's going to heaven, etc. It's not sane.

I can understand maybe being an outsider you wouldn't see the differences, you probably don't study it at all. It was already pointed out that Mormons made their own holy book. They have beliefs contradictory to Judaism and Christianity. Same with Catholicism. Catholicism has beliefs that are explicitly declared wrong by Jesus himself. The whole point to the term Christian was that it was applied to Jews that followed Jesus. If these other religions contradict the teachings of Jesus you can't call them Christian. That's not sane. A study of cults and the bible make this very clear so it's completely understandable if you've never studied any of it. They are completely different religions.
 

MrWizzard

Platinum Member
Mar 24, 2002
2,493
0
71
RAMBLE RAMBLE RAMBLE RAMBLE

I think I just disproved every point made in this thread.

Ramble Ramble Ramble. The Internet is a great place for religious debate, especially if you prove the other sides wrong by calling them uneducated, I know lots of people who when called stupid suddenly believed the point the opposing side was making.

Who wants the soap box next?
 

CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
1,809
0
76
I can understand maybe being an outsider you wouldn't see the differences, you probably don't study it at all. It was already pointed out that Mormons made their own holy book. They have beliefs contradictory to Judaism and Christianity. Same with Catholicism. Catholicism has beliefs that are explicitly declared wrong by Jesus himself. The whole point to the term Christian was that it was applied to Jews that followed Jesus. If these other religions contradict the teachings of Jesus you can't call them Christian. That's not sane. A study of cults and the bible make this very clear so it's completely understandable if you've never studied any of it. They are completely different religions.

Absurd. Take issue with Mormonism's orthodoxy (and unique ridiculousness) if you wish, but Catholicism is definitively a Christian faith. This false division is symptomatic of the No True Scotsman fallacy of which you have been accused. By your standards, there is no true Christian faith -- especially since the teachings of Jesus as communicated by the Bible are themselves often contradictory and morally hollow.
 

DanDaManJC

Senior member
Oct 31, 2004
776
0
76
Yeah another thing that gets me about christianity is that only positive testimonies of born-again christians are legitimate.

Any negative testimonies simply don't count because those people aren't "true christians". this is the exact same style of double standard that cerpin is arguing against.

Don't forget that the testimony is the #1 method used by evangelists to convert people.
 
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