AS Issue, MODS Pleeze LOCK

[Richardito]

<< Perhaps the reason it seems that Nevin and I may have similar ideas is that we may know a bit more about what is really going on than you care to admit. Attacking a product and claming it?s dangerous without adding the disclaimer that it?s when people don?t follow instructions is irresponsible and or reeks of a personal agenda ?---The product is plain dangerous because you can fry your video card with it and that's a fact.? Not only is this irresponsible it borders on a being a libelous statement.

Forgive me for my typing skills, kW/ m-1K-1 is K(1000) watts divided by (meters * 10 to the -1 power) * (degrees Kelvin * 10 to the -1 power) is off by a factor of 10 compared to W/mK. It?s been 20 years since I had to deal with units at this level. At first glance they appeared correct. I should have quoted them as W/mK as the obviously are. I am not a practicing engineer. It has been over 20 years since I went to school to become one and upon leaving school, I pursued a more financially rewarding career in sales, management and manufacturing. Unit booboos aside, this does not change the facts. The thermal conductivity numbers I quoted are still within a few insignificant points of those that both you and Nevin quoted. The proportions and conclusions are still the same. Silver has more than 10 times the thermal conductivity of zinc oxide. Look it up in your Perry's Chemical Engineers' Handbook and post the numbers.

Also please note that I have not tried to twist the facts by suggesting standardized tests that don?t exist be run to resolve the question at hand. >>



What's going on? By your posts I can tell you have no idea what's going on. Yet again you are wrong when it comes to basic concepts. 'kW/mK' is off by a factor of 1000 when you compare it to 'W/mK' (W/1000= kilo Watts). You still don't post your sources at all... Stop wasting our time with meaningless words.

***&quot;It isn't worth fighting a battle of wits with an unarmed man...&quot;***

 

[MrThompson]

<< What's going on? By your posts I can tell you have no idea what's going on. Yet again you are wrong when it comes to basic concepts. 'kW/mK' is off by a factor of 1000 when you compare it to 'W/mK' (W/1000= kilo Watts). You still don't post your sources at all... Stop wasting our time with meaningless words.
>>



My error in units does not undermine the basic concept. As I stated the numbers should have been posted in W/mK. BTW, 1000 divided by 10 to the first power times 10 to the first power is 10 not 1000.

Your refusal to deal with the subject and consistent personal attacks reveal that you have little more of substance to say in the matter.

 

[Skiracer]

Hey kids, lets play nice. There is no room in these forums for personal attacks, or for that matter, personal agendas. If you have a problem with a product, let's discuss it rationally and scientifically. I have read this entire thread, and it seems to me that Ruchardito has some personal issues to work through. Maybe it's the Jarhead coming through, because I can state from experience that it isn't the Chemical Engineering training that is driving him. Although it adds absolutely NOTHING to this discussion, I am a Chem E and I work woth several other Chem E's and I rarely see the pompus attitude that Richardito seems to exude. As to the issues here, arguing over units is STOOPID- the relative conductivities of the compounds is what is important for COMPARISON (as long as the same units are used for each compound)! The reason Richardito is using the conductivity of Zinc rather than Zinc Oxide is because his reference (Perry's Chem Eng Handbook) doesn't have it! (At least not the fifth edition that I have). In order to find the thermal conductivity of Zinc Oxide (ZnO) you need to go to the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. Here are the thermal conductivities of several PURE compounds at 100 degrees F (applicable to this discussion) in the units of Btu/(hr)(sq.ft.)(deg F/ft):

Nickel: 543
Zinc (metalic): 746.07
Aluminum: 1540
Gold: 2060
Copper: 2700
Silver: 2900
(Ref. Perry's Chemical Engineer's Handbook, 5th ed., pp 23-38 thru 23-53)

It is clear that the thermal conductivity of Silver is the highest of the readily available metallic elements. Now for Zinc Oxide- here are the thermal conductivities for Zinc Oxides using the SAME units and temperature as those used above:

ZnO (Yellow): 16.8
ZnO (grey): 13.6
(Ref. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 56th ed., pp E-5)

These numbers are for ZnO solid ceramic, and may not be representative of the conductivities for the ZnO powders used in thermal greases. However, it is abundantly clear that as a thermal (or electrical) conductor, metal oxides s*ck! So with that out of the way, we are back to the original problem- is using a potentially electrically conductive thermal compound risky? If you follow the directions, the answer is NO (personal experience). If you are sloppy and don't use the product with care, then you MAY risk having a problem. If you accidently get AS where it shouldn't be CLEAN IT OFF (see previous threads, but my preference is WD40 and a Q-tip followed by a very good cleaning with Isopropyl alcohol to remove the residual WD40- personal experience from being a sloppy idiot).

Now for a challenge for you makers of thermal compounds and heatsinks- the thermal conductivity of solid Type II Carbon is 4 TIMES higher than for Silver! (CRC p E-12). See if you can utilize that material and really take the market by storm!

 

[RobsTV]

Geeze, what a waste.
There is enough info in these forums as to the use of AS.
Many can't live without it, some don't see much difference.
As with anything, if it is applied or used incorrectly, problems &quot;may&quot; occur.

Your chances of damaging a video card are probably greater during the process of removing an old HS from the card than they are by applying compound &quot;incorrectly&quot;. People that fail to read or follow instructions are to blame for many problems, not the product, if it includes proper instructions, such as AS does include.

Nevin is definetly NOT pimping AS, and seems to be here to help misguided users when possible.

 

[baldy]

Conductive, definately. I don't care what solution it is carried in, there is enough silver in the compound at the density it is mixed to conduct or short out a precious bridge (the wrong ones all at once), resulting in CPU death. It happens sometimes slowly, and other times is happens with a quick snap, crackle, and pop, sometimes followed by the smell of burning electrical stuff.

I have a funeral home with two slot A tbirdies and two slot A Athlons, all failed due to very stupid applications of Arctic Silver and in combination with a copper shim (I was doing direct core attachments with modified Alpha P125's). Some times it takes awhile (color me real dumb), and it can be expensive.

Argue all you want, it isn't going to change the end results of using too much ASII. Leave it on and you can enjoy the slow/quick death of your CPU.

Properly applied, though, it is the stuff and will lower CPU temps a few degrees Celcius. Claims of more are probably due to a problem with the original heatsink installation, whether it had a factory goo heatpad or dust bunnies...................................

baldy

 

[BIGGDOG]

Please get some dish soap and a toothbrush and clean it.

 

[Mikewarrior2]

No Baldy,

Claims of more are done with P3 and internal idode readings, where tests are shown to have 4-7C drops WHEN DOING INTERNAL DIODE tests. When doing socket-thermsitor or even side-thermistor, despite on a CPU of twice the wattage, this difference drops to 2-4C. When done on a p3 w/socket-thermistor MB, the change also drops lower, this time to 1-2C.

So the only way to accurate compare heatsink greases is with internal diode tests, period.


Mike

 

[Carlton]

Mr. Thompson,

Could I please see your references on your data that you have presented in this forum. I have checked all of my reference books with the data that has been provided on this thread. With out going into a long discussion on chemistry, it looks like everyone is wrong except Richardito. I would like to see your references books. This would aid in my review. I find this kind of work interesting and rewarding for my own personal satisfaction of learning. It puzzles me that you are will not produce references that you are using. Here are mine:

Synthetic Organic Chemistry
Lange's Handbook of Chemistry Thirteenth Edition
The Merck Index Tenth Edition

These are the only references that I have used so far. Just so you guys know. I have seen numbers slightly different from book to book.

By the way, I think companies should be ban from the forums period. They should not have the right to advertise their products here. Yes that is what they are doing. Some people are calling it great technical support which it is. It is nice of Nevin to come here and help but it is to fatten his wallet. Say what you will. People like me who are trying to learn more are influenced by people like Nevin for financial reasons and not for what these forums are designed for. If he wants to provide great tech service, why not from his own web page? It is not right that he is allowed to waste peoples time with his biased information. Mr. Thompson, please state the other forums that you attend and where I can find them also. Thanks Colin.

 

[MrThompson]

My reference is A.L. Edwards &quot;A Compilation of Thermal Property Data for Computer Heat-Conduction Calculations&quot;, UCRL-50589, University of California Lawrence Radiation Laboratory

 

[WarCon]

Out of morbid curiousity Carlton, I was wondering specifically what you feel Mr. Thompson has wrong and Ricardito has right. If you are talking about the difference in the thermal conductivities then one thing really needs to be made clear. Zinc and Zinc Oxide are two very different &quot;real&quot; world substances, much like Hydrogen and Water(H20). Zinc Oxide, as Ricardito has stated, isn't conductive (electrically) but Zinc is, but it also isn't very thermally conductive either where Zinc at least is almost in aluminum's range.

It is only the very small amount used between the die and heatsink that keeps it from being an insulator.

 

[clarkmo]

AS2 rocks! It's nowhere near as dangerous as screwdriver based infernal hs clamps. More damage has been done to more hardware with screwdrivers,pliers,shims, etc. than any hs compound (except maybe epoxy of any sort) If your careful with as2 you'll be fine.If your careful with your screwdriver you might still end up with a hole somewhere you don't want one.

Ref. Book of Experience by me pub. 2001

 

[Spankthru]

Clarkmo, LOL good one. I am happy to report that Dish soap did the trick
and my Duron 750 is running smooth as a cheap whore's *ss on my ABIT KT7A.
33 idle, 45 C full load. I know Socket A temps are skewed, but There is a relative
temp range it stays within.


At ease everybody though!

 

[Richardito]

<< Now for a challenge for you makers of thermal compounds and heatsinks- the thermal conductivity of solid Type II Carbon is 4 TIMES higher than for Silver! (CRC p E-12). See if you can utilize that material and really take the market by storm! >>



You are absolutely right, Graphite has a thermal conductivity of 1,000 W/mK. This is about 4 times the value for silver, 424 W/mK. Some old heat sinks actually have graphite pads in the area where the CPU contacts it. I also know that the conductivity of graphite is dependent on the orientation of the graphite- perpendicular or parallel to the surface. I'm already implementing this idea on developing a high-performance thermal grease. Let's see what happens in the future.

Take a couple of minutes and read the inital posts in this forum. I didn't 'attacked' anyone, I simply disagreed to untrue statements. I'm just trying to stop a steady flux of misinformation propagated by a couple of forum members. For the record, I know that AS is better than a ZnO based product. I've never denied that! My experience was that my max CPU temperature went down by 2ºC after applying it. What I've been trying to communicate is that AS (silver) is electrically conductive, period. And this is dangerous and can damage your CPU or Video Card. This is a know fact and not urban legends, as some people are claiming. Why do they deny the reports? Because they have an economical stake in it... plain and simple economics. You are right, I have a vendetta, but a good one. A vendetta towards misinformation and the BS's that supply it. And right now I'm in 'defense mode', standing up for the facts. I loath people that call others liers and deny simple facts of science. I also question the background of people that cannot explain units, question my background/education, don't state the source of their information, and dodge all of the technical questions. On the positive side I've done a lot of extra research now, which is good for me.

 

[Richardito]

<< Regarding copper thermal compounds, I have tested only one. It was worse than Radio Shack grease by 2C. >>



How could that be if the thermal conductivities of silver and copper are practically the same? There is nothing else in the product that can significantly affect the heat flux.

 

[Richardito]

<< My reference is A.L. Edwards &quot;A Compilation of Thermal Property Data for Computer Heat-Conduction Calculations&quot;, UCRL-50589, University of California Lawrence Radiation Laboratory >>



You are a bit late with this information.

 

[Richardito]

<< No Baldy,

Claims of more are done with P3 and internal idode readings, where tests are shown to have 4-7C drops WHEN DOING INTERNAL DIODE tests. When doing socket-thermsitor or even side-thermistor, despite on a CPU of twice the wattage, this difference drops to 2-4C. When done on a p3 w/socket-thermistor MB, the change also drops lower, this time to 1-2C.

So the only way to accurate compare heatsink greases is with internal diode tests, period.


Mike >>



Now you are attacking Baldy (and defending AS). Typical.

 

[compuwiz1]

Why don't you guys let this die? Those of us who value Arctic Silver II will continue to use it. Those who do not know how to properly apply it, please take the time to learn to do so (I believe this was what the thread was about). Arguing here is not going to help anything.

The bottom line is, it is some of the premium thermal paste on the market at this time, and the reputation is well deserved. We can thank Nevin for the R&amp;D, as well as bringing us the product, not to mention the amount of time he spends supporting the people who use the product.

 

[Mikewarrior2]

Can someone explained where I attacked Baldy? And how stating the TRUTH is wrong?

Richardito, I'm sick of your petty attacks on AS and your claims of your own greases Magic. Obviously you are a manufacturer now and you should not post anymore either. You are obviously here to downgrade another product and &quot;pimp&quot; your own. So either release a product, test AS properly, or shut the hell up.



Mike

 

[Richardito]

<< Can someone explained where I attacked Baldy? And how stating the TRUTH is wrong?

Richardito, I'm sick of your petty attacks on AS and your claims of your own greases Magic. Obviously you are a manufacturer now and you should not post anymore either. You are obviously here to downgrade another product and &quot;pimp&quot; your own. So either release a product, test AS properly, or shut the hell up.



Mike >>



You simply have an attitude. I guess you are now following the same tactics as Mr. Thompson. I was already wondering when you will jump in the wagon... You are just repeating what someone else has already stated in a post against a member of the 'AS mob' (you know who you are). There is a clear pattern in all of your posts. I'm not manufacturing anything, I just love working in my lab and that's a fact. BTW, I make a living discovering new things and applying theory to practice. I'm sick of you attacking people because they stated facts that doesn't favors your blatant agenda. I'm not downgrading anything, I'm just stating the truth. I guess the thruth is hard on some of us...

P.S. Why is the 'AS mob' so afraid of me?

 

[compuwiz1]

<< P.S. Why is the 'AS mob' so afraid of me? >>



Fear? Now don't delude yourself, or give yourself that much credit.

This thread should be locked by now. It's accomplishing nothing.

 

[Richardito]

<< This thread should be locked by now. It's accomplishing nothing. >>



I agree with you 100%.

 

[MrThompson]

<<

<< P.S. Why is the 'AS mob' so afraid of me? >>



Fear? Now don't delude yourself, or give yourself that much credit.

This thread should be locked by now. It's accomplishing nothing. >>



Oh come on now, there is still the humorous aspect to what is really going on here!

 

[compuwiz1]

<< Oh come on now, there is still the humorous aspect to what is really going on here! >>



MrThompson, I will grant you that. It's gettin pretty deep in here though.

 

[Mikewarrior2]

I agree,

this thread is totally pointless... You've got one bum claiming to be fighting the AS &quot;mob&quot; because he's done extensive testing with incorrect measurement methods spewing crap about a product and about the person who researched and made the product, and still takes the time to come to various forums to HELP users out.



Mike

 

[Carlton]

I have to correct myself. I was wrong in saying that Richardito was right. He was absolutely wrong about zinc. My mistake. I am human and that mistake was mine.

Richardito,
Could you please state your numbers again about ZnO? This would verify the data I'm collecting.

As I stated in another thread, I will probably use the white goop that came with my heat sinks. I will be running a VP6 board with dual PIII&quot;s over clocked of course. I don't think that I would benefit from Artic Silver, but I admit that if I was going to build an amd sys that it may be a different story. The amd CPUs do run hotter right?

I have to agree with some of the forum here. This BS should stop but would like to continue with the discussion on thermal compounds with out any manufacturers being present. If you read the thread, I've asked some questions that were never answered and if I did the same I apologize and will.

Does anyone here use any other thermal compound with success? Maybe I should start a thread on that? My VP6 board came in today. The only thing I have to do is purchase a thermal compound. I asked the initial question about conductivity and did not intend to stir up so much sh*t!

Mr. Thompson and Nevin please answer my questions that I asked earlier and did not get an answer for.

Nevin,
Why not engineer a product that has almost zero conductivity and without the threat of shorting even if your customers make a mistake and screw up their stuff. As a consumer, I would like to see this. Also, I&quot;m also hearing that Artic Silver II can void warranties on aluminum heat sinks. Is this true? My heat sinks are aluminum.

Mr. Thompson,
What are the other forums you attend? I would like to know.

These questions are simple and not attacking anyone. I am here to learn not antagonize anyone. I hope the customer support here is as good as I've been hearing about AS. Maybe I can go to their web site like I suggested and ask these questions.