"Ashcroft: Confederates were 'patriots' without a 'perverted agenda'

[Subversal]

Well okay. I am merely stating fighting for your country is idiotic. On the other hand fighting for freedom is another. Some people just fight and say "GO USA" or "VIVA LA FRANCE"... others fight against injustice and the perservernce of freedom. A patriot is no different then a lousy jock rooting for his team just because hes on it. You may find Wilde and Shaw as just "bizzare" but I see them as extraordinary writers and love many of their works. And being bizzare is not a bad thing and doesn't discredit their beliefs or mine. Sure war is sometimes neccessary, but fight not for the good ol' US of A but fight for your family, fight for your freedom etc.

 

[BoberFett]

<< fight for your freedom >>

Uhhhh, clueless? The south wanted to secede from the nation. They were fighting for their freedom.

 

[GreenBeret]

Alright biotch, now you've done it. Don't go calling someone proud of their heritage a redneck. The ancestors for my entire familt fought in the civil war, and we are dam proud of it. Even if you were joking, I'm still pissed.

 

[AndrewR]

Hey Fuxclams, get over yourself.

 

[Subversal]

I was not commenting on the South's reasons for fighting the war. I was commenting on patriotism. Basically patriotism is pride... and I feel it is wrong reason to wage war. I can totally understand a Confederate fighting for his rights. I know patriotism can mean other things. Like his country represents his ideals and beliefs (freedom)... thats why they fight for it. Common patriotism is a bane to the world... wherein a true patriot wouldn't shed blood over the smallest of quarrels.

 

[Shuxclams]

Ooooh, andrew said a naughty word. Redneck, tralier trash, cousin humping, squirrel eating retard. Thats for all you &quot;southern folk&quot; who &quot;gots them a rabel flag fly'n in ther yard and a sticker on ther truk&quot;









SHUX

 

[MagnificentFist]

The revisionism of history is inevitable. The greater the distance from memory, the more 'facts' are distorted and reconstructed -thus the phrase 'history is written by the victors'. The Civil War, I mean, let's be honest people - The Civil War was about what the Revolutionary War was about and every other war in the past two hundred years. Property. Land. The fact is the south had a different economic infrastructure and was very much frustrated with competing with the North. Slavery was a pivota but not total part of the War's onset. The real facts, the real way to gauge what was happening is to read the recorded speeches by politicians and journalists of that time. Things were just as bad then as now politically. A lot of mudslinging and invective *cough* - but what's interesting is that the majority of politicians could really care less about slavery and were at best moderates on the issue (just like both parties vie for the center today) and the South was was building up decades' worth of resentment. They wanted to expand south and west and to hell with tariffs and taxes, they failed to get the men they wanted elected for president at the time (How they pined for the likes of Andrew 'I admire the Indians..after I kill them' Jackson), and they were getting fed up competing with northern industrial economy - relying heavily on exporting/relation with foreign powers to maintain theirs. In the end , they chose to secede in order achieve some of these goals. Just plain politics. But by the time it filters to the masses it becomes patriotism. People just don't learn. The Japanese felt the same way about the Empire of the Sun, a lof of germans about the Nazi party, etc. The ideals and goals of the masses are never related to the goals of the party/government which seeks their allegiance - and whenever this does happen and the part bends backwards to implement a movement for the people, they're called liberals or socialist or communist. It's the catch 22 of politics. Same thing happened in Jamaica where i was born. I think subversal's quotes are right on.

 

[MagnificentFist]

BTW I do not mean to imply Southerners or the confederacy as fascists per my analogy in previous posts. the analogy applies to both sides. The North has written history and the south feels like they were cheated of the truth as well as other things, but the truth condemns both sides.

Magnificent Fist

 

[BoberFett]

Color me impressed. Stick around MagnificentFist, we need some level heads around here.

 

[UnixFreak]

pretty ridiculous. Must hide his white sheets in the closets for weekends. Surprised this guy has all his teeth.

 

[PCAddict]

There were many honorable men on both sides during the Civil War. That is often overlooked.

I feel that an American from the southern states is entitled to own/display a Confederate flag if they wish. It's part of their heritage. All of this political b.s. regarding the Confederate flag being removed from the Capitol in South Carolina and from the state flags of Georgia and Mississipi makes me sick. History must not be forgotten. Those who think that the Civil War was fought over slavery needs to educate themselves a bit more.

 

[chess9]

I don't have any respect for Ashcroft and hope he gets at least a modicum of heat from the Senate. He is way out of touch with mainstream America. (So am I, but I'm not running for anything but time.)

One little benefit might be a few federal judges approved by the Senate in exchange for an easy pass on Ashcroft. Of course, Helms the Hittite must be satisfactorily negotiated.

Ho hum, we'll see.

 

[Shuxclams]

MagnificentFist,
Excellent post, now if we as a nation can convince the racists to stop using the &quot;Confederate Flag&quot; as a banner of &quot;their&quot; rebellion and then maybe those folks outside of this &quot;southern culture&quot; will start to see the flag for what it represents, whatever that is.







SHUX

 

[MagnificentFist]

Well, the issue of the flag is dicey but the fact is that for a large percentage of those states' populations (in particular african-american, but also Native American and sympathiserz) the flag has little or no value and in fact represents - from THEIR perspective mind you - an oppressive or unkind era in history. Don't forget that time did not stop for the South after the Civil War, the Confederacy was just as strong in sentiment if not in name in antebellum South and frankly, the South treated the newly liberated slaves HORRIBLY. I recommend looking at newspapers and periodicals and speeches from that time. This is not to say the North was some sort of freedman's heaven...but the south was particularly cruel. I feel that if Reconstruction had been kinder to slaves, Native Americans,and even caucasians who were not without a solid agricultural base (very much a source of animosity towards the 'others' - and the beginning of the oh so invisible and never on TV news for killing and stealing, (just us Knee-gros) WHITE TRASH...sorry, i admit i have some issues there : ( ), then I would feel more sympathetic to letting the flag stay, but people are not stupid (well...) and they know of all the connotations that have been attributed to that flag over time - Let us not forget that the flag rose to an unprecedented national pride and prominence after the release of the loathsome film &quot;Birth of a Nation&quot; ( I highly recommend people to rent it - to understand race in america AND its development - or lack thereof - with Technology and Innovation, see it!) along with the KLAN. This is not a 'minor' occurence. This is a moment of a particular group or culture re-identifying and recontructing its hisorical base while at the same time contemporizing it. This particular era is just as much a part of the flag now as the antebellum days, as the war, as the days before the war. It may be convenient to forget the cultural assignation, the meanings that have been prescribed to the flag - meanings that we are ALL aware of - but you have to admit, to Deal with the ENTIRE package/ the whole social baggage. THIS is EXACTLY wrong with American cultural politics and politics in general, be it issues of race, gender, class.

the significant percentage of those states' populatiuons therefore have a right to request its removal - i'm not saying that this justifies or says it HAS to be removed, but those people sure as hell have the RIGHT to have it removed.

That Linux post was funny

 

[MagnificentFist]

woops, repeated myself - had to edit.

Magnificent Fist

 

[Subversal]

<< I think subversal's quotes are right on. >>



Thank you MagnificentFist. I believe in those quotes too. So many recent wars are due to &quot;patriotism/nationalism&quot;.

 

[Cowboy]

The really sad part is that if you do read the speeches and writings of the day you will find Lincoln really did not care about the slaves. All Lincoln cared about was perserving the Union and becuase the north needed the south where as the south could sell thier raw goods to any one.

It is funny all those liberal yankees calling us rednecks, trailer trash and billybobs but yet they end up down here to earn a living by working for us off of our prosperity in the south and midwest.

Makes the phrase &quot;Happiness is a Northbound Yankee&quot; more meaningful every day.

 

[Shuxclams]

<< earn a living by working for us off of our prosperity in the south and midwest >>



Uh, California outproduces all the south and the mid-west combined......and were smarter, prettier and not as inbred.









SHUX

 

[MagnificentFist]

I meant Unix, the UNix freak post was funny.

heh

Fist

 

[Cowboy]

Since when was California a part of anything other than the land of fruit and nuts?

 

[MagnificentFist]

Aww..SHUX

Yep Lincoln just wanted to do whatever was necessary to keep the Union together. However, Cowboy, the fact is Republicans like to tout his name just as falsely as a means to 'diversify' or to mitigate any claims of their party being just being for the 'good 'ol boys'.

Fist

 

[MrPALCO]

Ashcroft is the first open signal that what was promised in the election, is what we will get.

If you voted for that agenda, rejoice, the next 8 years will benefit the innocent

If you did not, wail and gnash teeth, because , the Outlaw has been stripped of Governmental power. It is time to pay up.

 

[MagnificentFist]

Cowboy, how is it the North needed the south? I'm not picking on you. I just want clarification. Raw goods? Is that why?

Let's face it though. It goes both ways. If the South intended to take off in agriculture, they eventually would have needed to invest in manufacturing and industry as well as banking/corporate funding in order to increase capital. They would only have lasted for so long economically unless they had really cheap or even free labor. oops, i forgot.

They did.

: )

Fist

 

[Shuxclams]

[/b]MagnificentFist Wins that round









SHUX

 

[Cowboy]

Mag, Agreed.

But as Connie Rice said the republican party did more for blacks in the south then the democratic party did. If I remember correctly was it not the republicans who labored to register blacks too vote in the south.