Ashes of the Singularity User Benchmarks Thread

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Feb 19, 2009
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You keep on quoting a source that has an AMD logo on their front page, was closely aligned with AMD for mantle, and later for DirectX12 as if they have complete veracity.

You are free to go ad hominem and attack Oxide. Maybe NV should keep doing that too.

But until proven otherwise, I have no reason to doubt Oxide's statements or their ethical standards (the same cannot be said of NV PR).

As for the source, they clearly stated they know situations exist where DX12 will be slower than DX11, they mentioned that. This is against people who say its impossible.. why? DX12 is new. The game uses async compute/shaders. Do YOU know for a fact/100% that Maxwell 2 is perfectly capable without a performance loss?

Nope. None of us do, only NV & people making DX12 game engines are privy to that info.

But let me ask you, what if its true, that Maxwell 2 is gimped when it comes to these DX12 async features? Does that matter to you? It doesn't matter to me one iota because I'm on GCN. It's just an interesting discussion point, no more, no less.
 
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Feb 19, 2009
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If this was such a big deal, I think NVidia would have already done so for Maxwell..

Here you are, hindsight. What about 3-4 years ago when Maxwell was designed & planned? Would NV know that a Mantle-like API would form the basis of next-gen DX12?
 

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
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From everything I've been able to discern, the Grid Management Unit (or GMU) is a system that works in tandem with HyperQ to increase parallelism as much as possible by prioritizing workloads dynamically, even to the point where it can pause them or hold pending or suspended grids..

So having one GMU shouldn't matter, as all it's doing is dynamically managing which grids to be sent to processing.

It's a single unit. A single block. A single block is not as Dynamic or Parallel as 8 separate units. This single unit is also limited in the amount of queues it can prioritize when compared to the competition. Maxwell2 is thus not nearly as Parallel, as a matter of fact, as GCN 1.1 (290 series)/GCN 1.2. There is no disputing this. It is a hardware fact.



If this was such a big deal, I think NVidia would have already done so for Maxwell.. The entire process is very dynamic with Maxwell, so adding another GMU wouldn't likely make a big difference considering that the GMU can pause active, or hold pending or suspended grids.

It is only a big deal if you have games which make use of the amount of Parallelism that Ashes of the Singularity use. nVIDIAs response, to the Ashes benchmark, points to the fact that nVIDIA doesn't believe that Ashes of the Singularity is an overall good example of future DX12 titles. This is likely the same logic on which they based their decisions when building Maxwell2.



Also Fury X has a big bandwidth advantage on the GTX 980 Ti which becomes more pronounced at higher resolutions, particularly when MSAA is thrown into the mix. So it's not surprising that the Fury X would gain an edge at 4K when MSAA is being used..

Fury-X only has a big bandwidth advantage on paper. In practice, however, nVIDIAs compression algorithms even up the score. See here: http://techreport.com/review/28513/amd-radeon-r9-fury-x-graphics-card-reviewed/4



Since Ars Technica showed that a 290x can nearly match a GTX 980 Ti, and after looking at that memory bandwidth graph, we can tell that memory bandwidth is not what grants the Fury-X its lead.

Since a 290x can nearly match a GTX 980 Ti and a GTX 980 Ti is a near match to a Fury-X then we can conclude that the 290x and the Fury-X are a near match under Ashes of the Singularity. This points to a common bottleneck between both Hawaii and Fiji architectures.

So we have to look at the nature of Ashes of the Singularity. Ashes of the Singularity does two things in a big way.

1. Makes ample use of Asynchronous Shading.
2. Draws MANY units onto the screen (requiring many Triangles or Polygons).

Since both Fury-X an the 290x share the same Asynchronous Compute Engines, but with Fury-X having more compute resources at its disposal, then we can conclude than if Asynchronous Shading and Compute resources was the bottleneck for Fiji and Hawaii... we'd see Fiji fairing better than Hawaii. this is not the case.

Since both Fiji and Hawaii retain the same amount of Hardware Rasterizers (and the same Peak Rasterization rate expressed in Gtris/s) we can conclude that both are bottlenecked by their Peak Rasterization rate (ability to draw triangles/polygons).

Since the GTX 980 Ti has a much higher peak rasterization rate, we would expect the GTX 980 Ti to overpower the Fiji and Hawaii cards, this is not the case. Therefore we can conclude that the GTX 980 Ti is being limited by its Asynchronous Compute capabilities. We can test this hypothesis by looking at another benchmark: Star Swarm. Which draws many triangles/polygons onto the screen but which makes no use of Asynchronous Shading.



Just as expected.

Fiji and Hawaii are bottlenecked by their Peak Rasterization rates under Ashes of the Singularity while Maxwell 2 is bottlenecked by its ability to handle Asynchronous Shading.

That's my conclusion.
 
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shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
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You are free to go ad hominem and attack Oxide. Maybe NV should keep doing that too.


There is a saying about those that live in glass houses...

You might want to check up on that seeing as how you started an entire thread about ARK Survival Evolved that was essentially one huge ad hominem attack on Nvidia and Gameworks titles.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2439041&highlight=


In the real world software development houses align themselves with the big chip makers to get support they otherwise couldn't get.

This is absolutely normal and happens between different companies within many different industries. But trying to look at one of these companies products as an indicator of general performance compared to a non-aligned products is at best misleading.


For example, Oxide / Stardock / AMD are clearly closely aligned, as this is right on their front page.


 

dogen1

Senior member
Oct 14, 2014
739
40
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Fiji and Hawaii are bottlenecked by their Peak Rasterization rates under Ashes of the Singularity while Maxwell 2 is bottlenecked by its ability to handle Asynchronous Shading.

That's my conclusion.

4 billion triangles a second is a bottleneck? That's 133 Million per frame at 30 fps.

I don't think there were that many ships.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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You might want to check up on that seeing as how you started an entire thread about ARK Survival Evolved that was essentially one huge ad hominem attack on Nvidia and Gameworks titles.

The difference between your attack against Oxide and mine against GimpWorks:

You would have a point IF and WHEN GameWorks source code is freely available to all IHVs. No? Well, no comparison to Ashes of Singularity and NONE against the ethical standards of Oxide. You would also have a point IF and WHEN Oxide have proven themselves to be a bunch of liars (like Nv's 3.5GB 970, or just in the past few days, blaming Oxide for their own DX12 MSAA driver bugs).

Moving on/back to topic.
 
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VR Enthusiast

Member
Jul 5, 2015
133
1
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In the real world software development houses align themselves with the big chip makers to get support they otherwise couldn't get.

This is absolutely normal and happens between different companies within many different industries. But trying to look at one of these companies products as an indicator of general performance compared to a non-aligned products is at best misleading.


For example, Oxide / Stardock / AMD are clearly closely aligned, as this is right on their front page.



To get the true picture you have to analyse what they are saying.

Nvidia isn't saying "AMD and Oxide are close partners" or "AMD paid Oxide" or anything like that.

What they said (after a weak MSAA excuse that was proven false) was that AotS won't be representative of a normal DX12 game.

They are probably right in that AotS won't be representative of a normal DX12 game, but that was still an admission that they lack the hardware capability to do this kind of thing properly.
 

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
0
0
For example, Oxide / Stardock / AMD are clearly closely aligned, as this is right on their front page.


Irrelevant.

Ashes of the Singularity is a DirectX 12 Benchmark which tests two primary rendering factors:

1. Asynchronous Shading Capabilities
2. Peak Rasterization rate.

It just so happens that, hardware wise, nVIDIA is limited in #1 and, hardware wise, AMD is limited in #2.

That's it. You can take your tinfoil hat off now.
 
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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
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Some people just baffle me. They can swallow years of subpar DX11 performance but moment NV ignores an older series of cards they need to be burned down.

The only subpar DX-11 performance with AMD GCN Cards was only in Mantle titles. In those Titles AMD GCN Cards running on Mantle are far better than NVIDIA Cards running DX-11.

Current GCN cards are far better in DX-11 titles than NVIDIA Kepler cards. HD7950/70 1GHz (r9 280/X) are way faster than GTX670/80 in latest DX-11 games. Not to mention Mantle and DX-12.

So for the last 3 years the AMD GCN cards seems to be the better buy.
 

Azix

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2014
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Agreed. If AMD was smart, they'd want their users to upgrade (they need the money right now).

However, your posts made me think of something:
Nvidia - "artificially" inhibits Kepler through Gameworks - "riot time!"
AMD - "artificially" inhibits DX11 through "GCN was designed for DX12/this API" - "AMD IS THE BEST!!!"

Some people just baffle me. They can swallow years of subpar DX11 performance but moment NV ignores an older series of cards they need to be burned down.

The difference in dx11 performance was never so pronounced in most games. even if dx11 performance was subpar it rarely was a significant issue. One game comes to mind in all that time and it was ProjectCars that showed this type of impact.

I do expect AMDs dx11 performance will be low in dx12 games from now on since it seems the way those are made might expose the limitations in dx11 that they do not circumvent.
 

dogen1

Senior member
Oct 14, 2014
739
40
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Anyone seen a plausible reason why ashes performs better under dx11 on nvidia cards?

A number of possible reasons, maybe all of them at the same time.

Nvidia has extensive DX11 optimizations in the driver that(perhaps difficult for game developers to outperform with dx12)

The game's own dx11 path is also more heavily optimized due to years of work on it., and or the dz12 path is not too well optimized for nvidia GPUs yet.

Nvidia chokes on dx12 to the point where they actually lose performance.

Last one is a joke.
 

Azix

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2014
1,438
67
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I am near damn certain that if there was no Asynchronous Shading going on, the GTX 980 Ti would walk away with a large lead over the Fury-X just as it does under Star Swarm.

Ashes of the Singularity can thus be considered, imo, a Asynchronous Shading benchmark. I doubt we will see this degree of Asynchronous shading under most DX12 titles but I could be wrong.

This depends on what kind of comparisons are to be made. 980 ti without asynchronous compute vs fury x with it? neither with it? What is being done with asyn woudl still need to be done somehow, so performance would drop on both possibly more than it does on maxwell with compute on.

I am curious if there any graphical differences between dx11 and 12 for this. They often said this and that wasn't possible on dx11 so it would be strange if they were identical (eg. light sources not being differently created)
 

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
0
0
Anyone seen a plausible reason why ashes performs better under dx11 on nvidia cards?

DirectX 11 vs. DirectX 12 performance

There may also be some cases where D3D11 is faster than D3D12 (it should be a relatively small amount). This may happen under lower CPU load conditions and does not surprise us. First, D3D11 has 5 years of optimizations where D3D12 is brand new. Second, D3D11 has more opportunities for driver intervention. The problem with this driver intervention is that it comes at the cost of extra CPU overhead, and can only be done by the hardware vendor’s driver teams. On a closed system, this may not be the best choice if you’re burning more power on the CPU to make the GPU faster. It can also lead to instability or visual corruption if the hardware vendor does not keep their optimizations in sync with a game’s updates.

nVIDIAs DX11 driver replaces lower performing code with higher performing code through driver interventions (like executing a different shader command than what the game demanded). This can improve performance if you have the CPU cycles left over to perform the intervention. A Higher clocked CPU appears to grant nVIDIA this ability.

nVIDIA have a long history of work in this field starting with the GeForce FX series.
 

Azix

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2014
1,438
67
91
I had said that AMD needs to improve the dx11 performance for the future, but I just realized... they have mantle. It's unlikely they will optimize for this game in dx11 then. Whenever they have mantle and dx12 as options they will use dx12 for win 10 and mantle for the rest. In the end their dx11 performance doesn't matter for gcn cards in this
 

Azix

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2014
1,438
67
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Oxide games was formed up in late 2013. This is their first major game. We will see how their ethics hold up.

formed from industry veterans that worked at microsoft and firaxis. They also seem to consider past engine experiences as applicable here claiming it took 3 engines and 6 years to reach the point they are now IIRC.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
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formed from industry veterans that worked at microsoft and firaxis. They also seem to consider past engine experiences as applicable here claiming it took 3 engines and 6 years to reach the point they are now IIRC.

Are you trying to draw a connection between Microsoft and individuals working at Microsoft?

Individuals are not the same as companies. If MS tells an engineer to work on optimizing their OS for Internet Explorer and to not spend time (that they are paying them for) on testing the effect on other browsers, is the engineer bias? Of course not. He/she is doing their job.

You mix up people and corporate entities as if they are the same thing. Maybe (likely) Oxide has easier back-line access to AMD engineers to consult on optimizations. Maybe they assigned more engineers to work on the AMD optimization. Maybe AMD assigned more resources to help Oxide. Maybe Nvidia saw them as on the other team so didn't work with them as closely as they work with others.

Point being we are not talking about a person we're talking about a company, with its own strategies and its own self-interests.
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
106
Irrelevant.

Ashes of the Singularity is a DirectX 12 Benchmark which tests two primary rendering factors:

1. Asynchronous Shading Capabilities
2. Peak Rasterization rate.

It just so happens that, hardware wise, nVIDIA is limited in #1 and, hardware wise, AMD is limited in #2.

That's it. You can take your tinfoil hat off now.

Right and nVidia is faster with DX11 than AMD with DX12. :awe:

That DX12 is slower than DX11 on nVidia says so much about this benchmark. Explain how it is possible that a much better API is slower than a 6 years old one. How can a API with better CPU management, better memory management, better GPU management be slower than DX11?
 

SPBHM

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
5,058
410
126
I'm curious if anyone tested (DX11 more specifically) it with an older Nvidia driver since I think the reviews were using a version released with optimizations for it
 

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
0
0
Right and nVidia is faster with DX11 than AMD with DX12. :awe:

Umm No... the Fury-X is faster than the GTX 980 Ti overall. The 290x is a tad slower than a GTX 980 Ti. I wouldn't call that "nVIDIA is faster".




That DX12 is slower than DX11 on nVidia says so much about this benchmark. Explain how it is possible that a much better API is slower than a 6 years old one. How can a API with better CPU management, better memory management, better GPU management be slower than DX11?

I already did in a post above that one.


From Oxide:

DirectX 11 vs. DirectX 12 performance

There may also be some cases where D3D11 is faster than D3D12 (it should be a relatively small amount). This may happen under lower CPU load conditions and does not surprise us. First, D3D11 has 5 years of optimizations where D3D12 is brand new. Second, D3D11 has more opportunities for driver intervention. The problem with this driver intervention is that it comes at the cost of extra CPU overhead, and can only be done by the hardware vendor’s driver teams. On a closed system, this may not be the best choice if you’re burning more power on the CPU to make the GPU faster. It can also lead to instability or visual corruption if the hardware vendor does not keep their optimizations in sync with a game’s updates.

nVIDIAs DX11 driver replaces lower performing code with higher performing code through driver interventions (like executing a different shader command than what the game demanded). This can improve performance if you have the CPU cycles left over to perform the intervention. A Higher clocked CPU appears to grant nVIDIA this ability.

nVIDIA have a long history of work in this field starting with the GeForce FX series.
 
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sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
106
So, Oxide hasnt optimize the engine for nVidia hardware and now it is nVidia's job to fix this mess?

Yeah, not a great explanation...
 
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