Ask a Christian anything

[FS]

@AreaCode since OP is not hardly answering any questions: you mentioned Christ rising from the dead is your personal reason for him being divine and other such related stuff. You demonstrated quite some knowledge about Christianity in that response and other similar posts in the past. Are you able to demonstrate anything even close to this much know-how about any other world religions? Have you studied them with this much rigor and then used your free will to decide Jesus is more divine and his religion is the one you should be following. Do you know that the rising-from-dead-divine-act has been demonstrated by religious figures in other religions(top 10 world religion, just to give you a hint so you can go update your knowledge) and as such those figures are just as divine. Why would you choose Jesus over other such figures(and yes, according to their stories there were first hand observers as well). Are you being honest to yourself or simply living a lie?

Jews or Arabs?

Arab Jews

 

[AreaCode707]

How do you know that he really rose from the grave? What evidence is there that the Bible is true instead of a much more likely story that someone really just nabbed the body? Really, how do you know? The Bible can't be corroborated in any way.

You can't use the Bible to prove itself.

Not going to engage in debate with you too long since we are both long established frenemies on this topic and you know my Facebook name. But to answer this round:
- I personally don't think the firsthand witness dedication to their belief system would have lasted even a week after his crucifixion if all they had to go on was an empty grave. Immediately upon his death they were at risk of being considered religious apostates or political rebels and could have been arrested by either set of authorities. Not sure an empty grave in a politically and religiously charged situation would have been enough to draw them into speaking out like they did.
- Evidence for the truth of Biblical content cannot be proven by secondary sources, indeed. However, the literary veracity of the text from a purely historical standpoint, in the same way we would validate the Iliad and the Odyssey for instance, is of much higher quality than other historical documents.

Not claiming this is an unbiased source but I think the data on the site is pretty well corraborated.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html

[SIZE=-1] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Author and Work[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Author's Lifespan[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Date of Events[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Date of Writing*[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Earliest Extant MS**[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Lapse: Event to Writing[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Lapse: Event to MS[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Matthew,
Gospel[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 0-70?[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]4 BC - AD 30[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]50 - 65/75[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 200[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]<50 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]<200 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Mark,
Gospel[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 15-90?[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]27 - 30[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]65/70[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 225[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]<50 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]<200 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Luke,
Gospel[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 10-80?[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]5 BC - AD 30[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]60/75[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 200[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]<50 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]<200 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]John,
Gospel[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 10-100[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]27-30[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]90-110[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 130[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]<80 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]<100 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Paul,
Letters[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 0-65[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]30[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]50-65[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 200[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]20-30 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]<200 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Josephus,
War[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 37-100[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]200 BC - AD 70[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 80[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 950[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]10-300 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]900-1200 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Josephus,
Antiquities[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 37-100[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]200 BC - AD 65[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 95[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 1050[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]30-300 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]1000-1300 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Tacitus,
Annals[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 56-120[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]AD 14-68[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]100-120[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 850[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]30-100 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]800-850 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Seutonius,
Lives[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 69-130[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]50 BC - AD 95[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 120[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 850[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]25-170 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]750-900 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Pliny,
Letters[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 60-115[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]97-112[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]110-112[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 850[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]0-3 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]725-750 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Plutarch,
Lives[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 50-120[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]500 BC - AD 70[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 100[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 950[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]30-600 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]850-1500 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Herodotus,
History[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 485-425 BC[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]546-478 BC[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]430-425 BC[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 900[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]50-125 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]1400-1450 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Thucydides,
History[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 460-400 BC[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]431-411 BC[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]410-400 BC[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 900[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]0-30 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]1300-1350 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Xenophon,
Anabasis[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 430-355 BC[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]401-399 BC[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]385-375 BC[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 1350[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]15-25 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]1750 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Polybius,
History[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 200-120 BC[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]220-168 BC[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 150 BC[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]ca. 950[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]20-70 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]1100-1150 years[/SIZE][/FONT] [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] *Where a slash occurs, the first date is conservative, and the second is liberal.
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]**New Testament manuscripts are fragmentary. Earliest complete manuscript is from ca. 350; lapse of event to complete manuscript is about 325 years.
[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]
That says nothing whatsoever about the content of the document being fact or fiction, but the literary quality of the doc combined with the verifiable historical growth of the Jewish offshoot sect that became Christianity as driven by firsthand witnesses is compelling enough for me. Like I said originally, people are not usually willing to give up everything, be arrested and killed for something they know or suspect to be a lie.
[/SIZE]

 

[AreaCode707]

@AreaCode since OP is not hardly answering any questions: you mentioned Christ rising from the dead is your personal reason for him being divine and other such related stuff. You demonstrated quite some knowledge about Christianity in that response and other similar posts in the past. Are you able to demonstrate anything even close to this much know-how about any other world religions? Have you studied them with this much rigor and then used your free will to decide Jesus is more divine and his religion is the one you should be following. Do you know that the rising-from-dead-divine-act has been demonstrated by religious figures in other religions(top 10 world religion, just to give you a hint so you can go update your knowledge) and as such those figures are just as divine. Why would you choose Jesus over other such figures(and yes, according to their stories there were first hand observers as well). Are you being honest to yourself or simply living a lie?

I've done a moderately extensive study into other world religions, with more focus on the atheist and agnostic sides of the coin since I find them more plausible in general than other religions, primarily for their consistency. So no, I wouldn't say that my world religions knowledge matches up with my knowledge on Christianity, but I do think I know more about any given religion than the average man on the street.

From what I understand, the level of tribulation the firsthand witnesses endured in Christianity is not matched by firsthand (though certainly matched by secondhand and beyond) witnesses in other religions where there was a "divine" act that the entire religion hinges on.

Several other world religious I find to be self-contradictory in ways that I do not personally encounter with Christianity. Others are predicated on theories of human behavior that I observationally find to be false (humans are basically good, for instance. Religions that rely on the idea of self-empowerment for the improvement of the human state seem to go against the demonstrated grain of humanity on both an individual and societal level.)

Lots of reasons and details but your closing sentence suggests to me that you're more interested in stating your case than listening to mine anyway, though I could be reading you wrong.

 

[zinfamous]

Holy shit. To think I was going to avoid this thread for obvious reasons which means I almost missed all of Nemesis 1's post.

Inoright?

the last thing you want to do is stumble into a religion thread on ATOT, but then, you risk missing some gold from some of our most colorful members.

 

[zinfamous]

Dang. I think Areacode just kicked some ass in this thread.

/wine

 

[Nik]

Not going to engage in debate with you too long since we are both long established frenemies on this topic and you know my Facebook name. But to answer this round:
- I personally don't think the firsthand witness dedication to their belief system would have lasted even a week after his crucifixion if all they had to go on was an empty grave. Immediately upon his death they were at risk of being considered religious apostates or political rebels and could have been arrested by either set of authorities. Not sure an empty grave in a politically and religiously charged situation would have been enough to draw them into speaking out like they did.
- Evidence for the truth of Biblical content cannot be proven by secondary sources, indeed. However, the literary veracity of the text from a purely historical standpoint, in the same way we would validate the Iliad and the Odyssey for instance, is of much higher quality than other historical documents.

Not claiming this is an unbiased source but I think the data on the site is pretty well corraborated.[SIZE=-1]
That says nothing whatsoever about the content of the document being fact or fiction, but the literary quality of the doc combined with the verifiable historical growth of the Jewish offshoot sect that became Christianity as driven by firsthand witnesses is compelling enough for me. Like I said originally, people are not usually willing to give up everything, be arrested and killed for something they know or suspect to be a lie.
[/SIZE]

So? There are a lot of crazies in the world. Look at the Nazis. :awe: :biggrin: (You knew it was going there )

You can't use the Bible to prove itself.

 

[sandorski]

Ever notice that Hollywood movies Based upon Real Events/People are highly embellished? Ever notice that the people who wrote the Bible are are a very large part of Hollywood?

 

[soulcougher73]

Thank you for taking the time to answer all of those questions, AreaCode707. Hopefully it gives everyone something to think about.

If only she had answered mine :'(
But at least she tries unlike the lame OP.

 

[HeavyD]

Not going to engage in debate with you too long since we are both long established frenemies on this topic and you know my Facebook name. But to answer this round:
- I personally don't think the firsthand witness dedication to their belief system would have lasted even a week after his crucifixion if all they had to go on was an empty grave. Immediately upon his death they were at risk of being considered religious apostates or political rebels and could have been arrested by either set of authorities. Not sure an empty grave in a politically and religiously charged situation would have been enough to draw them into speaking out like they did.
- Evidence for the truth of Biblical content cannot be proven by secondary sources, indeed. However, the literary veracity of the text from a purely historical standpoint, in the same way we would validate the Iliad and the Odyssey for instance, is of much higher quality than other historical documents.

Not claiming this is an unbiased source but I think the data on the site is pretty well corraborated.[SIZE=-1]
That says nothing whatsoever about the content of the document being fact or fiction, but the literary quality of the doc combined with the verifiable historical growth of the Jewish offshoot sect that became Christianity as driven by firsthand witnesses is compelling enough for me. Like I said originally, people are not usually willing to give up everything, be arrested and killed for something they know or suspect to be a lie.
[/SIZE]

Is all of this really necessary to say "I don't know" but I want to believe it's true?

 

[dpodblood]

Thanks Areacode.


Ok next question; If god created humans, he also created human nature. Why then is it human nature to be evil and selfish? Why has god created us in a way which makes in inherently difficult to enter the kingdom of heaven?

 

[WelshBloke]

Do you take the bible literally? I'll stick to the new testament. I consider myself a believer, but I my view is that the bible was written by human beings, and although it holds much wisdom and witness, some of it seems a bit sensational to say the least. Here is one that I have a hard time with:

Matthew 27 verse 51: (death of Jesus)

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus? resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Okay, so it says MANY people were raised from the dead? Don't you think that's pretty significant? Who where these people? Did they die a 2nd time? I think that this would be a huge deal, but glossed over and swept under the rug. When Jesus raised Lazarus, that was a big enough deal that he did that. But this takes the cake! Thoughts?

Whoa! How come no one mentioned a Zombie army before!

That's awesome, youre not making it up are you?

 

[Thebobo]

Does God really hate fags?

 

[sdifox]

Explain this please

#178890 +(13836)- [X]
*** Now talking in #christian
-Word_of_God- Welcome Abstruse to #christian I am a Bible Bot. For more info type: /msg Word_of_God !info
<Abstruse> !kjv numbers 22:21
<Word_of_God> Numbers 22:21 -- And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ass, and went with the princes of Moab. - (KJV)
*** SageRider sets mode: +b *!*@c211-30-208-111.rivrw3.nsw.optusnet.com.au
*** Word_of_God was kicked from #christian by SageRider (Please dont Swear)
<Abstruse> I know I'm never going to be able to come back in this channel again after this, but damn was it worth it to see that...

 

[Analog]

Whoa! How come no one mentioned a Zombie army before!

That's awesome, youre not making it up are you?

Not made up, a direct quote.

 

[AreaCode707]

Whoa! How come no one mentioned a Zombie army before!

That's awesome, youre not making it up are you?

Personally, I like the old testament passage where some rowdy teen boys make fun of a guy for being bald so he summons up a couple of bears to eat them.

 

[AreaCode707]

Is all of this really necessary to say "I don't know" but I want to believe it's true?

Also known as, "the burden of proof is sufficient for me but I know it isn't sufficient for many other people so I'm not being a Bible thumper about it." If I push hard for my beliefs, I'm a crackpot and if I willingly admit the that while I feel there is strong evidence there is a variance between that and provable fact (hence why we're having a discussion about faith and not fact) then I'm a loon. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

I haven't insulted anyone for their inclination against belief, and yet you want to pigeonhole me for my inclination for belief. Who's pushing who here?

 

[ultimatebob]

So... what do you have planned for this Saturday?

 

[AreaCode707]

So? There are a lot of crazies in the world. Look at the Nazis. :awe: :biggrin: (You knew it was going there )

You can't use the Bible to prove itself.

You know full well the deaths of those primary witnesses are not documented in the Bible. That data on the deaths and final testimonies from all the martyred firsthand witnesses is entirely from extra-Biblical sources.

The other argument you make neither of us can back up with anything substantial enough to sway the other's mind, so it's kind of a dead end.

 

[SlickSnake]

Will Fred Phelps go to Heaven?

 

[AreaCode707]

So... what do you have planned for this Saturday?

Making the best damn sangria ever for a friend's birthday party.

 

[Atreus21]

Now that the obligatory sarcastic-but-impossible question has been asked...

Epicurus summed it up nicely. "Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" In other words, there are a few possibilities: God is unworthy of the title (impotent), God is an asshole (wicked), or God doesn't exist. So, either God isn't worth knowing or they don't exist. Either way the issue of gods is moot. So, why do you believe otherwise?

Or, God allows us free will, which necessarily includes the possibility that we will do evil.

Apart from that argument, if pain is proof that God is either an asshole, impotent, or nonexistent, what is pleasure proof of?

 

[Atreus21]

Thanks Areacode.


Ok next question; If god created humans, he also created human nature. Why then is it human nature to be evil and selfish? Why has god created us in a way which makes in inherently difficult to enter the kingdom of heaven?

Because the alternative is to be a puppet master.

 

[dpodblood]

Because the alternative is to be a puppet master.

That doesn't really answer my question. God had a choice when created human nature. He could have created us to be selfless and empathetic. In general that is not the case.

 

[AreaCode707]

Because the alternative is to be a puppet master.

Either that or he DID create us with a sinless nature. Hint: "Just as sin entered the world through one man..."

Gotta run to work and then travel.

 

[Arcadio]

Uhh... guys, you're forgetting the the Bible was written by people. It's the message of God, but it was ultimately written by people. Yes: imperfect beings wrote the Bible.